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I don't understand as the only time I have encountered StD before was on a single-model basis. What happens when you shoot it at a unit? Is it:

-A unit of space marines gets shot at by a Wraithknight. The WK fires 2 shots, hits twice, rolls a 3 and a 6.

Space marine 1 takes 2 wounds and does. Space marine 2 takes 11 wounds and is erased from existence


OR


The space marine squad takes 13 wounds and is effortlessly erased from existence.

The first answer is correct.

D effects are applied after saving throws. By which time wounds have already been allocated. Sooooooo no overkilling of entire squads.

That's what doomsday arcs are for, much better weapon.

So...okay.


Does that mean that WG are actually worse against infantry? They were Strength 10 AP2 before, right? So...they'd already erase any vehicle they got to shoot and they'd kill pretty much all infantry on a 2+ which is now a 3+...

I'm not getting why these things are buffed.

Infantry, they are slightly worse. Vehicles, a lot better.

They still kill almost all infantry on a 2+, the -1 on the chart is only for the scythes.

so for example, youre D Str blast goes over a squad and covers 5 dudes.

you then need to determin who all gets the "D"

pick a guy and roll a D6 - a 1 he lives, a 2-5 he gets an invul save, a 6 and he is removed off the table.

if you get a 2-5, he fails his invuln save then you move on to the next guy and roll the D6 all over again.

repeat until the wounds are used up, in this case it was 5 wounds total for the 5 guys under the plate.

its easier to deal with if its a single shot STR D

fire at a unit, closest one is going to get vaporized, roll to hit, then roll D6, result of 1 is a fail, 2-5 is 3+D3 wounds and invuln save allowed, 6= remove off the table

if you roll a 2-5 and the unit you hit happens to be a 4 wound chapter master, roll a D3 (for example you roll get a 2) 3+2 wounds = 5 total Invuln saves hes now gotta make.

2-5 on table is lose D3 wounds instead of 1 so
D3 roll 1-2 = 1wound
D3 roll 3-4 = 2wounds
D3 roll 5-6 = 3wounds.

So in your example rolling a 2 on the D3 would only make the Chapter master take total of 2 wounds if failed save.

Bullveye wrote:
2-5 on table is lose D3 wounds instead of 1 so
D3 roll 1-2 = 1wound
D3 roll 3-4 = 2wounds
D3 roll 5-6 = 3wounds.

So in your example rolling a 2 on the D3 would only make the Chapter master take total of 2 wounds if failed save.

you sure? I thought it was 2-5 roll is 3 wounds + D3 - and rolling 6 was 6 wounds +D3 and no saves of anykind

Yup got it in front of me.
Rolling 2-5 is D3 wounds instead of 1
Rolling 6 D6+6 wounds with no saves of any kind allowed and rolling 1 is just lucky for the target or unlucky for person rolling.
Digi dex so no idea page number as use glossary page as faster.

You can also take cover saves versus the 2-5 result.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
if you roll a 2-5 and the unit you hit happens to be a 4 wound chapter master, roll a D3 (for example you roll get a 2) 3+2 wounds = 5 total Invuln saves hes now gotta make.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you but this reads to me as incorrect.

The chapter master would need to take 2 invulnerable saves. Failure of either will result in a 1d3 wounds rather than 1 as usual.

What about flamer templates? They kill only covered models? Or everyone in flamer range (~8")?

If they kill only covered models, following a rule of template placement - it must cover as many models as possible but when there are multiple templates, must they cover the same area? Or can they cover different models as long as it's the maximum ammount? What about a situation when they're fired out of a transport? For example, an opentopped transport. Must they all be shot from one point or can they get shot from different points on the hull to cover less models but kill more?

D weapons follow the same rules for casualty removal as any other weapon, so closest models 1st, only killing out to the maz range of the weapon/template, etc.

It's only the wounding step that is different (you roll on the D table instead of comparing S to T)

 Massaen wrote:

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
if you roll a 2-5 and the unit you hit happens to be a 4 wound chapter master, roll a D3 (for example you roll get a 2) 3+2 wounds = 5 total Invuln saves hes now gotta make.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you but this reads to me as incorrect.

The chapter master would need to take 2 invulnerable saves. Failure of either will result in a 1d3 wounds rather than 1 as usual.

D-Weapons are a little weird in how they interact with non-vehicles vs Vehicles

Against Vehicles they do 1 hit. Normally, a hit causes either an non-damaging hit (STR + Roll < AV), a glancing Hit (STR + Roll = AV) or a penetrating hit (STR + Roll > AV). Saves for vehicles are actually taken after you determine damage done by the attack [BRB 77] (Essentially, after it 'takes a wound'). "If the save is passed, the hit is discarded, no Hull Points are lost and no roll is made on the vehicle damage table." [BRB 77]. So the vehicle only has to make 1 save to avoid ALL of the HP lost from a destroyer attack. (Because each destroyer "hit" is still only one "hit"

Shooting on Non-vehicle models is different. You allocate wounds first, and then make saves for each wound. Destroyer weapons say they allocate wounds on a per-model basis rather than in a pool, so it's a little different. Once you know how many wounds a model has potentially taken (Rolling the results on the D-chart) the model now starts making saves. "If it fails reduce the wounds by 1" [BRB 35] Even though the chapter master only took 2 hits, he still was allocated 5 wounds. He gets to attempt to save each wound, but if he fails he loses 1 wound, he dies at 0.

(40K is different from WHFB in this regard.)

But destroyer says (on the 2-5 result Non vehicle)

"The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 wounds instead of 1."

The way this reads to me is that the chapter master is hit, wounded automatically and at this point makes his save. If he fails, he takes D3 wounds instead of 1.

That's the way i read it as well, Massaen

- Roll to hit (or determine hit from blast marker/template)
- Roll on the D table to determine number of "successful" hits
- allocate 1st "success" to closest model
- model takes any available save (if a 2-5 was rolled)
- if save is failed suffers d3 Wounds (if a 2-5 was rolled)
- repeat with next "success" on next closest model until there are no more "successes"

Lendys - incorrect, you take one save, as it is one Wound (the bit you make saves against) that causes D3 wounds (if it gets to the "unsaved wounds" stage)

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
if you roll a 2-5 and the unit you hit happens to be a 4 wound chapter master, roll a D3 (for example you roll get a 2) 3+2 wounds = 5 total Invuln saves hes now gotta make.

Lendys wrote:
Once you know how many wounds a model has potentially taken (Rolling the results on the D-chart) the model now starts making saves. "If it fails reduce the wounds by 1" [BRB 35] Even though the chapter master only took 2 hits, he still was allocated 5 wounds. He gets to attempt to save each wound, but if he fails he loses 1 wound, he dies at 0.

This is incorrect.

You start by allocating D-weapon Hits and roll the result. You then roll for your invun / cover if allowed, and then roll for how many Wounds are lost.

D weapons against 3 Carnifexes in CC, but methodology is the same:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Hits can never be allocated, only Wounds can. So the method is this:

- Roll To Hit
D weapon causes 3 Hits.
- Roll To Wound
2 Hits roll 2-5: Seriously wounded. Automatic Wound with a D3 "Cause".
one Hit rolls 6: Deathblow. Automatic Wound with a D6+6 "Cause".

You have a Wound Pool: 2 "and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1." and 1 "and causes it to lose D6+6 Wounds instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit.".

So, you now assign 1 "and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1." Auto-Wound to the closest (or enemys choice) Carnifex. He gets(maybe) a Save (Invun?). If he fails, you roll a D3, that Carnifex looses that many wounds.
Then, you assign 1 "and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1." Auto-Wound to the same Carnifex, or the next one if the first has died. Save again, if he fails, you roll a D3, that Carnifex looses that many wounds.

You may then assign the last Auto-wound, that ignores saves and therefore simply removes D6+6 Wounds.

Notice that you may
A) Assign the D6+6 Auto-wound first, before the other 2
B) You cannot roll the D3 until after it has been assigned and the enemy has rolled a save. So you can't "find out before" what the result is.
C) Likely not kill all 3 Carnifexes. If they have Cover/Invun saves, Roll 1 on the D3, you may have to also use the D6+6 on the Carnifex that has 1 Wound left... ("once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the Wound pool is empty.")

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
if you roll a 2-5 and the unit you hit happens to be a 4 wound chapter master, roll a D3 (for example you roll get a 2) 3+2 wounds = 5 total Invuln saves hes now gotta make.

Lendys wrote:
Once you know how many wounds a model has potentially taken (Rolling the results on the D-chart) the model now starts making saves. "If it fails reduce the wounds by 1" [BRB 35] Even though the chapter master only took 2 hits, he still was allocated 5 wounds. He gets to attempt to save each wound, but if he fails he loses 1 wound, he dies at 0.

This is incorrect.

You start by allocating D-weapon Hits and roll the result. You then roll for your invun / cover if allowed, and then roll for how many Wounds are lost.

I have to disagree with you because of the order of operations for resolving shooting attacks and what the Destroyer Weapons rule says:

BRB 163: To resolve a Destroyer wepaon's attack, roll To Hit as you would for a standard attack. if the attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To wound or for armor penetration. . . Cover and invulnerable saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a Devastating Hit or Deathblow result is rolled.

So what's "as normal"? Go back to the shooting section.

BRB pg 30:
1. Nominate a unit to shoot (unaffected by special rule)
2. Choose a target (unaffected by special rule)
3. Select a weapon (unaffected by special rule)
4. Roll to hit. (mentioned by special rule, says to resolve as you would for a standard attack)
5. Roll to wound. (Specifically overridden by special rule)
6. Allocate Wounds and remove casualties. (Modified by special rule but you still allocate the wounds one at a time, Destroyer Weapon tells us how many wounds are being allocated though, on a 2-5 it's d3. But this was already accomplished at step 5. We're now at step 6.) A model with a wound allocated to it can take a saving throw to avoid being wounded.
7. Selection another weapon

Because wounds are ALWAYS allocated 1 at a time, it means saves are taken, 1 at a time. You get a save for each wound...not for each hit. (Vehicles are different, but it specifically says you disregard "hits" but that isn't the discussion here.) BRB pg 35 reemphasizes that "take saves and remove casualties" comes after allocating wounds. The Destroyer Weapon rule modified. Step 5 "Roll to wound" It does not modify Step 6. It specifically says "can take a saving throw as normal" The Normal way to do it is attempt to save it per wound. Not per hit.

The destroyer rule then further says "multiple wounds/hull points inflicted by a destroyer hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost)" So you have to allocate the wounds in groupings according to the hits. Thus the groupings of wounds I laid out. But saves are taken normally. Saves are against wounds...NOT against hits. If you are hit with 3 wounds, you have to take 3 saves, you don't get 1 save and if it fails avoid 3 wounds. That isn't how wounds are 'normally' saved.

Vehicles are different because it specifically says (BRB pg 77) that a "hit" is discarded and no HP are lost. Saves are taken against "hits" for vehicles, but they are taken against "Wounds" for non-vehicles.

TLR Argument
Destroyer weapons replace "To Wound" with a funky special way of making "wounds." They can be thought of as "mini-wound pools" that get allocated to a model, any excess are lost, but saves are taken normally. Saves are against wounds for non-vehicles, not against hits, so you must save each wound successively, if the model dies then that 'mini wound pool' goes away and the next wound grouping is applied to the next model.

How does LoS interact with all of this?

Same as with any other weapon. Can't allocate wounds to models not in LoS, with the exception of blasts/large blasts. So if your reign of D-terror takes out all the models in LoS, but there are still models tucked around a corner, and you have more wounds to allocate...they all go away. (Unless it's a blast or large blast.)

You are wrong lends - D weapons do wound - they just do so automatically. Thus you get 2 pools. 1 where the result is the 2-5 on the d chart and the other where the result was a 6.

You then choose which pool to allocate first, selected the closest model, make saves if possible.

The only thing that changes is the fact that when it comes time to apply the wound instead of 1 you apply D3 or 6+d6

Lendys - as the poster above, really. the allocation is of the automatic wound (that then does D3 / whatever wounds) and so the save and any LOS! rolls are also on that single roll.

If you dont LOS! a single wound (that turns into D3) you can end up with a 2 wound IC being the only model hit on a 2-5 result, but still killing 2 models (You roll saves, LOS! the D3 wounds, not the wound that causes D3; that gives you 2 /3 chance of 2 or 3 wounds, if you fail to LOS! at least one of those you now have caused 2 wounds on 2 diffrent models from one single HIT. Totally wrong)

Can you cite where D-weapons automatically wound? I cited very clearly where the rule says "roll on the table above instead of rolling To Wound"

Rolling "To Wound" is a very specific step in the shooting process. (Step 5)

You take saves "As normal"

Saves are part of step 6. Saves are taken against wounds.

Destroyer weapons modify Step 5, and ONLY modify step 6 IF you roll a 6. Show me where, for non-vehicles, it explicitly counters its own statement of "Saves as normal" and therefore you would get to take 1 save against X > 1 wounds.

try reading the Destroyer rule - it very clearly says wounds automatically

The point at issue is that we have on a roll of 2- 5 an Automatic wound which causes d3 wounds. ie GW using "wounds" for two different things in the same sentence. The debate is around which of the definition of "wounds" do you take saves against.

My opinion is that you take saves against the wound packet, as that is what you are allocating, so this has most similarity with the wound allocation process. This means that a single save will avoid all d3 of the wounds, and a single fail will result in all the wounds being taken.

TL/DR version. The most models a standard Wraith Knight will ever kill in the shooting phase is 2, 1 with each gun.

I have to disagree with you because of the order of operations for resolving shooting attacks and what the Destroyer Weapons rule says:

BRB 163: To resolve a Destroyer wepaon's attack, roll To Hit as you would for a standard attack. if the attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To wound or for armor penetration. . . Cover and invulnerable saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a Devastating Hit or Deathblow result is rolled.

So what's "as normal"? Go back to the shooting section.

BRB pg 30:
1. Nominate a unit to shoot (unaffected by special rule)
2. Choose a target (unaffected by special rule)
3. Select a weapon (unaffected by special rule)
4. Roll to hit. (mentioned by special rule, says to resolve as you would for a standard attack)
5. Roll to wound. (Specifically overridden by special rule)
6. Allocate Wounds and remove casualties. (Modified by special rule but you still allocate the wounds one at a time, Destroyer Weapon tells us how many wounds are being allocated though, on a 2-5 it's d3. But this was already accomplished at step 5. We're now at step 6.) A model with a wound allocated to it can take a saving throw to avoid being wounded.
7. Selection another weapon

Because wounds are ALWAYS allocated 1 at a time, it means saves are taken, 1 at a time. You get a save for each wound...not for each hit. (Vehicles are different, but it specifically says you disregard "hits" but that isn't the discussion here.) BRB pg 35 reemphasizes that "take saves and remove casualties" comes after allocating wounds. The Destroyer Weapon rule modified. Step 5 "Roll to wound" It does not modify Step 6. It specifically says "can take a saving throw as normal" The Normal way to do it is attempt to save it per wound. Not per hit.

The destroyer rule then further says "multiple wounds/hull points inflicted by a destroyer hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost)" So you have to allocate the wounds in groupings according to the hits. Thus the groupings of wounds I laid out. But saves are taken normally. Saves are against wounds...NOT against hits. If you are hit with 3 wounds, you have to take 3 saves, you don't get 1 save and if it fails avoid 3 wounds. That isn't how wounds are 'normally' saved.

Vehicles are different because it specifically says (BRB pg 77) that a "hit" is discarded and no HP are lost. Saves are taken against "hits" for vehicles, but they are taken against "Wounds" for non-vehicles.

you are thinking about it wrong. The D weapon doesn't "do" D3 wounds. It does 1, then the model loses D3 instead of one.
It's like instant death, a model may have 6 wounds, but you only "did" one wound, it just loses the rest after.

The quote "The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and causes it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1."
So you perform the saves, as you only took a wound, however since it was a 2-5, instead of losing 1 from the model, it loses D3.

I can understand where people are coming from with their reading of the destroyer rule and how you are reading it.

Normal:
Hit
Roll to Wound
Allocate Wounds
Save Wounds
Remove Casualties

And the argument being
Hit
[Destroyer Weapon Chart]
[Save vs Result]
Remove Casualties

I still don't agree with it because of where I see Destroyer-rules coming into affect and how 'take saves as normal' is worded. But that's a discussion to be had with an opponent before we break out the destroyer weapons.

TL/DR version. The most models a standard Wraith Knight will ever kill in the shooting phase is 2, 1 with each gun.

Yeah, they are still awesome against vehicles like they were before. But a Ranged-D WK is anti-vehicle and is relying on stomps and just its fists to kill things in CC.