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Hi Dakka, just want a rules clarification and to see whether my interpretation is correct.

Scenario:
A character is successfully hit with a Destroyer weapon.
On the subsequent roll, a 2-5 is rolled (D3+1) wounds.

A) Can Look Out Sir rolls be taken?
B) Can Look Out Sir rolls be taken if the result on the Destroyer Weapon Chart is a 6? (Little unsure as you don't get the opportunity to make a saving roll in this scenario).
C) If answer's to A and B are yes, would (1) the character make Look Out Sir rolls until they lost their last wound or until all wounds have been resolved (whichever comes first), or (2) the character make one Look Out Sir roll and if successful, pass all the wounds onto the model that sacrifices itself?

My personal opinion is that Look Out Sir rolls may be taken in both scenarios (as it is not a save).
In regards to multiple wounds, I think the correct way to resolve it is (1).

Sorry if this is confusing and thanks in advance

The character can pass it on to his underlings, even though it will not receive a save of any type. Form multiple wounds, resolve each wound as a LOS like you would normally. You were correct.

You can LoS on a 6. as it only says "no saves of any kind may be taken". LoS isn't a save. On a 2-5, LoS can be a great tactic for keeping a multi-wound, well kitted character model in the game, as excess wounds from D weapons are lost, rather than allocating to another model.

You cannot LoS any of the destroyer results.

they are not a wound pool like normal shooting.

The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1.

As it is an affect targeted to the model that takes the hit, once a hit is assigned for a model by rolling the result that is what the model suffers, there are no allocated wounds.

this is the same reason if you hit an unit of 1 wound models with a D weapon and roll three 1's and a single 4 then roll a 3 on the D3 the 3 wounds are all suffered by the same model and not three models suffering 1 wound.

blaktoof wrote:
You cannot LoS any of the destroyer results.

they are not a wound pool like normal shooting.

The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1.

As it is an affect targeted to the model that takes the hit, once a hit is assigned for a model by rolling the result that is what the model suffers, there are no allocated wounds.

this is the same reason if you hit an unit of 1 wound models with a D weapon and roll three 1's and a single 4 then roll a 3 on the D3 the 3 wounds are all suffered by the same model and not three models suffering 1 wound.

I disagree. The D Table determines how many wounds the model that takes the hit suffers, and the destroyer rules establishes that excess wounds are lost, and don't move to the next model. No language in it precludes a LoS. "The Model" in this case refers to the model that eventually takes the hit. But you can still LoS to shift that hit to a different model.

Wounds from D weapons are not "allocated", they are "suffered". Can you LoS a Perils of the Warp?

The problem is destroyer results create wounds suffered by a model.

There are no allocated wounds, and as per LoS:

When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he is allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt.

You only have permission to LoS wounds that are allocated to the character.

Fragile wrote:Wounds from D weapons are not "allocated", they are "suffered". Can you LoS a Perils of the Warp?

blaktoof wrote:The problem is destroyer results create wounds suffered by a model.

There are no allocated wounds, and as per LoS:

When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he is allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt.

You only have permission to LoS wounds that are allocated to the character.

There is still a wound being allocated, it is simply a destroyer wound, one that causes more than one wound to be lost.

You can't LoS perils, for the same reason you can't LoS Gets Hot, because the wound is coming from the model itself and only affects that model.

allocated wounds come from when firing at an unit normally, you roll to hit, then roll to wound versus toughness/ld or whatever depending on the attack.

The total wounds are put into a pool and then allocated to models. If a wound is allocated to a character it can be LoSed on certain rolls for certain rules.

For D weapons there is no rolling to wound, and no generation of a wound pool. There are no wounds allocated to models, instead there are hits generated that create roll results on a table against models that are hit.

Each model suffers the effect of the roll, if there is one.

There is no allocation of wounds from a wound pool to models, which is the only way LoS works.

I agree results of 6 cannot benefit from LO,S. However remember that this does not override the core rules for model removal which can mitigate the damage similar to LO,S.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Fragile wrote:Wounds from D weapons are not "allocated", they are "suffered". Can you LoS a Perils of the Warp?

blaktoof wrote:The problem is destroyer results create wounds suffered by a model.

There are no allocated wounds, and as per LoS:

When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he is allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt.

You only have permission to LoS wounds that are allocated to the character.

There is still a wound being allocated, it is simply a destroyer wound, one that causes more than one wound to be lost.

You can't LoS perils, for the same reason you can't LoS Gets Hot, because the wound is coming from the model itself and only affects that model.

The wound from Perils is coming from a psychic test, the wound from Gets Hot is coming from a weapon. Both use the term "suffers" which is the same as D weapons. So anywhere in the D weapon rules where a model is "allocated a wound" and you can LOS it. Otherwise, no.

Fragile wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Fragile wrote:Wounds from D weapons are not "allocated", they are "suffered". Can you LoS a Perils of the Warp?

blaktoof wrote:The problem is destroyer results create wounds suffered by a model.

There are no allocated wounds, and as per LoS:

When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters, and there is another model from the same unit within 6", he is allowed a Look Out, Sir attempt.

You only have permission to LoS wounds that are allocated to the character.

There is still a wound being allocated, it is simply a destroyer wound, one that causes more than one wound to be lost.

You can't LoS perils, for the same reason you can't LoS Gets Hot, because the wound is coming from the model itself and only affects that model.

The wound from Perils is coming from a psychic test, the wound from Gets Hot is coming from a weapon. Both use the term "suffers" which is the same as D weapons. So anywhere in the D weapon rules where a model is "allocated a wound" and you can LOS it. Otherwise, no.

Except that the wound is being allocated. D weapons are still shooting or close combat attacks. The wounds are still applied, via the normal rules, to the closest model in the enemy squad. The player who controls the defending models still determines who takes the hit if multiple models are equidistant. The wounds are still being allocated based on who is closest/controlling player's choice. The player defending can still attempt, per the LoS rule, to shift that allocation to a further away model. All the Destroyer table does is change the amount of damage the wound does to the model it is allocated to. You're looking at it completely backwards. Since D weapons are shooting/assault attacks, and the LoS rules say you can attempt a LoS when wounds are allocated to a model in shooting or close combat, the D weapon table doesn't need to say "you can LoS" for it to be allowed, it would have to say "these wounds are not considered allocated, LoS cannot be taken" in order to DISALLOW it.

The reason perils is different is 10) perils is not a shooting/close combat attack, and 2) the rule specifically states "the psyker" takes the wound.

The reason Get's hot is different is that it explicitly states that you cannot LoS, which D weapons do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dominuschao wrote:
I agree results of 6 cannot benefit from LO,S. However remember that this does not override the core rules for model removal which can mitigate the damage similar to LO,S.

A roll of 6 can absolutely benefit from LoS. A 6 roll only disallows saving throws. LoS is not a save.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Except that the wound is being allocated.

Only the initial wound is allocated. The other wounds are not.

 Ghaz wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Except that the wound is being allocated.

Only the initial wound is allocated. The other wounds are not.

That in no way precludes LoS. You LoS for the initial allocated wound, when it is allocated, as allowed by the LoS rules. Then, after the LoS is resolved, you roll on the D table to determine how many wound that wound causes the model it was finally allocated to to lose. It's one wound., that does more damage. Hence why it's not worded as "does d3, or d6+6 wounds", but as "suffers a hit that wounds automatically, and causes it to lose d3 wounds instead of one"

It does preclude LOS on anything other than the original wound.

 Ghaz wrote:
It does preclude LOS on anything other than the original wound.

There aren't any additional wounds! You're conflating "wounds", verb, small w, "wound", noun, small w, and "Wounds", noun, big W.

The first refers to an attack successful damaging an opponent.

The second refers to said successful attack

The third refers to the amount of damage, expressed in a number of Wounds, that a model can take before it dies

"The model suffers a hit (singular) which wounds automatically (successfully does damage), and causes it to lose d3 Wounds instead of 1 (the amount of damage it does to the model)"

A successful D hit cause ONE wound. However, the D rules alter that wound so that instead of causing the model to lose 1 Wound, like normal, it causes the model to lose d3 Wounds. Those d3 lost Wounds(HP, toughness points, whatever you want to call them) are still caused by a single successful wound (attack that causes damage)

So where in the rules are the rules that tell us the difference between a 'wound' and a 'Wound'? You're making up a difference that's not in the rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
So where in the rules are the rules that tell us the difference between a 'wound' and a 'Wound'? You're making up a difference that's not in the rules.

The sentence he quoted is using them separately grammatically. Capital W is the proper noun usage.

And again, where is the difference between 'wound' and 'Wound' noted in the rulebook? The sentence he quoted doesn't define how they're different.

Is ghaz and blaktoof the same person?

On a more serious note, you can los destroyer weapons. Any wound that comes from a weapon you can los.

Let's tackle this another way.

What rules are we using to allocate the Destroyer Wound?

 Ghaz wrote:
So where in the rules are the rules that tell us the difference between a 'wound' and a 'Wound'? You're making up a difference that's not in the rules.

I'm making up nothing. First off. the specific use of Wound, with a capital W, is right out of the rulebook, and is consistently used throughout the entire book when referring to specific attribute in model profiles. As for the other two uses, I'm doing nothing more than identifying them grammatically, and explaining the context in which they are consistently used though-out the book. the assumption that it is a single wound doing more damage comes from the fact that the rule refers to the model suffering a singular hit, which causes it to lose plural wounds, rather than referring to plural hits each causing to lose singular wounds.

Regardless, none of that changes the simple fact that the logic of "The rules for D weapons don't say they are allocated as part of a wound pool, so you can't LoS" makes absolutely no sense. The rules earlier in the book already explain the concept of how wounds are allocated both in shooting and close combat (i.e., to the closest model, with the controlling player making the call if two models are equidistant), and that when a wound is allocated to a model, if the model is a character, the controlling player can attempt to deflect it to a different model by passing a LoS check. At this point, the assumption would be that the Destroyer rules would state if they differed from the normal rules, not if they stayed the same. That would be ludicrous to expect, the rulebook would be 10,000 pages long, because with each new rule, they would have to reiterate which of the already established basic rules continued to apply to the new rule. A perfect example is the Gets Hot rule. Because it comes from a shooting attack, the assumption would be that you could LoS. Because this is not the case, however, the game designers explicitly state that you cannot make a LoS attempt to avoid a model taking a wound from a Gets Hot result. Nowhere in the Destroyer rules does it say "this wound is not considered to be allocated to the model, and therefore you cannot attempt to LoS". That is the thing that is being made up without being supported by the rule book

You use standard shooting rules / assault rules to allocate wounds from a destroyer weapon. If you don't, then obviously my character takes no wounds from your destroyer weapon, because it was never allocated to him, right?

I was misremembering the table earlier, you cannot LO,S any result on the D table. Reason is, as stated above, destroyer weapons do not create a wound pool because they do not roll to wound. Again though this does not supersede the normal rules for model removal so ICs remain petty well protected.

And obviously some people choose to play it differently. For example BAO faq allows characters to LO,S "destroyer hits" although personally I think Ds were toned down enough already.

dominuschao wrote:
I was misremembering the table earlier, you cannot LO,S any result on the D table. Reason is, as stated above, destroyer weapons do not create a wound pool because they do not roll to wound. Again though this does not supersede the normal rules for model removal so ICs remain petty well protected.

And obviously some people choose to play it differently. For example BAO faq allows characters to LO,S "destroyer hits" although personally I think Ds were toned down enough already.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that D weapons don't create a Wound pool, just because they don't roll to wound. Again, nowhere in the rules does it say "Wound pools are only created when you roll to wound". In fact the rule on wounds pools read "Total up the number of Wounds you have caused with the weapons that are firing. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds, and create a pool" (for shooting pg. 34), and "Finally, total up the number of Wounds you have caused during that Initiative step. Keep the dice that have scored Wounds and create a pool" (For assault, pg. 51). Nowhere in either of those does it say "total up the number of wounds you caused by rolling to wound" or "the dice that have scored Wounds by rolling to wound". It says "the dice that have scored wounds". In the case of a Strength D weapon, the "dice that have scored wounds" are the dice rolled off of the D table after a successful hit that were not a 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

siege2142 wrote:
You use standard shooting rules / assault rules to allocate wounds from a destroyer weapon. If you don't, then obviously my character takes no wounds from your destroyer weapon, because it was never allocated to him, right?

Also, this. There seems to be some basic misunderstanding about what the word "allocate" means. If the wounds aren't allocated, then nobody would take them. If, at some point, for whatever reason, however you want to define it, somebody said "this model has to take the wound", then the wound was allocated to them. And since this allocation happened during the shooting phase, or during close combat, since those are literally the only time a Strength D weapon could have been used, then the character model is entitled to a Look Out, Sir!, as per the rules in those respective sections

Interestingly enough, A Hive Tyrant part of the Skytyrant Formation can LOS any Wounds it suffers.

RaW Desttoyer weapons are broken. Blaktoof highlights the issue:

blaktoof wrote: For D weapons there is no rolling to wound, and no generation of a wound pool. There are no wounds allocated to models, instead there are hits generated that create roll results on a table against models that are hit.

The highlighted part is the issue. You NEVER hit models you hit units. The D table is triggered by rolling on it once for each MODEL hit. Therefore semantics about suffered wounds etc are irrelevant. You need to create a mechanic to make D Weapons work at all. Whether or not you allow LoS in that mechanic is up to you and how you've created your houserule to make D Weapons work.

Once a model has suffered the D table result though it is impossible to LoS as it does effects that occur after a failed save. In essence the best way to make them work with some semblance of RaW is assume D Weapons autowound and you roll on the table for effect AFTER the wound is allocated to a model (thus after LoS but before saves). But that is just my Houserule. Any rule that people use will be their houserule as the rulebook does not give us enough information to work out exactly how D Weapons are supposed to work.

col_impact wrote:


What rules are we using to allocate the Destroyer Wound?

The right question would be: what rules are we using to generate wounds and allocating them when generating a Destroyer HIT?

It specifically states the destroyer weapon does not roll to wound. But it creates a vacuum. You can hit something but you don't wound it. So how are we to determine who gets to suffer its effects and on which model (in case you have several hits on a unit with several models eligible to receive its effects, like a multi-char unit all in B2B) if there is no step to allocate the wound somehow?

Clearly a loophole.

Allocation needs to happen normally, and LOS should apply.

There is no wound allocated, merely suffered. Be it d3+1 or removed from play.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
There is no wound allocated, merely suffered. Be it d3+1 or removed from play.

So who suffers the wounds? A unit of 10 models gets hit by a D weapon 6 times. What do you do next and resolve that?

Also there is no "d3+1 or removed from play" only a wound that causes the model to lose d3 or d6+6 wounds.