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Background:
I have been in the paint business for the last 12 years (a trained chemist) and over that time I got to find out all the secrets of the trade.
I am also p*s*d off having to pay 3-6 dollars for 12ml of paint for painting my minis.

Idea:
Since the know-how is there, I have been testing some recipes and crunching some numbers and I am at the pleasant position to believe that I can make and sell high quality wargame paints for one fifty (yes 1.50) dollars a pot.

Suggestion:
There has been a lot of work done with the line of paints.
I am really satisfied with the quality and the brightness of the paints and also the color range.

The next step was to make the line available for testing by the end user, you guys!!!
30 sets of 10 colors have been shipped out to people that were interested in participating.

the first reviews are coming in already:
http://www.klatu.org/2015/04/12/pois...esting-review/

Features of the paint:
non-toxic
highest quality pigments
hybrid acrylic paint (water-based)
can be thinned with tap water (soft)
perfect color consistency
colors do not separate (no shaking required)
child-proof screw top
dropper bottles minimise contamination and drying out
mixable with other brands (GW, Scale75 and Vallejo confirmed, info on others to follow soon)



We will be reviewing the feedback received from the end-users and making any necessary twitches to the formulation of the paints.

Once that is finished we will be able to offer you the actual color sets at the promised prices!!!!

Your link doesn't work. Good luck with your business. Why did you decide to name your paints Poison?

Here's the link: http://www.klatu.org/2015/04/12/poison-warpaints-beta-testing-review/

I'd second ol' Nite Owl there - good to know that your line of poison paints is non-toxic. I know it's only a brand name, and this hobby has a kind of tradition of posturing monikers, but I'm wondering if it's the wisest one...?

What do mean by 'hybrid acrylic'?

Given your experience in the field, any chance you're using some of the 'painterly' pigments and colours? The ultramarines, umbers, quinacridones, perylenes etc. Or something else?

To be honest I'm not wowed by the coverage in that review, but for the price point and the introduction of another choice of paints, I can't complain too much. Wouldn't mind trying them out on general release, tho I wonder how feasible it'd be to make regular orders from this side of the pond.

I am down with independent producers, 100%. I got out of the hobby due to the horrible, corporate attitudes which were floating around a while ago. I'm all good for people striking out on their own, but what sets Poison apart from Vallejo / P3 / Coat d'Arms (my paint of choice) etc? Is it literally price?

Each paint being a quid a bottle is certainly appealing, but is it going to be quality comparable to the £2 bottles, or is it going to be WORTH a quid a bottle?

Interested to know. Also, will the range involve less lurid colours at some point?

Hollismason wrote:
Your link doesn't work. Good luck with your business. Why did you decide to name your paints Poison?

Thank you for your wishes.

Poison is a brand name basically and it is like RAD, or BAD (bad words with really good meaning).
I hope I am passing the message of what I want to say


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:
I'd second ol' Nite Owl there - good to know that your line of poison paints is non-toxic. I know it's only a brand name, and this hobby has a kind of tradition of posturing monikers, but I'm wondering if it's the wisest one...?

What do mean by 'hybrid acrylic'?

Given your experience in the field, any chance you're using some of the 'painterly' pigments and colours? The ultramarines, umbers, quinacridones, perylenes etc. Or something else?

To be honest I'm not wowed by the coverage in that review, but for the price point and the introduction of another choice of paints, I can't complain too much. Wouldn't mind trying them out on general release, tho I wonder how feasible it'd be to make regular orders from this side of the pond.

Hybrid acrylic due to the modified acrylic resin used that helps out into the paint NOT separating EVER. no shaking is required.

The coverage depends on colors. Once all the colors are finished you will see that some colors cover completely (extra opaque) others cover well (opaque) and others are semi transparent.

There will be something for everyone


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tek wrote:
I am down with independent producers, 100%. I got out of the hobby due to the horrible, corporate attitudes which were floating around a while ago. I'm all good for people striking out on their own, but what sets Poison apart from Vallejo / P3 / Coat d'Arms (my paint of choice) etc? Is it literally price?

Each paint being a quid a bottle is certainly appealing, but is it going to be quality comparable to the £2 bottles, or is it going to be WORTH a quid a bottle?

Interested to know. Also, will the range involve less lurid colours at some point?

Poison has some distinctive features that sets it apart from others:
virtually odorless, lightfast, color does not separate, intermixable with other brands and water can be used as thinner. Also the PRICE.
We will be also producing favourite colors (i.e snakebite leather) missed by the painters.

the paints are quality-wise the same or even superior to the established brands. They are just not charged excessively.

I will be finishing the revised colorchart soon and you will be able to see the first 74+ colors to be launched soon.

 poison_ wrote:


Poison has some distinctive features that sets it apart from others:
virtually odorless, lightfast, color does not separate, intermixable with other brands and water can be used as thinner.

Honestly, I don't know why you'd think these things are distinctive to your paints when compared with others on the market.

I mainly use Vallejo and Reaper paints, but have a decent number from each of Games Workshop, Coat D'arms, Army Painter and P3 as well as a few from the Scale 75 range. So that's my experience base when I say the folowing:

Odourless - apart from a few washes as they get older, I have never noticed any of my paints to smell of anything unless I practically stick my nose inside the pot/bottle. Not a significant USP

Lightfast - probably don't have enough experience of my painted models being exposed to sunlight for extended periods of time to judge this, but I can say it's not the first thing that I look for in a paint,

Non-separation of colour - Not having to shake a bottle adds an element of convenience to proceedings, but it's not the biggest issue in the world and a lot of my paints don't seem to separate unless they're left unused for 6+ months.

Mixable with other brands - sorry, but what? I have never had problems mixing paints from the array of brands I listed above so I don't really understand why this is worth mentioning. it would be more remarkable if your paints didn't mix with others. Definitely not a USP.

Water can be used as thinner - again, why is this worth mentioning as a point of difference with other paint ranges? I thin with water almost exclusively and have never found it difficult to do so accross the broad range of paints I possess. Not a USP.

Now I do apologise if any of that sounds unduly harsh, but citing those things as being distinctive to your paints seems somewhat disingenuous to me as it is obliquely stating that competitors' brands do not offer these qualities. On two of those you could be right, but on the other 3 it sounds like you're scrabbling to find things that make you stand out in a pretty crowded market. There's nothing wrong with mentioning that the paints can be mixed with other brands, but you can't claim that it sets them apart from equivalent products as it patently does not.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
Odourless - Not a significant USP
Lightfast - not the first thing that I look for in a paint.
Non-separation of colour - not the biggest issue in the world.
Mixable with other brands - Definitely not a USP.
Water can be used as thinner - Not a USP.

A little harsh I think, but generally good points all round.
I've not personally bought paint in a long time, but I have to say my GW washes and foundation paints STINK. Really bad. Remember that thread ages ago about Devlan Mud having poo in it? I always think of that when I put my brushes in my mouth. Lighfast isn't something I could imagine caring about, I don't display my minis but hey it someone does, that's a Brucey Bonus for them. I'll say this - separation is a bit of a hassle actually. If you combine the fact that GW paints dry out by themselves, and then add in the fact that they separate, it's a serious upkeep pipetting water in and shaking them all up every now and then. I'd rather not tbh. Mixable - yeah, they're all mixable. They're all water-based too, I exclusively use water as a mixer. So whilst these points may not be unique, they're good things. If Poison didn't tick these boxes they'd be dead in the water so it's not like these aren't needed features.

poison_ wrote:...Also the PRICE.
We will be also producing favourite colors (i.e snakebite leather) missed by the painters.
the paints are quality-wise the same or even superior to the established brands. They are just not charged excessively.
I will be finishing the revised colorchart soon and you will be able to see the first 74+ colors to be launched soon.

Okay I'm down with this now. Reproducing older colours is one of the major reasons I buy Coat d'Arms. Do I need Amethyst Purple? Do I hell! But I still want it. Okay, quality we'll have to wait and see but if you're claiming to be making a Vallejo-quality paint for a quid a bottle, I'd pick some up just to try them. And 74 first wave colours sounds excellent. I was worried you were only releasing those 10 garish colours. Despite what others may have said, I would drop a few quid trying out a new product from an independent producer mainly because I like to help out small business. But if your paints actually turned out to be of a reasonable quality, I could see more people picking them up, based on two factors:

These are your old favourite GW colours. They're a quid a shot.

That alone is reason enough I think, provided that the quality is there.

 Tek wrote:

 sockwithaticket wrote:
Odourless - Not a significant USP
Lightfast - not the first thing that I look for in a paint.
Non-separation of colour - not the biggest issue in the world.
Mixable with other brands - Definitely not a USP.
Water can be used as thinner - Not a USP.

A little harsh I think, but generally good points all round.

If you combine the fact that GW paints dry out by themselves, and then add in the fact that they separate, it's a serious upkeep pipetting water in and shaking them all up every now and then. I'd rather not tbh. Mixable - yeah, they're all mixable. They're all water-based too, I exclusively use water as a mixer.

So whilst these points may not be unique, they're good things. If Poison didn't tick these boxes they'd be dead in the water so it's not like these aren't needed features.

Clearly you're coming at it from a GW-centric perspective and I take the point that their paints dry out and that brings a hassle of mixing in water to keep them alive. That's not the case for an awful lot of the rest of the market, though, and that's why I prefaced my comments with a list of the various paint ranges I use; my comments come from a familiarity with most of the brands these paints would be competing against.

I think that drying out is a bit beside the point, though. I brought up shaking as that's what becomes necessary when paint separates in the bottle and they purport that this won't be necessary with their paints. While that's an interesting feature I don't believe it's a huge deal as not all the paints in other ranges separate and those that do mix back together after a few seconds vigorous shaking unless they've been left to stand for a very long time. At least that's been my experience of paint separation in Vallejo, Reaper et al, which is why I don't consider it a hassle.

For the last point, I think you've slightly missed what I was saying. It's perfectly fine to mention that their paints can be mixed with other brands and that water can be used to thin them; they are features and, as you say, those are things that people want to know. However, It is not acceptable to suggest that those features are what makes them distinct from the rest of the market and put them forward as a USP (which is what was done) because the direct implication is that their competitors' products do not offer these same features. It's at best disingenuous and at worst a bold-faced lie.

I would love to try these out!!!

Let me throw you some advice.

One of the reasons why paints cost around the $3-6 dollar range is because once you go high scale there is A LOT of expensive equipment involved... trust me I know I have sold it.

We are talking about 100's of thousands of dollars for the machines.. not to mentioned operators.. and engineers on staff for when something breaks down.

I see the bottles you have is the dripper bottle. If that dripper cap doesn't come off you need a machine that has a syringe to fill it.. if you are doing it manually.. its pretty painstaking but no big deal... Once you go automatic.... you will see why the price is so high!

Another piece of advice I can give you is if you buy equipment... don't go to big to fast or you will spend a lot of money fast, and if your paint business doesn't work out your screwed... used equipment is worth pennies on the dollar and you will blow most of your investment. Find a place that rents equipment to test the waters once you get to that level.

Good luck hopefully everything works out for you!

Another point of interest with these being a new paint would be consistency between production batches. This of course will only be seen down the road. I have had experiences before when I painted a given model with a particular paint. Years later on a similar model with the same color but from a different batch the color came out noticeably different when placed next o the original model. Only time will tell with this, but at this price point I would certainly give them a shot, especially when doing demos and things of that nature to keep costs down.

If you can reproduce some of the now out-of-production paints from other sources than GW, that would be a pretty good selling point as well. Specifically, some of The Armory paints. I'd give several major organs to have a few of those available again (especially "Melon").

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:
I would love to try these out!!!

Let me throw you some advice.

One of the reasons why paints cost around the $3-6 dollar range is because once you go high scale there is A LOT of expensive equipment involved... trust me I know I have sold it.

We are talking about 100's of thousands of dollars for the machines.. not to mentioned operators.. and engineers on staff for when something breaks down.

I see the bottles you have is the dripper bottle. If that dripper cap doesn't come off you need a machine that has a syringe to fill it.. if you are doing it manually.. its pretty painstaking but no big deal... Once you go automatic.... you will see why the price is so high!

Another piece of advice I can give you is if you buy equipment... don't go to big to fast or you will spend a lot of money fast, and if your paint business doesn't work out your screwed... used equipment is worth pennies on the dollar and you will blow most of your investment. Find a place that rents equipment to test the waters once you get to that level.

Good luck hopefully everything works out for you!

thank you for your good advice and good wishes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luchog wrote:
If you can reproduce some of the now out-of-production paints from other sources than GW, that would be a pretty good selling point as well. Specifically, some of The Armory paints. I'd give several major organs to have a few of those available again (especially "Melon").

i am not familiar with all the oop paints of all brands out there.
if you can provide a paint sample (actual paint on a piece of paper) i will try my best.

let me know


Automatically Appended Next Post:

commissarbob wrote:
Another point of interest with these being a new paint would be consistency between production batches. This of course will only be seen down the road. I have had experiences before when I painted a given model with a particular paint. Years later on a similar model with the same color but from a different batch the color came out noticeably different when placed next o the original model. Only time will tell with this, but at this price point I would certainly give them a shot, especially when doing demos and things of that nature to keep costs down.

I am almost certain that the uniqueness of the way we produce the paints is allowing a 100% color consistency.
This is already obvious by the tests we have performed for the batches already produced.
As you say, time will prove it



Automatically Appended Next Post:
here is the colourchart for the launching:

Are the swatches along the bottom of the chart washes or metallics?

 insaniak wrote:
Are the swatches along the bottom of the chart washes or metallics?

those are an innovation. it will be a surprise. let me tell you they are not metallics (flat paints they are) and are not inks either.

How would I go about offering my meager services to test/use them as an every day joe-blow average but trying to get better painter kind of guy?

I find its great to see what pros can do with painting...but honestly....what is the skill level of the majority of people who are being targeted? Guys like me. So if you show what guys like me cam do with stuff....seems better to me :-)

From your country of origin logo it looks like you could be in Cyprus Poison.

If you need someone on Island to test your paints out give me a shout.

 poison_ wrote:

 luchog wrote:
If you can reproduce some of the now out-of-production paints from other sources than GW, that would be a pretty good selling point as well. Specifically, some of The Armory paints. I'd give several major organs to have a few of those available again (especially "Melon").

i am not familiar with all the oop paints of all brands out there.
if you can provide a paint sample (actual paint on a piece of paper) i will try my best.

let me know

I have about a half-bottle of the Melon left, so I can definitely send you a sample of that one. PM me a mailing address and I'll send you a sample card. Unfortunately, I no longer have any of the other colours; but the ones I really want have a similar effect.

Exciting! Keep us posted.

TheMeanDM wrote:How would I go about offering my meager services to test/use them as an every day joe-blow average but trying to get better painter kind of guy?

I find its great to see what pros can do with painting...but honestly....what is the skill level of the majority of people who are being targeted? Guys like me. So if you show what guys like me cam do with stuff....seems better to me :-)

The 'beta testing' phase has finished and all the available sets have been sent. I am waiting for the feedback from those guys now. Once the feedback is dealt with and all the necessary changes are made, we will be launching the paint range that will be available to all of you. I am sorry for not letting you guys know earlier about the testing. You will need to jump on the train of testing the final product rather than the prototype. Thank you for the interest.

Garrlor wrote:From your country of origin logo it looks like you could be in Cyprus Poison.

If you need someone on Island to test your paints out give me a shout.

PM sent

luchog wrote:

 poison_ wrote:

 luchog wrote:
If you can reproduce some of the now out-of-production paints from other sources than GW, that would be a pretty good selling point as well. Specifically, some of The Armory paints. I'd give several major organs to have a few of those available again (especially "Melon").

i am not familiar with all the oop paints of all brands out there.
if you can provide a paint sample (actual paint on a piece of paper) i will try my best.

let me know

I have about a half-bottle of the Melon left, so I can definitely send you a sample of that one. PM me a mailing address and I'll send you a sample card. Unfortunately, I no longer have any of the other colours; but the ones I really want have a similar effect.

PM sent

You should really consider upping the price a bit, pricing has a *huge* impact on perceived quality and value. Also keep in mind your profits, as well as the cost of distribution. If you intend on selling it all directly, then no big deal, but if you want to reach a bigger audience and sell more than a few hundred bottles a year you will need distribution. Consider then that you will have to sell to a distributor for .375 cents per bottle if your desired retail pricepoint is 1.50 (usually the cost doubles at each step, so you would sell at .375, the distributor would sell at .75, the retailer at 1.50)

chaos0xomega wrote:
You should really consider upping the price a bit, pricing has a *huge* impact on perceived quality and value. Also keep in mind your profits, as well as the cost of distribution. If you intend on selling it all directly, then no big deal, but if you want to reach a bigger audience and sell more than a few hundred bottles a year you will need distribution. Consider then that you will have to sell to a distributor for .375 cents per bottle if your desired retail pricepoint is 1.50 (usually the cost doubles at each step, so you would sell at .375, the distributor would sell at .75, the retailer at 1.50)

the whole point for this line of paints (and all of our future products) is to bring the prices down. quality is as high or even better than others.

hopefully the gamers will appreciate this and support us, leading to need no others to distribute for us.

Hi Poison

I am not a marketing professional but have run a succesful business for 7+ years, being in charge of PR and branding.

From readin the thread I think you are approaching it in a very technical way. Most consumers are totally not technical. It is good you know your craft/paint manufacturing inside out, but this is not what helps it sell to customers. Ofcourse neat things like "smooth coverage" or "wear and tear proof" are things that will appeal to miniature gamers. But most technical aspects will just sound like they need to be a given, not an extra quality over other paints available.

If it is mainly low price you want to market, then I also suggest adding something else that makes you Unique. A low price generally is not associated with quality, so most people will instantly assume it is not good. Where as expensive products are generally regarded as being good. This is how the human brain works.. up to a certain treshold.

My advice would be to do something to make You unique. Who is behind Poison? What is your communication style? Funny, serious, open, colorful, cheeky? I could see something work where your brand messaging would be about how you are the Personal, Handcrafted Paints for Hobbyists. This clearly sets you apart from the large Corporate manufacturers who are not personal and approchable.

You can show your craft and make that a part of what appeals to buyers. Show your workshop, show its hand made, unique. Show YOU, who you are, this will make consumers so much more "into" you and is a big reason they will love and want to help make your brand a success. This is succcesfully done by people who sell handcrafted jewelry, one-of-a-kind Beard Grooming kits and whatnot. Clearly identify what your brand is about, how you did it, and why they will love it. It could look like this (just an example).

POISON - HANDMADE QUALITY HOBBY PAINTS

Poison sells handmade quality acrylic hobby paints for miniature wargamers and other specializations.
The paints are affordable, high quality, durable and provide a smooth lasting coverage. They come in no-nonsense labeled pots.

Poison paints are manufactured with love by Yourname in Place, Country, and ship worldwide to you.
YourName has 20 years of experience in the paint industry and a big passion for miniature wargaming.

Why use our paints?

Unique high quality paints

Great colors, coverage and durability

No-nonsense product & Service

Affordable prices thanks to the "no middle man" policy

Hope this sparks some ideas for you !!

 Chris1426 wrote:
Hi Poison

I am not a marketing professional but have run a succesful business for 7+ years, being in charge of PR and branding.

From readin the thread I think you are approaching it in a very technical way. Most consumers are totally not technical. It is good you know your craft/paint manufacturing inside out, but this is not what helps it sell to customers. Ofcourse neat things like "smooth coverage" or "wear and tear proof" are things that will appeal to miniature gamers. But most technical aspects will just sound like they need to be a given, not an extra quality over other paints available.

If it is mainly low price you want to market, then I also suggest adding something else that makes you Unique. A low price generally is not associated with quality, so most people will instantly assume it is not good. Where as expensive products are generally regarded as being good. This is how the human brain works.. up to a certain treshold.

My advice would be to do something to make You unique. Who is behind Poison? What is your communication style? Funny, serious, open, colorful, cheeky? I could see something work where your brand messaging would be about how you are the Personal, Handcrafted Paints for Hobbyists. This clearly sets you apart from the large Corporate manufacturers who are not personal and approchable.

You can show your craft and make that a part of what appeals to buyers. Show your workshop, show its hand made, unique. Show YOU, who you are, this will make consumers so much more "into" you and is a big reason they will love and want to help make your brand a success. This is succcesfully done by people who sell handcrafted jewelry, one-of-a-kind Beard Grooming kits and whatnot. Clearly identify what your brand is about, how you did it, and why they will love it. It could look like this (just an example).

POISON - HANDMADE QUALITY HOBBY PAINTS

Poison sells handmade quality acrylic hobby paints for miniature wargamers and other specializations.
The paints are affordable, high quality, durable and provide a smooth lasting coverage. They come in no-nonsense labeled pots.

Poison paints are manufactured with love by XXX in XXX, UK, and ship worldwide to you.
XXX has 20 years of experience in the paint industry and a big passion for miniature wargaming.

Why use our paints?

Unique high quality paints

Great colors, coverage and durability

No-nonsense product & Service

Affordable prices thanks to the "no middle man" policy

Hope this sparks some ideas for you !!

Well said, I worked at Ace Hardware through my years of high school and college, and I can be the first one to tell you that the cheaper the paint is, the lower the quality. That is also stuck in the consumers mind as they shop for paint and other items.

Cheap price can be a competitive approach but is usually found in ICT/electronics consumer market where the price is low because of Mass Produced stuff.

In your case you would have to simply and quickly explain why you can be cheap AND give quality. For example by selling directly to consumers with no Middleman/Stores/Resellers etc.
But again I think a better way to market is to focus on what makes you Unique, a cool founding story, a nice personal story, a nice style of communicating that reverberates with your customers etc... The low price it what will give people the final push AFTER you got them interested.

How soon until it becomes available?

I'll buy a complete set, screw it. I love buying things for models and I'll try anything once!

I'd 100% buy a few to try once the wider color range comes out.

Intriguing for sure. Whether or not I try them will depend on how easy they are to get.

Saying a paint is $1 a bottle, or 1 GBP isn't saying the full story. For me, in Canada the british pound exchange is 1.83, so your cheap paints are now basically $2 a bottle.

Also, unless you have a massive launch planned with lots of hobby shops, I will have to assume a shipping cost associated with these paints.

I think it would be safe to say, unless I buy a tonne of these paints, they will work out to about $3 a bottle for me.

Thats only $1 less than Vallejo here and isn't anywhere near as convenient. I can go and see all the vallejo colours in 2-3 stores, whereas yours are all being bought site-unseen from a country I know nothing about (based on the flag on your profile).

I'm not saying your product isn't great, but being primarily based on price...I'm not keen on it yet as the price isn't going to be as advertised.

Unless of course you can actually sell it for $1 USD or CDN per bottle and provide free shipping.

Chris1426 wrote:Cheap price can be a competitive approach but is usually found in ICT/electronics consumer market where the price is low because of Mass Produced stuff.

In your case you would have to simply and quickly explain why you can be cheap AND give quality. For example by selling directly to consumers with no Middleman/Stores/Resellers etc.
But again I think a better way to market is to focus on what makes you Unique, a cool founding story, a nice personal story, a nice style of communicating that reverberates with your customers etc... The low price it what will give people the final push AFTER you got them interested.

Valuable advice there. Will need to have some marketing too. Thank you

Zuul wrote:How soon until it becomes available?

My guess (if everything goes to plan) is another 2-3 months. Just in time for summer time.

hutber wrote:I'll buy a complete set, screw it. I love buying things for models and I'll try anything once!

Thank you for the support!

Owain wrote:I'd 100% buy a few to try once the wider color range comes out.

Thank you for the support too!

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Intriguing for sure. Whether or not I try them will depend on how easy they are to get.

Saying a paint is $1 a bottle, or 1 GBP isn't saying the full story. For me, in Canada the british pound exchange is 1.83, so your cheap paints are now basically $2 a bottle.

Also, unless you have a massive launch planned with lots of hobby shops, I will have to assume a shipping cost associated with these paints.

I think it would be safe to say, unless I buy a tonne of these paints, they will work out to about $3 a bottle for me.

Thats only $1 less than Vallejo here and isn't anywhere near as convenient. I can go and see all the vallejo colours in 2-3 stores, whereas yours are all being bought site-unseen from a country I know nothing about (based on the flag on your profile).

I'm not saying your product isn't great, but being primarily based on price...I'm not keen on it yet as the price isn't going to be as advertised.

Unless of course you can actually sell it for $1 USD or CDN per bottle and provide free shipping.

I am hoping that I will be able to offer FREE worldwide shipping when the purchase reaches a specific amount (most probably a set of 8 paints which is not a lot). This means you will buy 8 bottles of paint for less than 10 GBP which is less than 18 canadian dollars. That is less than 1.80 canadian dollars per pot delivered to your door!!!