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I love when they throw rules out and don't clarify simple question that would clearly arise.
1: Ctan is a monsterouse creature. Monstrous creatures can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase.
Well they have a stack of powers that are randomly chosen each shooting phase. So would that mean you could manifest 2 different powers to use sine their all different names ?
2: doomsday cannon has a rule for a less effective shooting attack if it moves. A formation in the next codex would give it relentless. Since that states it fires as if having remained stationary... Would that mean it could always fire as if it had stood still?

1. Not sure, I think not as they have "one weapon" and they cannot fire it twice.
2. They don't get Relentless.

1) No - whilst it can fire two weapons, the powers are a single piece of wargear. As you can only fire the same weapon once per turn, the powers cannot be used twice in a single turn.

2) No such formation exists.

In 7th edition, all vehicles have Relentless automatically so you don't have to care about which detachment your Doomsday Ark is in.

I think the intent is that Relentless doesn't have any effect on choosing the profile for the cannon. Otherwise you'd have rules for a weaker weapon profile that is never used. I don't have the codex yet so I can't check the exact wording, though.

Eyjio wrote:
1) No - whilst it can fire two weapons, the powers are a single piece of wargear. As you can only fire the same weapon once per turn, the powers cannot be used twice in a single turn.

I thought that too, but now I'm not so sure any more.
It says: "Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles."
That would indicate that it are six different weapons, each with two profiles.

Whatever this discussion will bring, I am fairly sure that this is one of the few things that really requires a FAQ.

WGMelchior wrote:
In 7th edition, all vehicles have Relentless automatically so you don't have to care about which detachment your Doomsday Ark is in.

I think the intent is that Relentless doesn't have any effect on choosing the profile for the cannon. Otherwise you'd have rules for a weaker weapon profile that is never used. I don't have the codex yet so I can't check the exact wording, though.

Relentless works on Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance.
The Doomsday Cannon (High Power) is Primary Weapon 1.
I think that solves it

I love when they throw rules questions out and don't even bother to read the rules that would clearly answer the questions that arise...
1) The C'tan powers tell you how you use them. Is there permission to use them twice? The ability to fire two different weapons in a shooting phase has nothing to do with activating a specific special rule.

2) All vehicles always have relentless and no formation gives the Doomsday Ark relentless. The rule on the weapon is more specific than relentless (as it talks about vehicle movement) so trumps it in this case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I thought that too, but now I'm not so sure any more.
It says: "Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles."
That would indicate that it are six different weapons, each with two profiles.

Whatever this discussion will bring, I am fairly sure that this is one of the few things that really requires a FAQ.

It really doesn't require an FAQ. Powers of the C'tan is a piece of wargear that generates a weapon when activated. Do you have permission to activate that piece of warhead more than once in the shooting phase?

Kangodo wrote:
I thought that too, but now I'm not so sure any more.
It says: "Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles."
That would indicate that it are six different weapons, each with two profiles.

No, it wouldn't. There isn't any precedent for a weapon having mutiple profiles indicating that it counts as multiple weapons. If it did, Thunderfire Cannons, Pask's Executioner cannon, Sternguard bolters etc would all count as multiple weapons. To wit, they don't.

RAW, it's just a weapon that has multiple profiles.

Then please explain how 'Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles.'

I have 12 profiles with a line that clearly mentions that each weapon has two separate profiles.
Simple math gives me six weapons, which is further supported by the use of multiples.

Kangodo wrote:
Then please explain how 'Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles.'

I have 12 profiles with a line that clearly mentions that each weapon has two separate profiles.
Simple math gives me six weapons, which is further supported by the use of multiples.

You are removing that line out of context pg 117 of the necron codex powers of the C'tan green box. It is informing that each of the rolled powers have two separate weapon profiles and it tells us "When the C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer, the C'tan Shard of the Deceiver or a Transcendent C'tan uses one of these powers, use the Transcendent weapon profile: when a Tesseract Vault uses one of these powers, use the Coalescent weapon profile." It is telling us that after we roll our d6 to determine which power is used the restriction on which profile of that power we have to use. Combi weapons have two profiles each but tells us we can only fire one per shooting phase. Powers of the C'tan tell us "Models armed with Powers of the C'tan can use them as A ranged weapon in the Shooting phase of their own turn." The "them" are the different powers listed can are chosen randomly by the d6. it is said we can use the wargear "Powers of the C'tan" as -A- ranged weapon. Singular. Just because a single weapon is named in the plural form doesn't make it multiple weapons we can shoot.

Another thing is that the "Powers of the C'tan" is the only wargear the C'tan shards have they do not have "Powers of the C'tan shard - Abtimatter meteor", "Powers of the C'tan- Seismic Assault", etc etc. There is no permission is use "Powers of the C'tan" more than once a turn, if there is explicit permission to do so can you give us a rule quote? I would really love to be wrong in this case.




On the subject of the DDark. All vehicles have relentless (pg73 brb), that being said relentless only helps with Heavy,Salvo, or ordnance weapons. None of those are what the DDark are (this caused some confusion on my part with the 5th ed necron book where it was listed as heavy)

Kangodo wrote:
Then please explain how 'Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles.'

I have 12 profiles with a line that clearly mentions that each weapon has two separate profiles.
Simple math gives me six weapons, which is further supported by the use of multiples.

Just read the rules it is all very clear. You don't have 6 weapons. You have 1 piece of wargear that generates a weapon each shooting phase (from a choice of 6). Now show permission to use that piece of wargear a second time.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Then please explain how 'Each of the Powers of the C'tan has two separate weapon profiles.'

I have 12 profiles with a line that clearly mentions that each weapon has two separate profiles.
Simple math gives me six weapons, which is further supported by the use of multiples.

Just read the rules it is all very clear. You don't have 6 weapons. You have 1 piece of wargear that generates a weapon each shooting phase (from a choice of 6). Now show permission to use that piece of wargear a second time.

This is wrong.

There is absolutely nothing in the rules claiming to "generate" anything for a C'Tan. The D6 roll simply chooses which weapon to use for that particular shooting attack.

The rule states that models armed with the Powers of the C'tan can use them as a ranged weapon.

It also goes in to state exactly what Flip said that each of the weapons (plural) has two weapon profiles.

"The rule states that models armed with the Powers of the C'tan can use them as A ranged weapon."

How many ranged weapons can the Powers of the C'tan be used as?

 FlingitNow wrote:
"The rule states that models armed with the Powers of the C'tan can use THEM as a ranged weapon."

How many ranged weapons can the Powers of the C'tan be used as?

"Them", as in used for referring to a particular group of people or things when they have already been mentioned.

And how many ranged weapons can they be used as?

Considering you can use THEM as ranged weapons it means the Powers of the C'tan is a group and not a single item. Since they're Monstrous Creatures they can use two each turn, barring any other shooting.

It does say use them as ranged weapons. It says a ranged weapon. What makes you think an MC with 1 ranged weapon can fire it more than once?

Also how the heck do you even think this works? Say I nominate a target roll a 3 for my weapon, resolve the shooting attack nominate the same target then roll a 3 again...


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In fact scratch that an MC can only nominate a target once and that process triggers the roll so how do you even get to nominate a target again?

You're using each power as a ranged weapon. That doesn't make them all one weapon.

Got a quote for that because my book says otherwise:

"Models armed with Powers of the C'tan can use them as a ranged weapon"

Also how are you choosing multiple targets with the C'tan as when you choose a target you "roll ONE D6 and consult the following table"? Or if you're rolling more than 1 D6 please explain why?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Got a quote for that because my book says otherwise:

"Models armed with Powers of the C'tan can use them as a ranged weapon"

Also how are you choosing multiple targets with the C'tan as when you choose a target you "roll ONE D6 and consult the following table"? Or if you're rolling more than 1 D6 please explain why?

MC's have never been able to choose multiple targetsfor both weapons.

I know that. So either you break that rule to use the Powers of the C'tan twice. Or you break the Powers of the C'tan rule and roll more than D6 when seeing what weapons you fire. How are people doing this is my question.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Got a quote for that because my book says otherwise:

"Models armed with Powers of the C'tan can use them as a ranged weapon"

Also how are you choosing multiple targets with the C'tan as when you choose a target you "roll ONE D6 and consult the following table"? Or if you're rolling more than 1 D6 please explain why?

As already posted, you treat THEM as a ranged weapon. If it Powers of the C'tan was a single item it would be you treat IT as a ranged weapon. 'Them' is plural, as in more than one. You have multiple Powers of the C'tan, not just one.

 Ghaz wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Got a quote for that because my book says otherwise:

"Models armed with Powers of the C'tan can use them as a ranged weapon"

Also how are you choosing multiple targets with the C'tan as when you choose a target you "roll ONE D6 and consult the following table"? Or if you're rolling more than 1 D6 please explain why?

As already posted, you treat THEM as a ranged weapon. If it Powers of the C'tan was a single item it would be you treat IT as a ranged weapon. 'Them' is plural, as in more than one. You have multiple Powers of the C'tan, not just one.

Where does it state that models have more than 1 Powers of the C'tan?

If we walk through the steps
1. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn. Transcendent C'tan! I choose you!
2. Choose a Target. I nominate the Tac squad that is 18" away standing in an open field twiddling their thumbs.
3, Select a Weapon - This is where we break from the normal rules. Per Powers, I roll 1D6 to determine the profile.
4-6. As normal.
7. Select Another Weapon. The C'tan has no other weapons to choose from. Where is your specific permission to select Powers of hte C'Tan a second time?

As I noted above, Powers of the C'tan is not a single item but a grouping of powers each treated as a ranged weapon. Its like Flamer Weapons in the appendix of the main rulebook isn't a single weapon but a grouping of weapons.

 Ghaz wrote:
Considering you can use THEM as ranged weapons it means the Powers of the C'tan is a group and not a single item. Since they're Monstrous Creatures they can use two each turn, barring any other shooting.

And the Tesseract Vault C'Tan can shoot unlimited shots if it doesnt move as vehicles can shoot every weapon if they dont move?

Your point being? It still doesn't change the wording that makes Powers of the C'tan each a separate power.

 Aeon wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Considering you can use THEM as ranged weapons it means the Powers of the C'tan is a group and not a single item. Since they're Monstrous Creatures they can use two each turn, barring any other shooting.

And the Tesseract Vault C'Tan can shoot unlimited shots if it doesnt move as vehicles can shoot every weapon if they dont move?

No, you can only fire a weapon once unless a rule allows it to be fired twice in the same shooting phases ala Ahriman.

That said though, it would mean that the Vault can fire all six powers, plus the Tesla spheres.

The problem is the random choice of powers and what happens if you roll a power you've already rolled. Do you roll again until you get a power you haven't used or does that end your use of Powers of the C'tan for that turn? There are problems with the rules, but I don't think calling all the Powers of the C'tan is the proper way to take care of it in light of the wording used.

it is said we can use the wargear "Powers of the C'tan" as -A- ranged weapon. Singular. Just because a single weapon is named in the plural form doesn't make it multiple weapons we can shoot.

Another thing is that the "Powers of the C'tan" is the only wargear the C'tan shards have they do not have "Powers of the C'tan shard - Antimatter meteor", "Powers of the C'tan- Seismic Assault", etc etc. There is no permission is use "Powers of the C'tan" more than once a turn, if there is explicit permission to do so can you give us a rule quote? I would really love to be wrong in this case.

Oberron wrote:
it is said we can use the wargear "Powers of the C'tan" as -A- ranged weapon. Singular. Just because a single weapon is named in the plural form doesn't make it multiple weapons we can shoot..

Again, you're totally ignoring the word that applies to the powers, 'them'. You can use Antimatter Meteor as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use Cosmic Fire as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use Seismic Assault as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use any of the powers I've listed as "... a ranged weapon..." but I've listed more than one power. By your claims I've only listed one. "A" does not indicate only one power, as its being used as an indefinite article.

 Ghaz wrote:

Oberron wrote:
it is said we can use the wargear "Powers of the C'tan" as -A- ranged weapon. Singular. Just because a single weapon is named in the plural form doesn't make it multiple weapons we can shoot..

Again, you're totally ignoring the word that applies to the powers, 'them'. You can use Antimatter Meteor as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use Cosmic Fire as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use Seismic Assault as "... a ranged weapon..." You can use any of the powers I've listed as "... a ranged weapon..." but I've listed more than one power. By your claims I've only listed one. "A" does not indicate only one power, as its being used as an indefinite article.

How many times can a Transcendent C'Tan shoot say Cosmic Fire a turn?