Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Chaos Psychic Focus states that any psyker with a mark of chaos automatically knows the primaris power of his god in addition to any others it knows. The Chaos codex states any psyker with a mark must generate at least one power from his god's discipline. Does the primaris power of the god count as generating a power from that table? Or does he essentially have to know 2 powers from the chaos codex?

He has to know two. You roll one, and get the primaris free. Then roll the rest on whatever.

Most play that "automatically knows" does not equal "generated". So a CSM sorcerer has to take 2 god powers. The side effect of this is that Daemons psykers can gain both Chaos Focus and normal Psychic Focus.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Most play that "automatically knows" does not equal "generated".

The rules state this as well.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The side effect of this is that Daemons psykers can gain both Chaos Focus and normal Psychic Focus.

In order to gain normal Psychic Focus a psyker must generate all his powers from the same discipline. Because of Chaos Psychic Focus a daemon psyker will always have a power that he did not generate (generated powers are those you roll for). Therefore he cannot fulfill the requirement that he generate all his powers from the same discipline. Therefore he does not gain Psychic Focus.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The side effect of this is that Daemons psykers can gain both Chaos Focus and normal Psychic Focus.

In order to gain normal Psychic Focus a psyker must generate all his powers from the same discipline. Because of Chaos Psychic Focus a daemon psyker will always have a power that he did not generate (generated powers are those you roll for). Therefore he cannot fulfill the requirement that he generate all his powers from the same discipline. Therefore he does not gain Psychic Focus.

You must realise your argument is self defeating. You agreed that a Daemon psyker did not generate the Chaos Focus power. So it is entirely possible for him to generate all of his powers from the same discipline, thereby gaining psychic focus as well.

Just accept there are problems with the Psychic Phase entirely and talk it out with your opponents.

Wondering a few things as I am away from the book, but is there a 'where possible' clause attached to the 'must generate' requirement?
What happens if the Model in question generates 0 powers, and instead simply begins the game knowing X, Y and Z?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The side effect of this is that Daemons psykers can gain both Chaos Focus and normal Psychic Focus.

In order to gain normal Psychic Focus a psyker must generate all his powers from the same discipline. Because of Chaos Psychic Focus a daemon psyker will always have a power that he did not generate (generated powers are those you roll for). Therefore he cannot fulfill the requirement that he generate all his powers from the same discipline. Therefore he does not gain Psychic Focus.

You must realise your argument is self defeating. You agreed that a Daemon psyker did not generate the Chaos Focus power. So it is entirely possible for him to generate all of his powers from the same discipline, thereby gaining psychic focus as well.

If he was rolling on the chaos table and that's it, sure. But then you'd only get the primaries from either chaos psychic focus or psychic focus.

Since he has to roll at least once on the chaos table, he won't be able to receive psychic focus for any other table, but gains chaos psychic focus for his god's table.

No, his post specifically referred to a daemon psyker. Who for example could generate all their powers from malefic, giving them summoning primaris as well through psychic focus. They would also gain their gods primaris power through chaos focus as this power is not generated but automatically known.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
No, his post specifically referred to a daemon psyker. Who for example could generate all their powers from malefic, giving them summoning primaris as well through psychic focus. They would also gain their gods primaris power through chaos focus as this power is not generated but automatically known.

Read the rule again carefully - there's a very subtle point here that is often missed. It doesn't require you to only generate powers from a single discipline - it requires you to generate all your powers from a single discipline. Did the daemon generate all his powers from a single discipline? No, he has a power he did not generate (he has it automatically from Chaos Psychic Focus). Therefore he did not generate all his powers from a single discipline and does not gain Psychic Focus.

What about Force Weapon carrying Models, do they lose their Psychic Focus?
It is hard to find a Model that doesn't begin the game knowing at least one automatic power that wasn't generated on a table.

JinxDragon wrote:
What about Force Weapon carrying Models, do they lose their Psychic Focus?

Force is given as the example when they state any psychic powers which are not a part of a discipline are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus (hopefully you weren't asking a rhetorical question ).

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
No, his post specifically referred to a daemon psyker. Who for example could generate all their powers from malefic, giving them summoning primaris as well through psychic focus. They would also gain their gods primaris power through chaos focus as this power is not generated but automatically known.

Read the rule again carefully - there's a very subtle point here that is often missed. It doesn't require you to only generate powers from a single discipline - it requires you to generate all your powers from a single discipline. Did the daemon generate all his powers from a single discipline? No, he has a power he did not generate (he has it automatically from Chaos Psychic Focus). Therefore he did not generate all his powers from a single discipline and does not gain Psychic Focus.

You're not adding anything new here; just repeating your self defeating argument. Again you've stated that the Chaos Focus power is not generated, so how can you possibly then also count it as a generated power for the purpose of determining whether or not he gains Psychic Focus?

Actually overlooked that specific clause, happens from time to time, but it is curious now I look at it...
If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus.
- Psychic Focus

Why mention powers that would not be generated, as they are not from a discipline, at all?
Why in a way that it grants a specific exception that, theoretically, would prevent these undisciplined powers from blocking Psychic Focus?

Maybe I should stick my head into the Psychic Phase more, I just shelved the whole thing as 'Broken from Rule as Written, try again later' and walked away....

Psychic focus only cares about Generated powers.

If all of a psykers generated powers were generated from a single discipline then the psyker gains Psychic focus.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
No, his post specifically referred to a daemon psyker. Who for example could generate all their powers from malefic, giving them summoning primaris as well through psychic focus. They would also gain their gods primaris power through chaos focus as this power is not generated but automatically known.

Read the rule again carefully - there's a very subtle point here that is often missed. It doesn't require you to only generate powers from a single discipline - it requires you to generate all your powers from a single discipline. Did the daemon generate all his powers from a single discipline? No, he has a power he did not generate (he has it automatically from Chaos Psychic Focus). Therefore he did not generate all his powers from a single discipline and does not gain Psychic Focus.

You're not adding anything new here; just repeating your self defeating argument. Again you've stated that the Chaos Focus power is not generated, so how can you possibly then also count it as a generated power for the purpose of determining whether or not he gains Psychic Focus?

Because that's not what the rule says. Consider the difference in meaning between the following 2 statements:

1. All your powers must be generated from the same discipline.
2. All the powers you generate must be from the same discipline.

Once you figure out the difference between those 2 statements it should be clear why daemon's don't gain Psychic Focus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Psychic focus only cares about Generated powers.

If all of a psykers generated powers were generated from a single discipline then the psyker gains Psychic focus.

This is not supported by the RAW.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Psychic focus only cares about Generated powers.

If all of a psykers generated powers were generated from a single discipline then the psyker gains Psychic focus.

This is not supported by the RAW.

Yes it is supported by the RAW. it is all in the Psychic Focus rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Psychic focus only cares about Generated powers.

If all of a psykers generated powers were generated from a single discipline then the psyker gains Psychic focus.

This is not supported by the RAW.

Yes it is supported by the RAW. it is all in the Psychic Focus rule.

*sigh* Ok, here we go...

Tell me, what is the difference in meaning between the following 2 statements?

1. All your powers must be generated from the same discipline.
2. All the powers you generate must be from the same discipline.

If you can't identify the difference in meaning between the above 2 statements then there's really nothing more to discuss at this time - come back when you've figured it out. Thanks.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Psychic focus only cares about Generated powers.

If all of a psykers generated powers were generated from a single discipline then the psyker gains Psychic focus.

This is not supported by the RAW.

Yes it is supported by the RAW. it is all in the Psychic Focus rule.

*sigh* Ok, here we go...

Tell me, what is the difference in meaning between the following 2 statements?

1. All your powers must be generated from the same discipline.
2. All the powers you generate must be from the same discipline.

If you can't identify the difference in meaning between the above 2 statements then there's really nothing more to discuss at this time - come back when you've figured it out. Thanks.

That question is irrelevant.

Generating powers have a specific process

Generate has only one meaning in the 40K ruleset, because the 40K ruleset defines generating Psychic Powers. This is a specific process defined in the BRB as:

"the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated, as described below."(The psychic Phase section, Number of Psychic Powers sub-section)

"a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline" (The Psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Psykers generate powers randomly, out of a chosen discipline. You generate a number of psychic powers equal to the psykers Mastery Level.

Therefore "Generated powers" only consist of the powers you roll for.

Currently, as it stands, they list two methods and two methods alone as to how powers are generated. You cannot claim a power is generated unless it follows those two methods.

"Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers." (The Psychic Phase section, Primaris Powers sub-section).

Basically if a psyker chooses all of his powers from the same psychic discipline he gets Psychic Focus. This is clearly only dealing with powers the psyker can choose. no other powers are considered, because the psyker has chosen all of his powers (That he has a choice on) from one discipline. Chaos Psychic focus is never a choice, so you do not choose that power, you are still gaining Psychic focus.

If you generate all your powers from one disciplne you get focus, not if all the powers you have are from one discipline you gain focus. It places the limit on generation - if you gain powers in another way then you can still have generated all your powers from one discipline.


In context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.


As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

The Chaos Psychic Focus is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

Ababdbabdbon has it right.

by having a power from another discipline, especially one that wasn't generated, you have broken the first restriction in the rule.

It starts with "if you generate all your powers from the same discipline"

You generate 3 from malefic, and have the change primaris.

You have 4 powers. Were all of those 4 powers generated from the malefic discipline? No. FlickerIng fire was not generated from the same discipline as your other 3 powers.
The fact that it wasn't "generated" at all only means you have ignored both requirements of the rule instead of just 1.

The only exclusion to the rule requires any other powers to belong to no discipline. All of the chaos primaris powers obviously belong to their respective disciplines

DR, the issue I have, is if you only consider the powers you roll for, when determining if you have Psychic Focus, then the note about not including powers that are not from a discipline (such as Force) means absolutely nothing, as no Psyker ever rolls for the Force power.

Additionally, the Tyranid FAQ implies that powers a psyker knows are considered to be generated. Broodlords start with The Horror. They do not roll for any powers. The Power of the Hive Mind Primaris, has an addendum that if the Psyker is not a Synapse creature it becomes a Synapse Creature. This addendum only applies to a Broodlord, who does generate any powers.

Ninja'd

But i see where the problem is now.

You seem to be thinking that "all" means "all generated"

"If a Psyker generates ALL of his powers from the same psychic discipline"

It's just not the case. All means all. It does not specify generated powers as you claim.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Psychic focus only cares about Generated powers.

If all of a psykers generated powers were generated from a single discipline then the psyker gains Psychic focus.

This is not supported by the RAW.

Yes it is supported by the RAW. it is all in the Psychic Focus rule.

*sigh* Ok, here we go...

Tell me, what is the difference in meaning between the following 2 statements?

1. All your powers must be generated from the same discipline.
2. All the powers you generate must be from the same discipline.

If you can't identify the difference in meaning between the above 2 statements then there's really nothing more to discuss at this time - come back when you've figured it out. Thanks.

That question is irrelevant.

To the contrary. Once you answer that question it should be clear why everything else you wrote is irrelevant.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)."

"Note that this means if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline’s primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

The above 2 quotes do not mean what you think they mean. You seem to be having difficulty parsing this particular syntax. So once again, what is the difference in meaning between the following 2 statements?

1. All your powers must be generated from the same discipline.
2. All the powers you generate must be from the same discipline.

Different words have different meanings.

In context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, the issue I have, is if you only consider the powers you roll for, when determining if you have Psychic Focus, then the note about not including powers that are not from a discipline (such as Force) means absolutely nothing, as no Psyker ever rolls for the Force power.

they have pointless reminders all over the book...

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, the issue I have, is if you only consider the powers you roll for, when determining if you have Psychic Focus, then the note about not including powers that are not from a discipline (such as Force) means absolutely nothing, as no Psyker ever rolls for the Force power.

they have pointless reminders all over the book...

It's not just that reminder though. Broodlords don't roll powers. The Tyranid FAQ amends Dominion (the Primaris) in such a way that only applies to Broodlords, again, who do not roll for their power.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.

 Happyjew wrote:
DR, the issue I have, is if you only consider the powers you roll for, when determining if you have Psychic Focus, then the note about not including powers that are not from a discipline (such as Force) means absolutely nothing, as no Psyker ever rolls for the Force power.

they have pointless reminders all over the book...

It's not just that reminder though. Broodlords don't roll powers. The Tyranid FAQ amends Dominion (the Primaris) in such a way that only applies to Broodlords, again, who do not roll for their power.

Broodlords have their power given by the Nid book right?

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.

What "context"? The rule in question is the first sentence in its own side box entitled "Psychic Focus". This side box appears in the section entitled "Mastery Levels".

You cannot just spout the word "context" as an excuse to ignore clearly written English. Well, I guess you could, but you'd be wrong.

So please, tell me why you think the following 2 statements don't in fact mean 2 different things?

1. All your powers must be generated from the same discipline.
2. All the powers you generate must be from the same discipline.

Here's a hint: if "all your powers" and "all the powers you generate" were always the same thing then by context the 2 statements would mean the same thing. But they aren't so they don't.

I agree, Abadabadoobaddon.

Of course, that interpretation leaves yourself open to things like...
If a psyker automatically knows one spell and generates the remainder of their spells from the same discipline, then he doesn't get Psychic Focus: as while all his spells are from the same discipline, he hasn't GENERATED them all.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
In context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.

What "context"? The rule in question is the first sentence in its own side box entitled "Psychic Focus". This side box appears in the section entitled "Mastery Levels".

You cannot just spout the word "context" as an excuse to ignore clearly written English. Well, I guess you could, but you'd be wrong.

So please, tell me why you think the following 2 statements don't in fact mean 2 different things?

1. All your powers must be generated from the same discipline.
2. All the powers you generate must be from the same discipline.

Here's a hint: if "all your powers" and "all the powers you generate" were always the same thing then by context the 2 statements would mean the same thing. But they aren't so they don't.

The context of them talking about powers you generate.

Do not ignore that.

page 23, top right, in bold...

"If a psyker has chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain psychic focus" (This is how you gain psychic focus, by choosing all of his powers from the same discipline).

Does a Psyker with a mark ever choose the primaris of his god's discipline? No? then the psyker has indeed "chosen all his powers from the same psychic discipline" ergo he gains Psychic Focus.

Has he chosen ALL his powers from the same discipline?

Flickering fire is a power, it should be included in "ALL"

Both of the quotes specify ALL. You have just changed from reading it as "all generated" to "all chosen". Neither rule states this