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Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





We attended the War at Life's End event at GW HQ this weekend, and I penned a few thoughts. As always, more piccies here: https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/age-of-sigmar-event-report-war-at-lifes-end/

This weekend we rocked up to GW’s HQ in Nottingham, for the first Age of Sigmar Doubles Event, The War at Life’s End. And a rain-swept scene greeted us upon arrival…



I had teamed up with the freakishly tall James, his Sylvaneth and my Stormcasts making for a nice fluffy force that would fit in well with the story behind the event – an assault on the Realm of Life by the Nurgle Lord Lugubrious Blisterphlegm. Would the sacred glades be corrupted, or would the Nurgle Lord face Sigmar’s wrath? We would decide that over the weekend!

The event was noticeably better organised than the last, and we had faction briefings at the start of every round. The first game would see the forces of Chaos massing for attack and the armies of Life would have to try to stop them getting past – this would use the Breakthrough Battleplan from the main hardback but with the roles reversed, Chaos being the forces that had to break through the line and get off their opponent’s table edge.

The faction leader did stress that as every team likely had around 100 models (James and I had 80-something) and only two and a half hours to play, we should chat with our opponents and sort out what models would be used. This was, I think, promptly ignored by everyone and every army deployed pretty much everything it had – when most games only got through 2 or 3 turns in this round, we all modified our thinking and armies were reduced later on…

Anyway, for our first game, we met two delightful chaps whose names were easy to remember – they were Matt and James! They had a combined Chaos force that featured loads of Chaos Warriors and Knights, the Glottkin, a Maggoth Lord, a whopping great dragon and a Chaos War Mammoth!

There were no ‘tricks’ on their side, so this would be a stand up fight and the two forces soon crashed together. On the right flank, I managed to convince James to feed his Treekin to the Chaos Dragon where they formed a nbice shield for my Protectors and their monster-killing glaives. A large number of 6’s on their wound rolls meant the dragon was butchered in short order and became the first large model to fall.

In the centre, Chaos Knights gave my Liberators a right pounding and, had the game gone on longer, might have seen off my little command squad as well (most Stormcast characters had clustered together). Things fared better on the left flank where James’ Dryads and Tree Lords mixed it up with Plaguebearers, the Maggoth Lord and, towards the end, the Glottkin.

A great deal of carnage ensued but, in the end the line held and we had our first victory! We even managed to stall the War Mammoth, though that was a dubious proposition at best…

After lunch, we had another briefing and were told the forces of Life had done well across the board, and that a new Battleplan would appear next, The Hidden Threat. This battle would be decided on how many wounds were caused by both sides – not models slain, as is often the case in Age of Sigmar, but wounds. So, it might be worth going after the big stuff.

We were to face a combined Nurgle and Khorne force, and agreed to limit our forces to 30 models per player (so, about 60 per side). I dropped my Skyborne Slayers formation but, having spied a few big nasties on the other team, kept the Celestant-Prime to one side. You know, just in case.

This battle was interesting to say the least! James and I raced to kill the Great Unclean One, but while we managed it, it diverted a lot of resources and allowed the Plague Drones and Toads to pound our other forces while a valuable Lord-Celestant and Tree Lord were showboating with the greater daemon. Aside from some Dryads, the left flank was more or less mine to hold and, initially, things went well, with Bloodletters being hammered quickly and Chaos Warriors getting whittled down.

The man of the match for me here (and possibly the man of the event) was the humble Heraldor. Looking over his stats, he does not seen all that – sure, he can cause terrain to quake and dish out D3 mortal wounds to anyone within D6 inches of the scenery… but D3 wounds is not a great deal. Maybe a couple of wounds off a Hero or the odd Bloodletter getting crushed.

However… when you can keep blowing it, those 5 wound Heroes start looking quite fragile and even the Khornate War Altar was beginning to feel its effects. Plus, because the Battleplan was based on wounds and there were several Khorne units close to the woods the Heraldor was affecting, we were starting to seriously rack up the points. The Khorne player soon decided he had had enough, and that the Heraldor had to die! This was a reaction that would be repeated throughout the weekend.

The moral of the story: if you are a Stormcast player, get yourself a Heraldor. You will not regret it.

The other issue we had was Epidemus, sitting in a temple at the far end of the table. We ignored him to begin with but soon realised that the tally of deaths he was keeping was buffing a lot of Nurgle forces. Enter the Celestant-Prime!

image007

Unfortunately, the Celestant-Prime had not brought his A game and, in four rounds of combat, had managed to only reduce Epidemus to his final wound when, really, he should have completely trashed the Chaos Lord in a single round. In his last attack of the game, he managed to miss with every swing of his hammer…

The final result was close but, in the end, we managed to win by about nine wounds. I think we can put that down to the Heraldor!

So, we were fairly jubilant, but as we had our last faction briefing of the day, we discovered that all had not gone so well for the forces of Life. In fact many other armies had been crushed and Chaos had won that round. With the campaign hanging in the balance, we were told the last round of the day would have no Battleplan and would use the 4 page rules sheet as written…

Up to this point, every team we had met had absolutely great players, the kind of guys you would be happy to play at any time. In fact we had not even heard of any ‘dick’ players attending. In the final round, I thought we had finally found them – as it turned out though, I was wrong.

We were facing a combined Chaos and Undead force, and the chaps we faced said they had played some slow games and would we mind limiting out forces to 20-odd models each? No problem at all, we said, though I had noticed Skarbrand sitting in their pile and figured he would show up. When models started going down onto the table, one of the other players promptly walked over to a display cabinet that had been set aside to showcase well-painted models, took out his Nagash and plonked him on the table.

Nagash and Skarbrand both on the table in a small 20 model game? I had a feeling we were being played here. This was reinforced when the summoning began, and I started to think what was the point of limiting the number of models if you were just going to double the size of your force in the first turn? This could be construed as a dick move, intentionally making sure your opponent sets up a weak force and then hitting him with everything you have got.

As it turned out, these guys were new at Age of Sigmar – for one of them, this was only their fourth game, the first being played in the small hours of that morning!

Once I realised that they were not trying to pull one over us, I started getting into the game.

Once the summoning began, James and I pulled our forces backwards, trying to buy ourselves as much time as possible. With the amount of summoning going on, the Chaos/Undead team would have to wipe us out to get a victory as summoned models count as calculates at the end of a battle, and they had brought in so many zombies on a single summoning that we were way ahead on kills. And we had no intention of being wiped out.

James did his teleporting Tree Lord trick to bounce models to the other side of the table, while the Undead tried to stop the Celestant-Prime from coming down by setting up a conga-line of zombies. They did not quite block off all areas of the table but right in the last minutes, Nagash charged the Celestant-Prime who was utterly unable to stop any of the wounds coming in and fell.

I think the Celestant-Prime is related to my Lord-Relictor, another model that never performs well. The Heraldor should be promoted to run the entire Stormhost…

At the end of the battle, we had just killed enough models to claim victory but, factoring in the summoning as well, it was not even close. Another victory for Life!

After that, we hung around a bit waiting for other teams to finish their games and then it was off to the restaurant for dinner, then the hotel for bed.

Come Sunday morning (after a really big breakfast), we had our first faction briefing of the day – and it turned out that the other teams had let us down. We had drawn with Chaos in the last round! The whole campaign teetered on a knife edge and the next battle would be telling. This one would be War of Storms, another Battleplan from the books, that saw the ‘line of battle’ being pushed one way or another to claim territory, with the death of an enemy general being a big boost.

So, kill the enemy general while protecting out own. Simples!

We faced a combined Tzeentch and Khorne force and, again, we agreed to limit our forces somewhat. The two forces started by lining up but we spotted the enemy general (a Lord of Change) had deployed just a little too far forward. Judicators and the Knight-Azyos (not to mention a Branchwraith on top of a summoned Balewind Vortex) punished the daemon for that, and he retreated quickly to his back line, with just a single wound left.

On the right flank and in the centre, Tzeentch daemons marched forward to engage the Sylvaneth while I had to cope with a bunch of Skullcrushers which, using their battalion rules, were dishing out 3 automatic mortal wounds every time they charged. Ouch.

I managed to whittle them down and bring and end to the lord leading them, but the Stormcasts had paid the price for that. Our general (Lord-Celestant) had been fairly battered by the attack and a sneaky Tzeentch Herald finished him off with an Arcane Bolt.

We might have lost right there but the Celestant-Prime had appeared on their back line, dropped a meteor on the head of the Lord of Change (killing him and bringing us back into contention), and then failing to kill a daemon prince – when he was rolling 8 dice for attacks, I ask you!

At the end of the battle, however, the line of territory being claimed was just a little too far into our half, so we had to acknowledge our first loss. Still a brilliant game though.

At this point, some judging was going on for the best painted armies, and I took a few snaps of them…

So, it was on to the last battle of the event! At our faction briefing, we were informed that we had done sufficiently well to ensure that the forces of Chaos could not win – but would we be able to ensnare the Chaos Lord who started this all before he escaped?

The next battle used the Ritual Battleplan, a notoriously hard one for the attackers – and we would be the attackers!

We chatted to the guys we faced (fielding a combined Khorne and Wood Aelf force – no, don’t ask me!), and quickly agreed to use pretty much everything but if they left Skarbrand behgind, we would not bring on the Celestant-Prime. Easy.

I was using my Skyborne Slayers Battalion, which could drop very close to the enemy and start attacking the objective, while James had placed a bunch of trees close to it as well, ready for a Tree Lord to come striding out of them. Our opponents were very wise to this, and set up in tight formations that would block any surprise attacks. It looked like we would have to do this the hard way…

Once again, the Heraldor parped his horn and promptly marked himself for death, while the Knight-Venator quickly assassinated a Slaughterpriest (the only time in the entire event where his special Skyfate arrow actually worked!). The Knight-Azyros led a group of Liberators in an attack on the Wood Aelf archer line, in an effort to create enough room for the rest of the Stormcasts to come down, while the Sylvaneth and some Stormcast heroes tried to do the same on the right flank. On the left, I just kinda milled about and did not really get stuck in!

This game ended in a titanic fight around the ritual objective. The Aelf archers held on to the last but were nearly annihilated in the process, while the Knight-Azyros endured sustained attacks from a Tree Lord and a War Altar. Treekin were sent to reinforce him but were matched by a group of Wrathmongers. Whatever was tried, neither side could break the deadlock anywhere along the line.

The battle ended in a draw – Chaos could not complete the ritual in time, and we could not bring down the Skyborne Slayers in any area of the table that would do the least bit of good.

The chaps we were playing were brilliant, and it was the perfect game to end the weekend on.

During the awards ceremony, we learned that the Forces of Life had clinched a victory (just!) but that Lord Blisterphlegm had managed to escape.

Really enjoyed this event, more so than the last one, and am looking forward to the next, likely early in the New Year!


40k and Age of Sigmar Blog - A Tabletop Gamer's Diary: https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/

Mongoose Publishing: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/ 
   
Made in ie
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

Nice report! It looks a lot busier than the last one; any idea of attendance numbers?
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran





Judging by the photos it seems to me that more people showed than last time. I'm interested in the fact that in the third game you counted the summoned units as casualties. Was this cleared by the organizers or did you talk it out with your opponents when Nagash was deployed?
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Now that's the kind of events I like for AoS! Narrative games with factions plotting against each other. Thanks for the report, Matt.

I don't know if it's just me, but I can only see the first picture. The other doesn't show.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Great event report. It looks really fun!

Makes me want to go to an event once my painted army is a little larger.

 CoreCommander wrote:
Judging by the photos it seems to me that more people showed than last time. I'm interested in the fact that in the third game you counted the summoned units as casualties. Was this cleared by the organizers or did you talk it out with your opponents when Nagash was deployed?


Yes, I'd be interested to find this out too.

Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

It sounds like a good event.

Did the players have to appoint a supreme commander to deploy forces strategically, or where all the battles essentially individual (doubles) picked at random?

I expect GW made the determinations of how much the results affected the world story overall. Otherwise there is a danger of one side winning too much and tipping the balance.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 Sarouan wrote:
Now that's the kind of events I like for AoS! Narrative games with factions plotting against each other. Thanks for the report, Matt.

I don't know if it's just me, but I can only see the first picture. The other doesn't show.
I think OP just didn't want to spam the pics on Dakka and/or drum up a little extra traffic to his own blog by posting the rest there.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





 CoreCommander wrote:
Was this cleared by the organizers or did you talk it out with your opponents when Nagash was deployed?


Actually did not come up, as we killed enough to claim victory without the summoned models. But it is right there in the rules sheet...

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Did the players have to appoint a supreme commander to deploy forces strategically, or where all the battles essentially individual (doubles) picked at random?


Mostly random.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I think OP just didn't want to spam the pics on Dakka and/or drum up a little extra traffic to his own blog by posting the rest there.


The former. Always a bit surprised anyone reads the latter...

40k and Age of Sigmar Blog - A Tabletop Gamer's Diary: https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/

Mongoose Publishing: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/ 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oh, I did read the blog. Pictures are really good and inspiring. It's just that I thought there was an image007 not showing on Dakka, that's all.
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran





MongooseMatt wrote:
 CoreCommander wrote:
Was this cleared by the organizers or did you talk it out with your opponents when Nagash was deployed?


Actually did not come up, as we killed enough to claim victory without the summoned models. But it is right there in the rules sheet...


Well, this has been a cause for debate in at least one thread. I wouldn't say it is unambiguously defined. Someone said that in the german version the text says something like "if they die, they are counted towards the casualties". It is definitely something that varies from player to player and that's why I was interested to find out how did you decide to use that interpretation.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Good stuff I'd like to see more of that going on here, but its a difficult sell (narrative events).
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





 CoreCommander wrote:

Well, this has been a cause for debate in at least one thread. I wouldn't say it is unambiguously defined. Someone said that in the german version the text says something like "if they die, they are counted towards the casualties". It is definitely something that varies from player to player and that's why I was interested to find out how did you decide to use that interpretation.


To quote from the (English language) rules sheet;

Models added to your army during the game (summoning quoted as example) do not count towards (text not relevant), but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers,

Umm, not seeing much leeway there...

40k and Age of Sigmar Blog - A Tabletop Gamer's Diary: https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/

Mongoose Publishing: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/ 
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran





MongooseMatt wrote:


To quote from the (English language) rules sheet;

Models added to your army during the game (summoning quoted as example) do not count towards (text not relevant), but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers,

Umm, not seeing much leeway there...


Hmm, you must have missed the threads where this was discussed. No matter - if it works for you it's fine. I have no intention of debating over this - I was just curious and got my answer
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Great read. Thanks for taking the time for the write up.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The term 'casualty' is not defined in the rules. Thus we have to make a number of assumptions about what the rules are meant to mean.

The most reasonable conclusion is this; If your army contains 20 figures at the start turn one, and you add 10 summoned troops, then your army counts as having had 50% of its models removed from play, for the purpose of determining minor victory conditions, even though actually you might not lose a single model during the course of the game.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in bg
Dakka Veteran





I'm aware of the indirect conclusions that have been iterated through the forums and we know that the hard fact is that there is not an unambiguous answer. I was just wondering if someone from GW HQ magically descended from Azyr to shed some "official" light on the matter for the purpose of the game day at least - something that all of the present players should adhere to in order to make a more cohesive campaign.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 CoreCommander wrote:
I'm aware of the indirect conclusions that have been iterated through the forums and we know that the hard fact is that there is not an unambiguous answer. I was just wondering if someone from GW HQ magically descended from Azyr to shed some "official" light on the matter for the purpose of the game day at least - something that all of the present players should adhere to in order to make a more cohesive campaign.


Now why would they do that?

That might give the impression that they were in the business of selling rules.

Thanks for the writeup, Matt, glad you had fun! Everyone's models look quite nice. I think it's interesting that we're not seeing many 'legacy armies' there. Lots of Khorne and Nurgle...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kilkrazy wrote:
The term 'casualty' is not defined in the rules. Thus we have to make a number of assumptions about what the rules are meant to mean.

The most reasonable conclusion is this; If your army contains 20 figures at the start turn one, and you add 10 summoned troops, then your army counts as having had 50% of its models removed from play, for the purpose of determining minor victory conditions, even though actually you might not lose a single model during the course of the game.
The word casualty means "person who was killed or injured in a war", so you don't need to define it in the rules. Summoned models, which are not killed or injured in a war, would not be a casualty and thus not counted among them. Taking it any other way would be overly pedantic.

Common sense says, count the casualties and compare it to the number of models in your original army, expressed as a percent. Summoned models do not increase the size of your army, but their casualties are included in the previous calculation. 20 models + 10 summoned models is an army of 20. If you lose 10 models, you have suffered 10 casualties (regardless of the origin of the model), and thus your minor victory score is 10/20 or 50%. Do not count models that aren't casualties as casualties.
   
Made in pt
Skillful Swordmaster




The Shadowlands of Nagarythe

Not having an actual definition in the rules for what a casualty is = Creating a gray area in the rules = Allowing it to be exploited. Especially in an event.

If you wanna be EXTREMELY pedantic: A Daemon isn't a person. Ergo, Daemons will never be casualties.

See what we're going on about?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/09 16:51:49


"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws." http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/

 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 Sqorgar wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
The term 'casualty' is not defined in the rules. Thus we have to make a number of assumptions about what the rules are meant to mean.

The most reasonable conclusion is this; If your army contains 20 figures at the start turn one, and you add 10 summoned troops, then your army counts as having had 50% of its models removed from play, for the purpose of determining minor victory conditions, even though actually you might not lose a single model during the course of the game.
The word casualty means "person who was killed or injured in a war", so you don't need to define it in the rules. Summoned models, which are not killed or injured in a war, would not be a casualty and thus not counted among them. Taking it any other way would be overly pedantic.

Common sense says, count the casualties and compare it to the number of models in your original army, expressed as a percent. Summoned models do not increase the size of your army, but their casualties are included in the previous calculation. 20 models + 10 summoned models is an army of 20. If you lose 10 models, you have suffered 10 casualties (regardless of the origin of the model), and thus your minor victory score is 10/20 or 50%. Do not count models that aren't casualties as casualties.

Rules are supposed to be written with the assumption that the reader is a dumb , so that when a dumb reads the rules he has the same understanding as everyone else. Same reason the rules explain that a D6 is a 6 sided dice, and that rolling 2d6 means rolling 2 dice.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 jonolikespie wrote:

Rules are supposed to be written with the assumption that the reader is a dumb , so that when a dumb reads the rules he has the same understanding as everyone else. Same reason the rules explain that a D6 is a 6 sided dice, and that rolling 2d6 means rolling 2 dice.
The problem with dumb is that even if you had a clear definition in the rules, they'd still find some moronic way to interpret it. At the end of the day, we look at all rules and say, "is the designer trying to say this perfectly reasonable thing, or are they saying this absurd, illogical, reaching thing?" and we settle on the reasonable thing. Where we need FAQs is when both choices are equally reasonable or equally absurd, but that's not the case here.
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

In the real world, a battle casualty is someone who is killed, wounded, captured or missing.

In the game models can be wounded without being killed. Victory conditions revolve around 'slain' = killed models. We assume these are casualties.

Therefore it matters to the game if a wounded model is a casualty or not.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kilkrazy wrote:
In the real world, a battle casualty is someone who is killed, wounded, captured or missing.

In the game models can be wounded without being killed. Victory conditions revolve around 'slain' = killed models. We assume these are casualties.

Therefore it matters to the game if a wounded model is a casualty or not.
Yes, a casualty can mean injured, but it means injured and removed from battle. Lots of soldiers get scuffs and bruises in the field of battle, but only become a casualty when they are no longer fit for duty.

The mention of casualty comes immediately after talking about counting models removed from play and comparing it to the number of models in your army. It's pretty obvious what it means in context.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Will you be going to Throne of Skulls, Matt? :-)

Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
Made in gb
40kenthus




Manchester UK

By the 'logic' in this thread, you can't actually kill (wound/slay) a PLASTIC toy soldier, so no one can win at all because the rules don't specifically state what counts as living, dead, inanimate etc.

I'd say use common sense - after all the WHFB BRB says casualties - but spending all day every day arguing about a game you have no intention of playing would suggest I'd be wasting my time!

I keep coming back to read it, though, so what do I know?!


Member of the "Awesome Wargaming Dudes"

 
   
Made in gb
Tough Treekin




Wait, so you played a model-count limited game, facing Skarbrand and Nagash, no specific scenario - and didn't lose?

Dere gon' be some comprehension headaches up in h'ya...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Great write up!

And its very nice to see that the old "summoned models are counted as casualties" argument is actually settled.

Always thought that it was played the way you guys did because ,well...that's what the rules say! as in there is no "when they die" statement at the end of it.

   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos





On the perfumed wind

Bummer about all this rules debate in here.

Loved the report, looked great, and was really taken with how well it seemed you were able to discuss a fair rules set up without needing a comp system.

Go, go Heraldor!

“It was in lands of the Chi-An where she finally ran him to ground. There she kissed him deeply as he lay dying, and so stole from him his last, agonized breath.

On a delicate chain at her throat, she keeps it with her to this day.”
 
   
Made in au
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 Sqorgar wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:

Rules are supposed to be written with the assumption that the reader is a dumb , so that when a dumb reads the rules he has the same understanding as everyone else. Same reason the rules explain that a D6 is a 6 sided dice, and that rolling 2d6 means rolling 2 dice.
The problem with dumb is that even if you had a clear definition in the rules, they'd still find some moronic way to interpret it. At the end of the day, we look at all rules and say, "is the designer trying to say this perfectly reasonable thing, or are they saying this absurd, illogical, reaching thing?" and we settle on the reasonable thing. Where we need FAQs is when both choices are equally reasonable or equally absurd, but that's not the case here.

What you are talking about is Rules as Written vs Rules and Interpreted.
A good ruleset should not allow people to interpret the rules any other way than how they were written, by removing any and all grey areas. They should be written in such a way that if someone tries to argue a different meaning you can tell them to reread the sentence and that settles it without room for any further debate.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 jonolikespie wrote:

What you are talking about is Rules as Written vs Rules and Interpreted.
A good ruleset should not allow people to interpret the rules any other way than how they were written, by removing any and all grey areas. They should be written in such a way that if someone tries to argue a different meaning you can tell them to reread the sentence and that settles it without room for any further debate.
In college, one of my best friends was TFG. We had to stop playing boardgames, even simplistic filler stuff like Zombies!!!!, due to his ability to take any rule and ruin the game with it. There is no such thing as an air tight ruleset - this has been proven to me many, many times - at least not one without lengthy, explicit, line by line instructions and a 45 page FAQ covering every possible situation that could conceivably come up, real or imagined. Warmachine, for example, has enough holes you could drive an aircraft carrier through, and that's with a 75 page instruction booklet, pages of errata, and hundreds of threads asking for clarification on every rule in the book. And there's still rules disputes, some of which can get nasty. And you know what really sucks to read for the first time when you are about to begin playing? The Warmachine rulebook. I'll take 4 pages of rules with the "spirit of the law" over a phonebook-sized rulebook and the "letter of the law" any day.
   
 
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