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I think Eldar ghost helms operate in the same way but I don't have the most recent book with me. Is there any precedent or consensus on spending a "warp charge" before the psychic phase?

His rules: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Charcterupdate.pdf

RAW: it can't be used.

That's really the only consensus you're going to get.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
RAW: it can't be used.

That's really the only consensus you're going to get.

100% this. If you don't have any warp charges you obviously can't use any.

Hasn't his rules been updated since that PDF?

There is a obvious RAI argument here. If your opponents are willing to argue about such a rule error you would be better off not playing with them. Ignore Darkness.

Just remember to take a warpcharge off the total once you reach the actual psychic phase.

 Quickjager wrote:
There is a obvious RAI argument here. If your opponents are willing to argue about such a rule error you would be better off not playing with them. Ignore Darkness.

Just remember to take a warpcharge off the total once you reach the actual psychic phase.

Because obviously Loth's other special rules, like guaranteed invisibility are not worth enough. The fact is that this moment Sevrin Loth is an outdated character who clearly has special rules that are not compatible with the current edition. You just simply should not play him in 7th edition. To me this seems a bit similar to a Guard player trying to field Macharius or me trying to Field Naaman etc. They are not in the current book, they are not compatible with the rules anymore, don't field them. Loth is obviously much more compatible than the examples I mentioned that haven't been updated since 4th edition (?). Nevertheless, if your opponent lets you use that HOUSE RULE and activate Loth's armour and therefore begin the next phase at -1 warp charges you have to understand that random opponents have zero obligations to play by your house rules if they don't agree with them.

There are no rule errors here, Loth's rules are just outdated.

Players always have zero obligations to play against ANY rule. Doesn't matter if it's official or not. But that doesn't stop the vast majority of players to make do with common FAQs like the ITC one or to come to consensus so both players have fun.

Write the house rule solution down on your army list when you hand it over. Your opponent can read it through, say yay or nay, then you continue on with the game. Simple as that.

Don't ignore Darkness because he is 100% correct on the question that was asked. The consensus is that it doesn't work. The SOLUTION is a simple house rule.

Obviously you have the authority to say because Loth is worth his price. No Invul on your warlord is no biggy.

It is as simple as this

Instead of rolling for warp charges in your psychic phase, do it at the beginning of your turn. You are guaranteed 1 WC from this that you may expend on the armor.

It doesn't matter if the rules are outdated, you can still play him. Grey Knights suffered the same in their transition phase.

 Quickjager wrote:
Obviously you have the authority to say because Loth is worth his price. No Invul on your warlord is no biggy.

It is as simple as this

Instead of rolling for warp charges in your psychic phase, do it at the beginning of your turn. You are guaranteed 1 WC from this that you may expend on the armor.

It doesn't matter if the rules are outdated, you can still play him. Grey Knights suffered the same in their transition phase.

Tigurius or Ezekiel have no invulnerable saves either. Loth doesn't have to be a special snowflake.

In your own games, do whatever you want if you have your opponent's consent. But if someone declines to play against a houseruled Loth... nothing of any value would be lost. One less game against a cheese factory with invisible deathstars?

Blaming the character not the rule. Invisibility is its own problem. But to deny a character a third of his special rules solely because FW is dragging their feet is very... WAAC.

It sounds like you had a bad experience.

 Quickjager wrote:
Blaming the character not the rule. Invisibility is its own problem. But to deny a character a third of his special rules solely because FW is dragging their feet is very... WAAC.

It sounds like you had a bad experience.

Daemon of Tzeentch gives +3 LD while manifesting psychic powers. That use to make it easier to cast psychic powers, now it does nothing. So i get to generate warp charges on a 3+ now to compensate right?

Or how about the Burning Chariot? It use to not be able to move and shoot because it counted as moving and the rider had heavy weapons. But now that the edition changed it can move and shoot for some reason which isn't fair to how it was originally released so I should return it to its former glory and deny from moving and shooting right?

Daemon of Tzeentch affects the warpstorm table, so it still does something. Pray you don't roll a 6.

As for Burning Chariot... is there a reason you would want to nerf the Chariot? The Heavy rule effectively made it from a no-go to actually viable with the change to chariots. It increased the depth of choice in a codex, always a great thing IMO.

I mean if you want to see it go back to the old way just let me know you want to give me handicap.

 Quickjager wrote:
Daemon of Tzeentch affects the warpstorm table, so it still does something. Pray you don't roll a 6.

I don't see why that matters. Severin Loth also still gets to pick what ever spells he wants. Why does he get to get all 6ed special rules completely back and my Daemons of Tzeentch don't.

As for Burning Chariot... is there a reason you would want to nerf the Chariot? The Heavy rule effectively made it from a no-go to actually viable with the change to chariots. It increased the depth of choice in a codex, always a great thing IMO.

Because that how their were when in 6ed when their codex was made. Just like how you insist on letting Severin Loth work when his 6ed rules were made. You can't just cherry pick rules that benefit you. If you insist on having units work like they did in previous editions then that includes the units that were worse in previous editions.

What 6th ed. rules does he get back.

 Quickjager wrote:
What 6th ed. rules does he get back.

The Armour of Selket

How am I cherrypicking rules when his wargear is listed as The Armour of Selket.

If you denied him said armor and the rules associated with the armor, he would not have a armor save nor a psychic hood.

 Quickjager wrote:
How am I cherrypicking rules when his wargear is listed as The Armour of Selket.

If you denied him said armor and the rules associated with the armor, he would not have a armor save nor a psychic hood.

Those still work, just like how Daemon of Tzeentch "still affects the warp storm"

So why does he still get the "2++ invul" part?

Because specific trumps general.

 Quickjager wrote:
Because specific trumps general.

The Armour of Selket doesn't specifically give you permission to generate warp charges at the start of the turn

No, but simply rolling your die for the D6 Warp charges at the beginning of the turn changes nothing that was not previously affected. RAI there is also a case for how it should work, unlike your Daemon rule. By all means, take that +3 Ld for spells if you like, make sure you roll on Santic for the only spell it matters... oh wait.

You are just the type of person who if you argued this in person would simply be denied a game.

EDIT: Also Daemon also affects other rules. You get to re-roll saving throws on 1s', Hatred (Nurgle)

But you have no rules support to do as such. Which is funny coming from the guy who tried insist that rolling d6 warp charges at the start of the turn is a case of "specific vs general"

Also I don't know why you are calling me WAAC. I followed your logic and i nerfed my units as a result such as the Burning Chariot example. Not to mention the face that the stance i have has the Daemon of Tzeentch rule not makes psychic powers easier to case like it was intended to. The only one here that is arguing very adamantly to give his units an advantage is you.

To be fair, the +3 LD for DoT is handy if you perils.

I never said "rolling d6 warp charges at the start of the turn is a case of "specific vs general". I offered the rolling the Winds of the Warp at the beginning of the game turn to address a RAI issue. One that would let the character to function within a transitional period and I am sure reasonable opponents would accept as logical.

You asked why the Armour should be allowed a 2++? That was "specific vs. general". The wargear rule does say the 2++ is allowed.

Also I never called you WAAC.

You deliberately are taking two separate things I said and making it convoluted. As for giving his units advantages I have 2 functional armies, 1 ally LoW, and 1 unit I made to indulge myself.

Grey Knights
Orks
Knight Errant
10-man Deathwatch Sternguard.

I apologize I am trying to give a fellow hobbyist an answer that will let him pursue an army that interests him, just because FW is slow. I believe Aijec is a very reasonable person based on the fact he felt prudent to ask here before showing up with an unknown variable. Because of that I am lead to believe further he is capable of talking to his opponent respectfully and letting him know he would like to play his favorite army, but due to some bumbling his rules are ever so slightly out-of-order.

I think you should be more like him in that regard.

 Robisagg wrote:
To be fair, the +3 LD for DoT is handy if you perils.

I know but that's not the point.

Quickjagger insists on making up a rule so that Sevrin Loth can make a 2++ because that is RAI when it was made in 6ed.

My point of bringing of Daemon of Tzeentch was to mirror his insistence. It also ceased to function as intended from its 6ed version. GW has also dragged their feet on updating the Daemon of Tzeentch rule to 7ed. So why can't i make up a rule to make Daemon of Tzeentch work as intended in 6ed?

How is it supposed to function RAI. Can you explain, you never have.

 Quickjager wrote:
How is it supposed to function RAI. Can you explain, you never have.

In 6ed, Daemon of Tzeentch was intended to increase the odds of successful casting a psychic power by increasing its LD to make them more likely to pass the Ld test needed to cast that power. In 7ed Daemon of Tzeentch no longer increases the odds of casting a Psychic power as you don't use Ld to do so.

So why can't i make up a rule to make Daemon of Tzeentch work as intended, but you can do so for Sevrin Loth?

 Quickjager wrote:
How is it supposed to function RAI. Can you explain, you never have.

He has tried to explain it and you have even replied to those messages in this thread.

You still haven't said how it would be executed RAI in 7th.

 Quickjager wrote:
You still haven't said how it would be executed RAI in 7th.

You are missing the point. Its not that I actually want to fix the Daemon of Tzeentch rule. Its that I'm showing you if you insist on changing rules to make them work as intended from when the rule was written several editions ago its only fair to apply it to everything else (like Daemon of Tzeentch, or the Burning Chariot)

 Quickjager wrote:
You still haven't said how it would be executed RAI in 7th.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Daemon of Tzeentch gives +3 LD while manifesting psychic powers. That use to make it easier to cast psychic powers, now it does nothing. So i get to generate warp charges on a 3+ now to compensate right?

He has.