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Was having a small debate in another thread when this poped up on lance vs the necron QS rules. Some people where saying lance applies after qs and other where saying that they apply at the same time causing a conflict thus codex rule beats brb rule. Here are the rules in question followed with an explanation of my view after.

Basic versus Advanced.

On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occures, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Sequencing

While playing Wargammer 40,000 you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the start of the Movement phase' or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

Multiple Modifiers

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multiplies, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values."

Lance

Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

Quantum Shielding

"A vehicle equipped with active quantum shielding counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

People have been saying that the sequencing rule takes affect because they are both trying to resolve when a unit with lance is attacking a vehicle with qs. This is wrong because Lance does not resolve when attacking, just like QS it is constantly active and in effect just like QS and both of them have no resolve timing.

To pre-rebuttle the claim that "Are you telling me that the Lance is affecting the Ghost Ark even when it's not shooting it? Then every model that shoots it at av 12!" No that is not how the rule works. The rule clearly states that only the weapons with the Lance special rule counts the vehicles AV as 12 if it is higher. Yes it is effecting a land raider or monolith all the time even when it isn't attacking it but that doesn't change the land raider or monolith's av for weapons that don't have the lance special rule. A storm shield still gives a model a 3++ invul even if it isn't being shot at.

The lance special rule that is a set value that is constant, it has no 'when/at/on a roll of X' triggers. QS is also a special rule that is a set value that is constant, the only trigger it has is when it takes a pen but otherwise it too is constant on the set modifier.

Because both special rules are set modifiers that are constant this caused a conflict since they are both trying to cause the AV to change to two different values. Sequencing doesn't take place because they aren't trying to resolve at certain times so we must look at basic vs advance. The Lance rule is printed in the BRB and QS is printed in codex necrons, this means that the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.

To me it is quite clear RAW wise that QS beats out Lance special rule but I welcome other peoples thoughts about it.

There is no RAW conflict.

It's AV13.

Lance treats it as if it were AV12, it doesn't actually modify the AV using the multiple modifers rules.

If anything, you could claim sequencing of events rules to get around QS.

 Frozocrone wrote:
There is no RAW conflict.

It's AV13.

Lance treats it as if it were AV12, it doesn't actually modify the AV using the multiple modifers rules.

If anything, you could claim sequencing of events rules to get around QS.

lance and qs use the exact same wording.

Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12

"A vehicle equipped with active quantum shielding counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

"counts as" is changing it's value so it is a set modifier.

The lance special rule that is a set value that is constant, it has no 'when/at/on a roll of X' triggers.

there is no resolve trigger, you can't claim sequencing as previously stated.

two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the start of the Movement phase' or similar.

neither of these rules have such a trigger or similar.

I would invoke specific vs general.

"This armor value is always armor 13" is more general than "When this weapon is fired, what it shoots at is armor 12."

Previous discussion on this topic.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I would invoke specific vs general.

"This armor value is always armor 13" is more general than "When this weapon is fired, what it shoots at is armor 12."

Except the lance rule doesn't say 'when this weapon is fired' the lance rule in its entirety is

Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

there is no resolve trigger on when it happens (roll on a x, during the shooting phase, etc etc)

HIWPI : Both are triggered at same time, which is when resolving the armor penetrating roll and, via the BRB, it is the opponents turn therefore he/she picks the order of application. This means QS will almost always be selected to resolve first followed by lance.

 Brillow80 wrote:
HIWPI : Both are triggered at same time, which is when resolving the armor penetrating roll and, via the BRB, it is the opponents turn therefore he/she picks the order of application. This means QS will almost always be selected to resolve first followed by lance.

If only Multiple Modifiers actually cared which came first, but they do not.

Even if QS is considered activated first, Lance comes in and tries to change what QS is doing. A conflict occurs in this attempt. Basic vs Advanced rules kick in since Lance is a Rulebook Advanced Rule and Quantum Shielding is a Codex Advanced Rule. Since Codex Rules have primacy in conflicts, the resolution is in favor of Quantum Shielding sticking its tongue out and flipping off Lance which just struggles in vain to try and lower the AV for the Vehicle. *The actual actions of the two rules are just for perspective and not to be taken seriously.*

Oberron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I would invoke specific vs general.

"This armor value is always armor 13" is more general than "When this weapon is fired, what it shoots at is armor 12."

Except the lance rule doesn't say 'when this weapon is fired' the lance rule in its entirety is

Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

there is no resolve trigger on when it happens (roll on a x, during the shooting phase, etc etc)

Well, to bring in specific versus general again, I still think the QS rule is more general.

QS is invoked: When the vehicle is being shot at, when the vehicle is being rammed, when Hammer of Wrath is resolved, and when a Thunderblitz is being resolved.

Lance is invoked: when the weapon with the special rule fires.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, to bring in specific versus general again, I still think the QS rule is more general.

Somewhat unimportant since specific does not always trump general as such, and we already have rules to cover such interactions.

Also, your determination is quite arbitrary in that QS is more general. It is quite specific, actually, and does the same job that Lance does, just in a different direction.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
QS is invoked: When the vehicle is being shot at, when the vehicle is being rammed, when Hammer of Wrath is resolved, and when a Thunderblitz is being resolved.

Lance is invoked: when the weapon with the special rule fires.

You're talking about timing here or number of times it is recognized. Timing does not matter in these cases since neither rule applies a time frame of invocation. The number of times it is recognized also does not matter, since none of the rules care about that and do not specifically give a rule authority just because it is used in fewer circumstances.

A proper example of "Specific vs General" (which is just a gaming convention, not a rule) is Hard To Hit and Skyfire. Hard To Hit forces a unit to Snap Fire at the it unless they have Skyfire. Skyfire allows the shooting model/weapon to ignore Hard To Hit.

Another example would be Snap Fire and Markerlights. Snap Fire shots cannot be modified or changed unless specifically stated. Markerlights specifically state that they can modify Snap Shots.

To further go along, Dark Angels have the ability to fire Overwatch at BS 2 via their Grim Resolve. However, if the unit they are Overwatching against has the Invisibility Psychic Power on them, Grim Resolve cannot change that, so they are back to BS 1. In addition, even though their BS is higher, Blast Weapons would still not be able to fire Overwatch since Grim Resolve does not specifically address this.

I thought this was FAQ'd that the Lance reduces the AV to 12. Maybe it was removed in a more recent version of the FAQ's, it has been a while since I have needed to go look.

megatrons2nd wrote:I thought this was FAQ'd that the Lance reduces the AV to 12. Maybe it was removed in a more recent version of the FAQ's, it has been a while since I have needed to go look.

There are some tournaments that have faq'd it so that lance beats the new qs but those are not official faqs.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oberron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I would invoke specific vs general.

"This armor value is always armor 13" is more general than "When this weapon is fired, what it shoots at is armor 12."

Except the lance rule doesn't say 'when this weapon is fired' the lance rule in its entirety is

Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

there is no resolve trigger on when it happens (roll on a x, during the shooting phase, etc etc)

Well, to bring in specific versus general again, I still think the QS rule is more general.

QS is invoked: When the vehicle is being shot at, when the vehicle is being rammed, when Hammer of Wrath is resolved, and when a Thunderblitz is being resolved.

Lance is invoked: when the weapon with the special rule fires.

Except once again you are making up rules when qs and lance in invoked. There is no resolve trigger on when it happens, they are both constant.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I thought this was FAQ'd that the Lance reduces the AV to 12. Maybe it was removed in a more recent version of the FAQ's, it has been a while since I have needed to go look.

That was for the previous codex, in which QS added to the AV while Lance "Counts As". The current codex has Quantum Shielding "Counts As" just like Lance.

So, that would almost be like insisting Markerlights only affect models and not units or disallowing Codex Marines Chapter Traits.

Both rules cause a vehicle armor to count as something else. The lance rule says to count it as 12 if it is higher than twelve. Quantum shielding says to count the value as 13. Both are constant, but one specifically says how it interacts with the other (lance gives a prerequisite situation in order for it to take effect) meaning that if both are happening, lance cannot occur unless quantum shielding is also active at the same time.

So, QS says the armor value counts as 13, lance says that any armor value above 12 counts as twelve. They aren't in conflict at all, they are occurring at the same time (at all times) and one says it directly counters the other (lance trumps QS) making it pretty clear to me that this is how it should be resolved.

From a fluff standpoint, eldar have tech that can mitigate some of the potency of the tech of their oldest current enemy. Makes sense to me.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Both rules cause a vehicle armor to count as something else. The lance rule says to count it as 12 if it is higher than twelve. Quantum shielding says to count the value as 13. Both are constant, but one specifically says how it interacts with the other (lance gives a prerequisite situation in order for it to take effect) meaning that if both are happening, lance cannot occur unless quantum shielding is also active at the same time.

So, QS says the armor value counts as 13, lance says that any armor value above 12 counts as twelve. They aren't in conflict at all, they are occurring at the same time (at all times) and one says it directly counters the other (lance trumps QS) making it pretty clear to me that this is how it should be resolved.

If they are not in conflict, explain how AV 12 is AV 13? Something cannot be two things at the same time.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
From a fluff standpoint, eldar have tech that can mitigate some of the potency of the tech of their oldest current enemy. Makes sense to me.

From a fluff standpoint, they haven't fought Necrons for 65 million years and completely shattered their civilization. Between these two factors, they have changed their tech to deal with Orks, Humanity, Daemons, and other threats, and have had to relearn how to fight the Necrons all over again.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Both rules cause a vehicle armor to count as something else. The lance rule says to count it as 12 if it is higher than twelve. Quantum shielding says to count the value as 13. Both are constant, but one specifically says how it interacts with the other (lance gives a prerequisite situation in order for it to take effect) meaning that if both are happening, lance cannot occur unless quantum shielding is also active at the same time.

So, QS says the armor value counts as 13, lance says that any armor value above 12 counts as twelve. They aren't in conflict at all, they are occurring at the same time (at all times) and one says it directly counters the other (lance trumps QS) making it pretty clear to me that this is how it should be resolved.

From a fluff standpoint, eldar have tech that can mitigate some of the potency of the tech of their oldest current enemy. Makes sense to me.

Have an exalt, good way put it.

From an RAI standpoint, I would think a weapon with the Lance special rule is designed so that it would never be required to roll pen at higher than AV12. If a player is rolling vs 13 then the Lance rule has been violated where no permission has been granted to do so.

 Brillow80 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Both rules cause a vehicle armor to count as something else. The lance rule says to count it as 12 if it is higher than twelve. Quantum shielding says to count the value as 13. Both are constant, but one specifically says how it interacts with the other (lance gives a prerequisite situation in order for it to take effect) meaning that if both are happening, lance cannot occur unless quantum shielding is also active at the same time.

So, QS says the armor value counts as 13, lance says that any armor value above 12 counts as twelve. They aren't in conflict at all, they are occurring at the same time (at all times) and one says it directly counters the other (lance trumps QS) making it pretty clear to me that this is how it should be resolved.

From a fluff standpoint, eldar have tech that can mitigate some of the potency of the tech of their oldest current enemy. Makes sense to me.

Have an exalt, good way put it.

From an RAI standpoint, I would think a weapon with the Lance special rule is designed so that it would never be required to roll pen at higher than AV12. If a player is rolling vs 13 then the Lance rule has been violated where no permission has been granted to do so.

And if a player is rolling vs 12 then the qs rule has been violated where no permission has been granted to do so. Thus a conflict, thus we go what it says under basic vs advance which tells us codex wins.

Oberron wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Both rules cause a vehicle armor to count as something else. The lance rule says to count it as 12 if it is higher than twelve. Quantum shielding says to count the value as 13. Both are constant, but one specifically says how it interacts with the other (lance gives a prerequisite situation in order for it to take effect) meaning that if both are happening, lance cannot occur unless quantum shielding is also active at the same time.

So, QS says the armor value counts as 13, lance says that any armor value above 12 counts as twelve. They aren't in conflict at all, they are occurring at the same time (at all times) and one says it directly counters the other (lance trumps QS) making it pretty clear to me that this is how it should be resolved.

From a fluff standpoint, eldar have tech that can mitigate some of the potency of the tech of their oldest current enemy. Makes sense to me.

Have an exalt, good way put it.

From an RAI standpoint, I would think a weapon with the Lance special rule is designed so that it would never be required to roll pen at higher than AV12. If a player is rolling vs 13 then the Lance rule has been violated where no permission has been granted to do so.

And if a player is rolling vs 12 then the qs rule has been violated where no permission has been granted to do so. Thus a conflict, thus we go what it says under basic vs advance which tells us codex wins.

Hmm. I see your point. Well said.
IMHO as a Necron player, I would benefit from codex over BRB but I wouldn't, in the Spirit of the Game, take the QS over the Lance. I'd jink the skimmer, pray for a 4+, and throw back another tasty beverage.

 Brillow80 wrote:
Hmm. I see your point. Well said.
IMHO as a Necron player, I would benefit from codex over BRB but I wouldn't, in the Spirit of the Game, take the QS over the Lance. I'd jink the skimmer, pray for a 4+, and throw back another tasty beverage.

Spirit of the Game?

So someone isn't able to take full advantage of their Wargear according to the rules just because some think it's unsportsmanlike?

Isn't it just as unsportsmanlike to tell a Land Raider pilot his Armor isn't as good as he though it was?

Charistoph wrote:

 Brillow80 wrote:
Hmm. I see your point. Well said.
IMHO as a Necron player, I would benefit from codex over BRB but I wouldn't, in the Spirit of the Game, take the QS over the Lance. I'd jink the skimmer, pray for a 4+, and throw back another tasty beverage.

Spirit of the Game?

So someone isn't able to take full advantage of their Wargear according to the rules just because some think it's unsportsmanlike?

Isn't it just as unsportsmanlike to tell a Land Raider pilot his Armor isn't as good as he though it was?

If he and his opponent has agreed to play the game that way then that is their choice just like the other person who said his HIWPi. He isn't saying that is how he will always play it and force others to play it his way.

Oberron wrote:
If he and his opponent has agreed to play the game that way then that is their choice just like the other person who said his HIWPi. He isn't saying that is how he will always play it and force others to play it his way.

But he didn't say that. He is implying that he will not even discuss it and play the weaker version just because it is the weaker version.

That's not always the Spirit of the game.

Charistoph wrote:

Oberron wrote:
If he and his opponent has agreed to play the game that way then that is their choice just like the other person who said his HIWPi. He isn't saying that is how he will always play it and force others to play it his way.

But he didn't say that. He is implying that he will not even discuss it and play the weaker version just because it is the weaker version.

That's not always the Spirit of the game.

The spirit of the game is indeed subjective. If my oppenent/friend wishes me to use QS over Lance they will have to twist my arm pretty hard. Seriously tho, in a basement game amongst inebriated friends I am perfectly comfortable taking the AV12. It's Necrons after all, that have lots of extra power I can leverage.

Please tho, continue the discussion, no need to derail on my account.

Your armor value is 11, your quantum shielding says the armor value counts as 13, my lance says that if your armor value is above 12, it counts as 12.

In order for our rules to exist on the table at all, lance has to override QS. Otherwise lance cannot exist because in order for it to work at all you have to have an armor value above av12, which your QS says your are. It works in a circle, and no matter which direction you go in a circle you will reach the same point.

You are an armor value above 12, lance says exactly what to do in that situation. You cannot say the same in reverse because QS doesn't state how it interacts with things that also modify values. In the corebook it says general versus specific, and codex trumps rulebook. My lance doesn't stop your quantum shielding from existing, it just allows my weapon to count your armor value as 12.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Your armor value is 11, your quantum shielding says the armor value counts as 13, my lance says that if your armor value is above 12, it counts as 12.

In order for our rules to exist on the table at all, lance has to override QS. Otherwise lance cannot exist because in order for it to work at all you have to have an armor value above av12, which your QS says your are. It works in a circle, and no matter which direction you go in a circle you will reach the same point.

You are an armor value above 12, lance says exactly what to do in that situation. You cannot say the same in reverse because QS doesn't state how it interacts with things that also modify values. In the corebook it says general versus specific, and codex trumps rulebook. My lance doesn't stop your quantum shielding from existing, it just allows my weapon to count your armor value as 12.

And the rule to support this is...? You're coming at it from a Balance stand point. Great for House Rules and Tournament Organizers and when declaring HYWPI.

But, both rules can exist on the table, but that doesn't mean that one will be effective. If all my models have Fear, than facing off against Space Marines or Daemons is makes my Fear useless. Fear still exists and is on the table, but does that mean that Fear should start affecting Daemons and Space Marines?

Necron Wraiths and C'tan have Invul Saves that match their Armour Saves. Should their Invulnerable Save be negated when they are hit with a weapon with AP that can ignore their Armour Saves?

Modifiers rarely state how they interact with each other. Multiple Modifiers covers most cases. When they do not, then Basic vs Advanced comes in to play. If they are both the same "level" of rule, i.e. Codex Advanced Rules, then we can start looking for more exotic answers like Sequencing coming in to play.

But Lance is not a Codex Advanced Rule, it is a Rulebook Rule, and Quantum Shielding is a Codex Advanced Rule. If Lance is counting the AV as 12, then Quantum Shielding is not counting it as 13. It is really that simply.

Except the point where you only are modifying the armor value with lance AFTER determining that the armor value is above 12. If quantum shielding is active, then it allows lance to activate. Nowhere in the rules does it state when or in what order to count two set number modifiers. What the rules cause is a situation where your quantum shielding makes your armor a certain value, which is the only reason my weapons' special rule gets to activate.

Without QS, I wouldn't get lance at all. You can't say lance doesn't affect quantum shielding because quantum shielding is the only reason I get to use lance in the first place. They aren't in direct contradiction because nowhere does lance say it counts armor values as being at their base value. What it does do is allow for the mitigation of SOME of the benefits of quantum shielding.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Your armor value is 11, your quantum shielding says the armor value counts as 13, my lance says that if your armor value is above 12, it counts as 12.

In order for our rules to exist on the table at all, lance has to override QS. Otherwise lance cannot exist because in order for it to work at all you have to have an armor value above av12, which your QS says your are. It works in a circle, and no matter which direction you go in a circle you will reach the same point.

You are an armor value above 12, lance says exactly what to do in that situation. You cannot say the same in reverse because QS doesn't state how it interacts with things that also modify values. In the corebook it says general versus specific, and codex trumps rulebook. My lance doesn't stop your quantum shielding from existing, it just allows my weapon to count your armor value as 12.

If lance is counting the av as 12 then it is stopping the QS from counting the av as 13. Please provide rules quotes that lance 'has to override qs' I've already provided rules that support my argument.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Except the point where you only are modifying the armor value with lance AFTER determining that the armor value is above 12. If quantum shielding is active, then it allows lance to activate. Nowhere in the rules does it state when or in what order to count two set number modifiers. What the rules cause is a situation where your quantum shielding makes your armor a certain value, which is the only reason my weapons' special rule gets to activate.

Without QS, I wouldn't get lance at all. You can't say lance doesn't affect quantum shielding because quantum shielding is the only reason I get to use lance in the first place. They aren't in direct contradiction because nowhere does lance say it counts armor values as being at their base value. What it does do is allow for the mitigation of SOME of the benefits of quantum shielding.

Lance is constantly active just like QS is. There is no flag for when Lance 'resolves'. They are in direct conflict because Lance and QS are both trying to change the AV to a set amount, since they are both saying different amounts this is a conflict.

As for rules that state when to count two or more modifiers it clearly does on pg 8 in the BRB under multiple modifiers which has been partially posted in the intro. It tells us to apply any set values last, both are set values so both are applied last which is creating a conflict. If you have rules support for your claims please share them.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Except the point where you only are modifying the armor value with lance AFTER determining that the armor value is above 12. If quantum shielding is active, then it allows lance to activate. Nowhere in the rules does it state when or in what order to count two set number modifiers. What the rules cause is a situation where your quantum shielding makes your armor a certain value, which is the only reason my weapons' special rule gets to activate.

Without QS, I wouldn't get lance at all. You can't say lance doesn't affect quantum shielding because quantum shielding is the only reason I get to use lance in the first place. They aren't in direct contradiction because nowhere does lance say it counts armor values as being at their base value. What it does do is allow for the mitigation of SOME of the benefits of quantum shielding.

Yes, I can say that QS is not affected by Lance, for every reason I have given you. I have even referenced the rules which cover them.

Can you point out where Lance will override any other counts as AV rule when it hits? I cannot find it.

I will say it again, the Multiple Modifiers rule does not care WHEN the modifier is applied, first, last, or middle, does not matter. A Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf carrying a Power Fist and somehow gains Furious Charge. The Power Fist modifier is applied first, then the Thunder Wolf's modifier and the Furious Charge together. If he was hit with a Psyker Power (kill the witch) which set his Str to (or counted it as) 3 before he Charged, he would still be hitting with Str 3, not 4, not 8, not 10, just 3.

Why? Because Set Values are applied last, and timing of the modifier means jack all to them.

For the record, ITC ruled in favor of lance. At my FLGS, I brought up the question after seeing this thread and the response was unanimous laughter and comments of TFG stretching rule lawyering to douchey level and that included all three Necron players chiming in.

Onto me... Lance works period. There is no advanced versus basic because Lance is not actually lowering the value of resulting from Quantum shield. If another enemy fires your AV is still 13 if the lance fails.

If the lance mechanism was similar to a Markerlight, say tag a vehicule and lower it's armor for someone else. THEN the rules would be in conflict beause one directly affects the other and advanced would take over basic.

But that is not the case. QS says AV counts as 13 and it is 13. Lance says ANYTHING above 12 is 12. Lance does not affect QS, lance affects the weapon with the lance attribute. Is 13 greater than 12? Yes, then the weapon rolls vs 12.

How is this actually so hard to understand?

You have quantum shielding, it counts your av as 13. I have lance, it says that IF you have an av above 12, it counts as 12.

Specific overrides general. Lance has a listed prerequisite, meaning that there has to be other factors present prior to its use. QS has no specific predetermining factors allowing it to function, and no rule stating that it would override other set values should they occur.

What you say above is that set modifiers dont care when they apply, lance actually does. That is where the rule lies in lance overriding other set values, in order for lance to activate the other set modifier in this instance HAS to already be active.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
For the record, ITC ruled in favor of lance. At my FLGS, I brought up the question after seeing this thread and the response was unanimous laughter and comments of TFG stretching rule lawyering to douchey level and that included all three Necron players chiming

ITC can use homerules all they like to help "patch up" game rules but that is all they are, house rules. I'm sure your FLGS has pointed out rules for your case instead of blind acceptance that the old way of lance vs qs still works the same.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
There is no advanced versus basic because Lance is not actually lowering the value of resulting from Quantum shield. QS says AV counts as 13 and it is 13. Lance says ANYTHING above 12 is 12.

These two sentences contradict each other clearly showing that there is a conflict.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
If another enemy fires your AV is still 13 if the lance fails.

Lance does not effect other units without the lance special rule so this statement is pointless.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
THEN the rules would be in conflict beause one directly affects the other and advanced would take over basic.

But that is not the case. QS says AV counts as 13 and it is 13. Lance says ANYTHING above 12 is 12.

Once again these two sentences contradict each other is WS counts the av as 13 and lance is counting it as 12 there is conflict.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Lance does not affect QS, lance affects the weapon with the lance attribute.

If lance does not affect qs why are you arguing that it changes what av qs is saying the av is?

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Is 13 greater than 12? Yes, then the weapon rolls vs 12.

Except the av is 11 starting value and the lance rule is a set modifier and the qs is also a set modifier. is 13 greater than 12? yes, Is there conflict that 12 and 13 are different numbers? Yes, what happens when a conflict arises? codex trumps brb.


Having rules to back up your stance instead of speculation is a wonderful way to help prove your point, please provide proof.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
How is this actually so hard to understand?

You have quantum shielding, it counts your av as 13. I have lance, it says that IF you have an av above 12, it counts as 12.

Specific overrides general.

On specific overrides general are you talking about in the basic vs advanced part of the rules on pg 13 in the brb that states" Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting base rules." Because both lance and qs are advanced rules, or are you talking about sequencing

While playing Wargammer 40,000 you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the start of the Movement phase' or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

in which there is no flag that triggers lance or qs as they are both constant effects.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
QS has no specific predetermining factors allowing it to function, and no rule stating that it would override other set values should they occur.

Lance has no rule stating that it would override other set values should they occur either, Unless you have a rule that supports this?



[quote=Lythrandire Biehrellian 668169 8218109 nullWhat you say above is that set modifiers dont care when they apply, lance actually does. That is where the rule lies in lance overriding other set values, in order for lance to activate the other set modifier in this instance HAS to already be active.