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Are people allowed to field parts of the platoons as a separate unit? For example can I buy a unit of conscripts without buying an entire platoon?

No, The Platoon is the troop choice option, not the units that comprise it

How come you need a separate infantry squad for the Armoured Shield Formation? Is that just an exception?

 elzadar wrote:
How come you need a separate infantry squad for the Armoured Shield Formation? Is that just an exception?

Formations are special and have their own rule for how to take units

 CrownAxe wrote:
No, The Platoon is the troop choice option, not the units that comprise it

And where exactly does it establish this? Nothing in the Squad entries actually state they can only be taken in an Infantry Platoon, just that they may be taken in a Platoon. There is nothing outside of their individual entries that states that they are restricted to Infantry Platoons only. They are all their own unit entries.

There is only one thing that provides a link, and there are two problems with it, and that is that all the Squad entries for the Infantry Platoon are surrounded by a field. BUT the book does not tell us what that field represents, nor does that field exist in the epub version of the codex.

All that having been said, aside from being very cheap with your Troop slots, it is a really bad idea and poor army building. Those Squads really suck in the room most Role Detachments provide.

And no, Formations are not that special for taking units in the current officially released ruleset. That does change if the Draft FAQ goes live as is, though.

From page 94 of Codex Astra Militarum it specifically says that the and Infantry Platoon, being one troop choice, consists of 1 platoon command squad, 2-5 Infantry squads, 0-5 heavy weapons squads, 0-3 special weapons squads an 0-1 conscripts squad.
Further, on page 95 the conscripts description states that each infantry Platoon may have one squad of conscripts.
So, you have to meet the minimum of 1 platoon command squad, and 2 infantry squads in order to have 1 conscripts squad.

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
From page 94 of Codex Astra Militarum it specifically says that the and Infantry Platoon, being one troop choice, consists of 1 platoon command squad, 2-5 Infantry squads, 0-5 heavy weapons squads, 0-3 special weapons squads an 0-1 conscripts squad.
Further, on page 95 the conscripts description states that each infantry Platoon may have one squad of conscripts.
So, you have to meet the minimum of 1 platoon command squad, and 2 infantry squads in order to have 1 conscripts squad.

IF taken as part of a Platoon Squad.

Possessing its own unit entry allows it to be taken as its own unit. Its own rules state that it "may" be taken as part of a Platoon. The Platoon states for its makeup that it has these unit requirements and options. If you want to have an Infantry Squad and Conscripts Squad in a single Troops Choice you must take an Infantry Platoon.

Nothing in this book requires the Infantry Platoon to be taken to take any of those squads individually as a Choice. The terms "can" and "may" are permissive as opposed to terms like "must".

The only place a conscript squad is listed is as an addition to the infantry Platoon. It is not a seperate selection or a stand alone unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further, on page 36, conscripts are listed under the Infantry Platoon entry, indicating that they are part of the infantry platoon. As such the requirement for infantry Platoon on page 94 clearly apply.

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
The only place a conscript squad is listed is as an addition to the infantry Platoon. It is not a seperate selection or a stand alone unit.

Not true. It has a unit entry that is set up almost exactly as the same as the Veteran Squad. The only actual differences are that the Conscript Squad entry has an extra line stating it may be part of of the Infantry Platoon and the paper version has it in the same field as the other Squads that make up the Infantry Platoon. Unfortunately, there is no legend which tells us that field places those Squads under the exclusivity of the Infantry Platoon and the field doesn't exist on the epub version of the codex, and permission to be included in something is not a requirement to do something.

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
Further, on page 36, conscripts are listed under the Infantry Platoon entry, indicating that they are part of the infantry platoon. As such the requirement for infantry Platoon on page 94 clearly apply.

The same generation of codices have the Codex Marines as having Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Marines all in the same entry of the "bestiary". This happens in many other areas, too, such as Bikes (Bikes and Attack Bikes), Scouts (Scouts and Scout Bikers), Terminators (Terminator and Assault Terminators), and Dedicated Transports. Are they also under the same entry so I can run Devastator Squads as part of the same Troops Choice as the Tacticals? No.

And from the epub version of the "field", for clarity:

Even if you argue that you could take Conscripts outside an Infantry Platoon, I think you could only do it in an Unbound Army as the Conscripts lack the heading of "TROOPS" at the top of their page.

Cal Hoskins wrote:
Even if you argue that you could take Conscripts outside an Infantry Platoon, I think you could only do it in an Unbound Army as the Conscripts lack the heading of "TROOPS" at the top of their page.

Why? Did something indicate that the Role changed between one Squad and another, or that there is no Role for the unit entry in question?

Look through the Legend. Role is not a part of specific 6th Edition (or earlier) unit entries like they are for 7th Edition datasheets.

Ok, I am using the hard cover codex. It clearly groups the PCS, infantry squad, HWS, SWS and conscript together. The last three IG/AM codices do exactly the same.

Even still you have the heading of 'Troops', subheadings 'Infantry Platoon', it then states that an 'Infantry Platoon consists of 1PCS, 2-5 'Infantry Squads', 0-5 HWS, 0-3 SWS and 1 Conscript Squad. Each Infantry Platoon. Counts as a single Troops slot on the FOC. It then gives the stats and upgrades for the different squads that are contain within the Troop choice, called 'Infantry Platoon'.

Even under Platoon Command Squad it states the Infantry Platoon MUST have one, and the Infantry Squad states the Infantry Platoon must have 2.

Going back to the description of the units the choices you have 'Infantry Platoon, then a bit of fluff, then a list of the squads that comprise an 'Infantry Platoon'.

Infantry Platoon is the Troop choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I can see how you can come to that conclusion. The epub and mobile formats are crap, whi check is why I will never pay for the electronic version unless I absolutely have to, like the Cadian supplement.

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
Ok, I am using the hard cover codex. It clearly groups the PCS, infantry squad, HWS, SWS and conscript together. The last three IG/AM codices do exactly the same.

Even still you have the heading of 'Troops', subheadings 'Infantry Platoon', it then states that an 'Infantry Platoon consists of 1PCS, 2-5 'Infantry Squads', 0-5 HWS, 0-3 SWS and 1 Conscript Squad. Each Infantry Platoon. Counts as a single Troops slot on the FOC. It then gives the stats and upgrades for the different squads that are contain within the Troop choice, called 'Infantry Platoon'.

Even under Platoon Command Squad it states the Infantry Platoon MUST have one, and the Infantry Squad states the Infantry Platoon must have 2.

Going back to the description of the units the choices you have 'Infantry Platoon, then a bit of fluff, then a list of the squads that comprise an 'Infantry Platoon'.

Infantry Platoon is the Troop choice.

How do you know it is exclusively grouped together that way? How do you know that these Squads are exclusive to the Infantry Platoon selection and cannot be taken as selections on their own? That field that surrounds them? What tells you what that field means?

Just because the Infantry Platoon requires them only makes them required if you take the Infantry Platoon as the Troops Choice. That requirement doesn't make it so they can only be taken in such a format. Each Squad is a unit on its own (the rules for the Platoon specifically state this), even when taken as part of a Platoon. Each Squad has its own unit entry which can be selected just like the Veterans Squad.

To put it in to context, the Space Marine Demi-Company requires 3 Tactical Marine Squads. Does that mean I can only take Tactical Marine Squads in a Demi-Company? Nope. Only when I am taking the Space Marine Demi-Company or the appropriate Strike Force. Permissions and requirements are set from above, but nothing provides explicit exclusivity.

But again, outside some very weird situations and scenarios, it is a poor choice to take these Squads in this way, except maybe for the Conscript Squad (which used to be separate from the Platoon way back when), as 20-50 models is nothing to sneeze at, even at their crap statistics.

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
Btw, I can see how you can come to that conclusion. The epub and mobile formats are crap, whi check is why I will never pay for the electronic version unless I absolutely have to, like the Cadian supplement.

They have their uses. But again, we need something more, even in the dead-tree version, to fit in to that exclusivity than what you are describing.

 elzadar wrote:
Are people allowed to field parts of the platoons as a separate unit? For example can I buy a unit of conscripts without buying an entire platoon?

elzadar, the answer IS that you can't take Conscripts without buying the entire platoon.

Technically Charistoph is correct. We have nothing by the RAW that states this to be the case. However, the intention is very clear, as the idea that you have to take entire platoons to get access to their components has been a staple of the army since at least as far back as 3rd edition.

I used to be a part of Wizards of the Coast's big forums for Magic before they got nuked by Hasbro. There was a wonderful sub-forum called Rules Q&A, where people would answer rules questions. Make no mistake, many of them went into lengthy debates, just like you see here! Sometimes these descended into "well, the intention is clear", but since Magic was a serious game, the actual Designers of the game would be notified when this occurred, and often the rules would be updated. On those forums, voices like Charistoph were invaluable at pointing out the "technically RAW" stance of things, like in this situation. Everyone would go "huh, that's weird. Okay, let's notify the devs, because it's obviously not supposed to be that way," and the developers would make a ruling on it, and the rules would be updated to reflect that ruling. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen here.

So, while Charistoph is technically correct that, by the RAW, there's no requirement to have an Infantry Platoon in order to gain access to Conscripts, the actual correct way to play is that, yes, you can only take them (as well as Infantry Squads, Platoon Command Squads, Heavy Weapons Teams, and Special Weapons Teams) in an Infantry Platoon, and not on their own.

 Charistoph wrote:

How do you know it is exclusively grouped together that way? How do you know that these Squads are exclusive to the Infantry Platoon selection and cannot be taken as selections on their own? That field that surrounds them? What tells you what that field means?

How do you know that these Squads are exclusive to the Infantry Platoon selection?

Because they are part of a two page spread that is strictly for the Infantry Platoon.

There is nothing saying, anywhere, that there is a way to take them outside of the Infantry Platoon.

The only way to do so as far as I have seen is from specific scenarios such as "Last Step Backwards", where you can field a Conscript Squad without an Infantry Platoon...

In fact? The exact wording of that scenario:

Echoes of War: Last Step Backwards wrote:
One player is the Cadian player, and his opponent is the Chaos Space Marine player.

The Cadian player's army consists of a Company Command Squad, a Leman Russ Battle Tank and any number of units of Conscripts (these do not need to be chosen as part of an Infantry Platoon).

Just because the Infantry Platoon requires them only makes them required if you take the Infantry Platoon as the Troops Choice. That requirement doesn't make it so they can only be taken in such a format. Each Squad is a unit on its own (the rules for the Platoon specifically state this), even when taken as part of a Platoon. Each Squad has its own unit entry which can be selected just like the Veterans Squad.

Not really. The digital version might have it set up differently, but that is certainly not the case for the physical.

It's not a separate entry like the Veterans, which were placed on another page. It's all one block.

To put it in to context, the Space Marine Demi-Company requires 3 Tactical Marine Squads. Does that mean I can only take Tactical Marine Squads in a Demi-Company? Nope. Only when I am taking the Space Marine Demi-Company or the appropriate Strike Force. Permissions and requirements are set from above, but nothing provides explicit exclusivity.

The Space Marine Demi-Company is a formation, not a unit entry. The Infantry Platoon(and the components within it) is a single Troops choice.

That's not really an appropriate comparison beyond just trying to throw a comparison out there.

Outside of the AM book(which is heavily outdated, at best), there were never really things like the Platoon structures.

But again, outside some very weird situations and scenarios, it is a poor choice to take these Squads in this way, except maybe for the Conscript Squad (which used to be separate from the Platoon way back when), as 20-50 models is nothing to sneeze at, even at their crap statistics.

That was the Doctrines book and the books before that. Since the first Cruddace book, it's been part of the Infantry Platoon.

There's even an explicit bit in the first Cruddace book with an asterisk next to the components within an Infantry Platoon that says the following:

Codex: Imperial Guard (2008 edition) wrote:
*Note that the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually--only as part of an Infantry Platoon

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
Btw, I can see how you can come to that conclusion. The epub and mobile formats are crap, whi check is why I will never pay for the electronic version unless I absolutely have to, like the Cadian supplement.

They have their uses. But again, we need something more, even in the dead-tree version, to fit in to that exclusivity than what you are describing.

No, they really don't.

There is no way, shape, or form to take a Conscript Squad outside of the Infantry Platoon. Just because the digital has it as a separate entry means nothing.

You will note from the attached that the various squads are within a collective box. The second shows how the box is used to separate units that are note together.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry about the crap resolution.

I've only loosely followed this thread and don't know anything about IG, so take what I'm about t say with a grain of salt.

I believe what charistoph and some others are saying is that while the platoon is all nice and well. The rules on how to use the army list provide no basis to indicate that the units making up a platoon can only be taken in a platoon.
They are in a box, yes, but that's only a decorative element as far as the actual rules are concerned. All the various entries are individual army list entries. Unless that is specifically covered in the part about how to use the entries in that codex.

The platoon is a kind of pseudo formation, but the surrounding box has no impact on the army entries contained within.

 Roknar wrote:
I've only loosely followed this thread and don't know anything about IG, so take what I'm about t say with a grain of salt.

I believe what charistoph and some others are saying is that while the platoon is all nice and well. The rules on how to use the army list provide no basis to indicate that the units making up a platoon can only be taken in a platoon.
They are in a box, yes, but that's only a decorative element as far as the actual rules are concerned. All the various entries are individual army list entries. Unless that is specifically covered in the part about how to use the entries in that codex.

It really isn't just decorate or anything.

Each of those optional unit entries says the following:

Each Infantry Platoon may include

And then it names off the Heavy Weapons Squad, Special Weapons Squad, or Conscripts. Heavy Weapons Squads and Special Weapon Squads have a notation of "may include up to" and numbers a specific total of squads while Conscripts only ever get to be one.

Platoon Command Squads and Infantry Squads state "must include".

The platoon is a kind of pseudo formation, but the surrounding box has no impact on the army entries contained within.

The Platoon is a single Troops choice. It states:

Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.

The box is not decorative l. Other areas of the list have the same box, and indicate that the entries are combined into a collective unit.

While the box may show the intent, and I believe it does so adequately, one must remember that this is a permissive rules set. According to the rules, we may take any unit with a unit entry, which these qualify as. The rules instruct us on how to take an Infantry Platoon, and that this has requirements that must be met, but never says that we can't take them outside of the Platoon.

Of course, this is all merely academic. It's clear that you should only take them within a platoon, but it's not actually spelt out that this is the only way. It's implied, which is all well and good, but it would be better if it explicitly stated it. Academically, Charistoph is correct, even if that's not the way it SHOULD be played.

The rules set is permissive, but nowhere does it state that you can take those without being part of an Infantry Platoon.

In fact, as I mentioned, the only time that I distinctly know of where it allows you to take a Conscript Squad without being part of an Infantry Platoon?

Is in a scenario that explicitly calls out you to bring Conscript Squads, with the caveat of those Conscript Squads being taken without being a part of an Infantry Platoon.

And realistically, it shouldn't need to say that. This isn't a question or RAW or RAI. There is no notations or mechanisms allowing you to take a Conscript Squad(or Heavy Weapons Squad or Infantry Squads or Special Weapon Squads) without an Infantry Platoon beyond going Unbound or playing that specific Scenario("Echoes of War: Last Step Backwards").

Kanluwen wrote:How do you know that these Squads are exclusive to the Infantry Platoon selection?

Because they are part of a two page spread that is strictly for the Infantry Platoon.

That is a determination based on insufficient facts and data. I asked how you know, and you state, "because". Where does it actually state, in text, "because they can only be taken this way"?

Kanluwen wrote:There is nothing saying, anywhere, that there is a way to take them outside of the Infantry Platoon.

Then you don't know how to read Unit Entries per the book's own legend.

Kanluwen wrote:

Just because the Infantry Platoon requires them only makes them required if you take the Infantry Platoon as the Troops Choice. That requirement doesn't make it so they can only be taken in such a format. Each Squad is a unit on its own (the rules for the Platoon specifically state this), even when taken as part of a Platoon. Each Squad has its own unit entry which can be selected just like the Veterans Squad.

Not really. The digital version might have it set up differently, but that is certainly not the case for the physical.

It's not a separate entry like the Veterans, which were placed on another page. It's

To put it in to context, the Space Marine Demi-Company requires 3 Tactical Marine Squads. Does that mean I can only take Tactical Marine Squads in a Demi-Company? Nope. Only when I am taking the Space Marine Demi-Company or the appropriate Strike Force. Permissions and requirements are set from above, but nothing provides explicit exclusivity.

The Space Marine Demi-Company is a formation, not a unit entry. The Infantry Platoon(and the components within it) is a single Troops choice.

The Infantry Platoon is not a unit entry, at least not by the standards provided by the codex. It does not state that it is a unit entry. It is a way to take multiple units as one Role Slot. Its organization statement even state this as such. Each of those Squads remain as their own separate units (baring a unification by Combined Squad) from Army List development to Deployment. Each of those Squads has its own Unit Entry on the list. Ergo, each Squad is selectable as a unit to fill that Role Slot.

But, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Kanluwen wrote:

But again, outside some very weird situations and scenarios, it is a poor choice to take these Squads in this way, except maybe for the Conscript Squad (which used to be separate from the Platoon way back when), as 20-50 models is nothing to sneeze at, even at their crap statistics.

That was the Doctrines book and previously. Since the first Cruddace book, it's been part of the Infantry Platoon.

There's an explicit bit in the first Cruddace book with an asterisk next to the components within an Infantry Platoon that says the following:

Codex: Imperial Guard (2008 edition) wrote:
*Note that the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually--only as part of an Infantry Platoon

Funny how that phrase is not included in the current codex.

You know what has also been missing from a current codex that was the standard in previous codices? How Tau Crisis Suits take their Wargear. In the first two iterations, if a Crisis Suit wanted to take two Flamers, they HAD to be 1 Twin-linked Flamer. It was specific language which limited the selection. Then their 6th Edition codex came along and that language no longer existed. Within a month, GW officially released an answer that it was intentional that a Crisis Suit could take two individual Flamers and not take them Twin-linked.

In short, previous codex standard is not always enforceable in to the current one without supporting language. Otherwise, Codex Marine Command Squads could still be taken "slotless" when taking a Space Marine Captain.

Kanluwen wrote:

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
Btw, I can see how you can come to that conclusion. The epub and mobile formats are crap, whi check is why I will never pay for the electronic version unless I absolutely have to, like the Cadian supplement.

They have their uses. But again, we need something more, even in the dead-tree version, to fit in to that exclusivity than what you are describing.

No, they really don't.

There is no way, shape, or form to take a Conscript Squad outside of the Infantry Platoon. Just because the digital has it as a separate entry means nothing.

The dead-tree version provides the Conscript Squad its own unit entry like the ePub version per the legend on unit entries and you say that means nothing, but a field which is never referenced in a legend means everything?

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:You will note from the attached that the various squads are within a collective box. The second shows how the box is used to separate units that are note together.

Yes, that is the one I have been speaking of.

Now, where does it tell us that this is indicates everything in the box can only be exclusively be taken in that organization called an Infantry Platoon? That has been the question on this since I first saw it, and no one has answered it with anything besides, "because".

Kanluwen wrote:It really isn't just decorate or anything.

Without any other text to provide context, it is nothing more than decoration. It is art. It can be whatever you want. But as for RAW, it means diddly.

Kanluwen wrote:Each of those optional unit entries says the following:

Each Infantry Platoon may include

And then it names off the Heavy Weapons Squad, Special Weapons Squad, or Conscripts. Heavy Weapons Squads and Special Weapon Squads have a notation of "may include up to" and numbers a specific total of squads while Conscripts only ever get to be one.

Platoon Command Squads and Infantry Squads state "must include".

The platoon is a kind of pseudo formation, but the surrounding box has no impact on the army entries contained within.

The Platoon is a single Troops choice. It states:

Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.

Sounds like someone needs to be reminded as to the difference between "may" and "must" and the perspective being applied. When fielding an Infantry Platoon, you "must" include some things. Nothing in that statement indicates exclusivity on the Squads' ends. What if you don't want to take an Infantry Platoon?

Where does it state in any of those unit entries that they "must" be taken in an Infantry Platoon? I will also take "may only be taken in an Infantry Platoon" or "may not be taken outside of an Infantry Platoon", or anything that is applied to the Squads themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The rules set is permissive, but nowhere does it state that you can take those without being part of an Infantry Platoon.

It has its own unit entry as defined in that codex's legend. Permission is granted at that point. What other permission do I need that isn't also present in the Veteran Squads entry?

 Kanluwen wrote:
The rules set is permissive, but nowhere does it state that you can take those without being part of an Infantry Platoon.

That's not what a permissive rules set means. What you are listing would be a restriction. Technically, we have permission because there's a unit entry. At this point, to be forced to only be able to take it in certain situations we would need something else to specifically tell us not to be able to take it, since we've already been told by the rules that we are allowed to take it. Granted, this restriction is implied in the bigger unit entry box that surrounds it and the other parts of the platoon. Just playing devil's advocate here.

This is definitely a question of RAW and RAI, but I think the RAI is so overwhelming here that it just serves to indicate, yet again, how the RAW is in need of fixing, though it's unlikely to be fixed. In completely honesty though, it's not the first time I've heard Guard players asking if they can do this! It's just that every single time people have answered "no", and the person asking the question accepts that answer. I believe that answer is correct by the RAI.

The individual units are army list entries in the troops section. That lets's you choose them as troops.

I mentioned this in another thread, but lack of permission is not the same as a restriction.
You are allowed to field the units because they are unit entries. You can also combine them in a platoon.

In order to prevent their selection on their own, you need an explicit restriction like the one you mentioned: "*Note that the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually--only as part of an Infantry Platoon". Without that, there is nothing stopping you from taking them individually as you already have permission to field them.

I agree with yarium that the intent here is pretty clear, but from a purely RAW perspective it is legal. That's all they are saying.
Nobody is disputing the part that they are required for a platoon. Any given formation requires particular units, but that doesn't stop you from fielding those units on their own does it? Similar situation here.

 Roknar wrote:
The individual units are army list entries in the troops section. That lets's you choose them as troops.

No, they aren't actually army list entries in the Troops section. They are all contained within the umbrella of the Infantry Platoon

The Infantry Platoon then has the following notation:

INFANTRY PLATOON
Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads, 0-3 Special Weapons Squads, and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.

Each component listed?

Each Infantry Platoon must include one (and only one) Platoon Command Squad.

Each Infantry Platoon must include between two and five Infantry Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include up to five Heavy Weapons Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include up to three Special Weapons Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts.

I mentioned this in another thread, but lack of permission is not the same as a restriction.
You are allowed to field the units because they are unit entries. You can also combine them in a platoon.

Oh, so I can field Servitors by themselves?

Because the only way to take a Conscript Squad is part of an Infantry Platoon.

In order to prevent their selection on their own, you need an explicit restriction like the one you mentioned: "*Note that the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually--only as part of an Infantry Platoon". Without that, there is nothing stopping you from taking them individually as you already have permission to field them.

I agree with yarium that the intent here is pretty clear, but from a purely RAW perspective it is legal. That's all they are saying.

Until they produce anything stating that they can be taken without an Infantry Platoon, anything at all, like the example caveat from "Echoes of War: Last Step Backwards", they're reaching at straws beyond the mechanics of "Unbound" or specific Formations/scenarios.

Nobody is disputing the part that they are required for a platoon. Any given formation requires particular units, but that doesn't stop you from fielding those units on their own does it? Similar situation here.

Except a Platoon is not a formation. It is a single Troops choice, made up of multiple components.

Stop equating the two.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
The individual units are army list entries in the troops section. That lets's you choose them as troops.

No, they aren't actually army list entries in the Troops section. They are all contained within the umbrella of the Infantry Platoon

Yes, the are. They are set up the same as every other unit entry list in this book, and set up exactly the same as in the legend, except the part where it lists their part of the Infantry Platoon.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Infantry Platoon then has the following notation:

INFANTRY PLATOON
Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads, 0-3 Special Weapons Squads, and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.

Each component listed?

Each Infantry Platoon must include one (and only one) Platoon Command Squad.

Each Infantry Platoon must include between two and five Infantry Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include up to five Heavy Weapons Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include up to three Special Weapons Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts.

I mentioned this in another thread, but lack of permission is not the same as a restriction.
You are allowed to field the units because they are unit entries. You can also combine them in a platoon.

Oh, so I can field Servitors by themselves?

Because the only way to take a Conscript Squad is part of an Infantry Platoon.

Which ones? The current Codex Marines, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels, you cannot take Servitors without an IC because they are part of the Techmarine's or Grimaldus' unit entry and datasheet. In the previous Codex Marines, you technically could, but they were rather worthless. Taking them slotless with a Techmarine was listed as a "may", not a "may only".

The Infantry Platoon is NOT a unit entry. It is not represented as one. It is represented as something else, completely. Each individual Squad is purchased as a unit in its own right, even when part of the Platoon.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Until they produce anything stating that they can be taken without an Infantry Platoon, anything at all, like the example caveat from "Echoes of War: Last Step Backwards", they're reaching at straws beyond the mechanics of "Unbound" or specific Formations/scenarios.

Why is its own unit entry not sufficient? Because it can be part of something else? Because in order to take something else, it must be taken as part of it? Those are poor reasons and would not hold up in any court on its own. You are clinging on to a previous standard which is not written in the current book.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nobody is disputing the part that they are required for a platoon. Any given formation requires particular units, but that doesn't stop you from fielding those units on their own does it? Similar situation here.

Except a Platoon is not a formation. It is a single Troops choice, made up of multiple components.

Stop equating the two.

A Formation is a detachment made up of multiple components. That it is one Troops Choice is immaterial. It is not a unit of its own and takes in units to make it up. It is actually closer to being those Choices in a Strike Force which aren't Formations on their own. They aren't a detachment, but a collection of units which are part of a single Choice.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
The individual units are army list entries in the troops section. That lets's you choose them as troops.

No, they aren't actually army list entries in the Troops section. They are all contained within the umbrella of the Infantry Platoon

Yes, the are. They are set up the same as every other unit entry list in this book, and set up exactly the same as in the legend, except the part where it lists their part of the Infantry Platoon.

No, they really are not.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The Infantry Platoon then has the following notation:

INFANTRY PLATOON
Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads, 0-3 Special Weapons Squads, and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.

Each component listed?

Each Infantry Platoon must include one (and only one) Platoon Command Squad.

Each Infantry Platoon must include between two and five Infantry Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include up to five Heavy Weapons Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include up to three Special Weapons Squads.

Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts.

I mentioned this in another thread, but lack of permission is not the same as a restriction.
You are allowed to field the units because they are unit entries. You can also combine them in a platoon.

Oh, so I can field Servitors by themselves?


Because the only way to take a Conscript Squad is part of an Infantry Platoon.

Which ones? The current Codex Marines, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels, you cannot take Servitors because they are part of the Techmarine's or Grimaldus' unit entry and datasheet. In the previous Codex Marines, you technically could, but they were rather worthless. Taking them slotless with a Techmarine was listed as a "may", not a "may only".

Seeing as how we're talking about Codex: Astra Militarum, I figured the question would be obviously tied to here.

The answer is:
No, you cannot field Servitors by themselves.
Why?

Because Servitors are tied directly to the Techmarines, stating "one unit of Servitors for every Enginseer in your army".

But since your argument is hinged upon the nonsense of "If it has a unit entry, it's a valid choice to be taken by itself and forget the way it is listed"?

The Infantry Platoon is NOT a unit entry. It is not represented as one. It is represented as something else, completely. Each individual Squad is purchased as a unit in its own right, even when part of the Platoon.

The Infantry Platoon is a unit entry. It is represented as one, going off of the legend that you so helpfully chose to insult me about.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Until they produce anything stating that they can be taken without an Infantry Platoon, anything at all, like the example caveat from "Echoes of War: Last Step Backwards", they're reaching at straws beyond the mechanics of "Unbound" or specific Formations/scenarios.

Why is its own unit entry not sufficient? Because it can be part of something else? Because in order to take something else, it must be taken as part of it? Those are poor reasons and would not hold up in any court on its own. You are clinging on to a previous standard which is not written in the current book.

The previous book also did not state "may" or "must" for any of the Infantry Platoon components. Go and read both books and see for yourself.

The previous book needed that asterisk, as it did not state that the individual components "may" or "must" be taken as part of an Infantry Platoon. The current book does not need the asterisk with that notation, as it specifically states "may" or "must" as part of an Infantry Platoon.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Nobody is disputing the part that they are required for a platoon. Any given formation requires particular units, but that doesn't stop you from fielding those units on their own does it? Similar situation here.

Except a Platoon is not a formation. It is a single Troops choice, made up of multiple components.

Stop equating the two.

A Formation is a detachment made up of multiple components. That it is one Choice is immaterial. It is not a unit of its own and takes in units to make it up.

Show me where it states that an Infantry Platoon is a Formation.

Oh right. You can't because this book is pre-Formations.

Will it likely become one if/when Guard are redone? Probably.

Additionally, still waiting for you to respond to the specific example I gave about "Last Step Backwards".

The infantry platoon is not an army list entry.
I can only link the CSM page but look at the equivalent page in the IG codex.
An army entry has a unit name, profiles, cost, etc. Does it say anything there that the various platoon units aren't army list entries?

The platoon is construct that takes up one troop choice slot and consists of the listed units. Some of which are mandatory, some optional. Nobody said a platoon is a formation.
In order to field a platoon, certain units are mandatory. Nobody said otherwise, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how else you can field those unit. At all.

The comparison with a formation was that a formation also has mandatory choices, which has no impact whatsoever on your ability to field the same units on their own in CAD.
A platoon is a different beast, but in the same way a platoon must include a platoon command. However, that has no impact at all on taking a platoon command on it's own.
Nowhere in the codex (to my knowledge) does it limit the units to being taken in a platoon like it did in the previous iterations.

Look at the difference:
" An infantry platoon must include between two and five infantry squads."
Versus:
"You may only take infantry squads in an infantry platoon. Furthermore, an infantry platoon must include between two and five infantry squads."

The only thing to stop from taking an squad in the first case, is if they somehow don't count as unit entries on their own, but from what I can tell, there isn't anything in the rules that would support this.

 Kanluwen wrote:

No, they really are not.

Yes, they really are. If you think not, what in the legend of the codex for unit entries is sufficiently different to justify them as not their own unit entries? What in their unit entries states they are not units of their own?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Seeing as how we're talking about Codex: Astra Militarum, I figured the question would be obviously tied to here.

The answer is:
No, you cannot field Servitors by themselves.
Why?

Because Servitors are tied directly to the Techmarines, stating "one unit of Servitors for every Enginseer in your army".

I forgot that the Engineseers had Servitors. An honest enough mistake.

But sure, let's truncate the statement to make your point and lose the full context.

Each Astra Militarum detachment may include 0-3 Enginseers, and you may include one unit of Servitors for every Enginseer in your army. These selections do not take up a Force Organisation slot, and do not qualify as a mandatory HQ selection.

I see a few "may"'s in there, but no "musts" or "may only"'s. Even at best, if you consider the "These selections" line to be the only way to take it, this phrase is not included in the Infantry Platoon entry.

 Kanluwen wrote:
But since your argument is hinged upon the nonsense of "If it has a unit entry, it's a valid choice to be taken by itself and forget the way it is listed"?

The Infantry Platoon is NOT a unit entry. It is not represented as one. It is represented as something else, completely. Each individual Squad is purchased as a unit in its own right, even when part of the Platoon.

The Infantry Platoon is a unit entry. It is represented as one, going off of the legend that you so helpfully chose to insult me about.

What insult? I am asking for you to provide demonstrable evidence provided by the book itself in actual words. I am using the book's actual definitions to prove my case. You were ignoring them. If you view that as an insult, than you have more problems here than understanding what I'm saying.

And no, it is NOT a unit entry. A unit entry in the current codex starts with the unit name in the box right above the statistics, not an entry that lists other unit entries above that box. The portion which initially states what goes in an Infantry Platoon and allows it to be taken as one slot is not considered part of any unit entry. Taking up one Slot does not equal one unit any more than when a Veteran Squad takes a Chimera as a Dedicated Transport stay as one single unit.

When an Infantry Platoon is deployed, each Squad (with the possible exception of Combined Infantry Squads) are deployed as their own unit and continue to operate as their own unit for the duration of the game.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The previous book also did not state "may" or "must" for any of the Infantry Platoon components. Go and read both books and see for yourself.

The previous book needed that asterisk, as it did not state that the individual components "may" or "must" be taken as part of an Infantry Platoon. The current book does not need the asterisk with that notation, as it specifically states "may" or "must" as part of an Infantry Platoon.

Keep in mind, the same conditions still applied in the initial list of the Infantry Platoon. And what was stated in that Asterisk?

Note that the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually - only as part of an Infantry Platoon.

If they needed it then, they need it now, probably even more so. I'm asking where that equivalent to the asterisk is, and you say it isn't needed. Nothing in the Squads' unit entries provide the same context as that asterisk in the current book.

I should note, that I do expect their next codex with datasheets to handle them all together again as one single datasheet, but I guess I will be one of the few not in absolute stunned shock if they do not tie them in to one complete datasheet.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Show me where it states that an Infantry Platoon is a Formation.

Oh right. You can't because this book is pre-Formations.

Will it likely become one if/when Guard are redone? Probably.

Well, we didn't actually call them Formations, just that they were like Formations. We were referencing them as points that in order to take those entities, they must follow those examples, but just because they are required for those entities does not remove them from consideration for being taken on their own without explicit instructions to do so.

The Infantry Platoon is actually closer to being those Choices in a Strike Force which aren't Formations on their own. They aren't a detachment, but a collection of units which are part of a single Choice for the Detachment. And the Platoon is certainly organized like one of those Choices.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Additionally, still waiting for you to respond to the specific example I gave about "Last Step Backwards".

You haven't properly responded to my questions with anything but "because". Not a good way to start for a good conversation.

In addition, I do not have access to that scenario. I only have to go by your own word on it, and you have already truncated statements to ignore parts you don't like along with placing improper emphasis on statements that ignore the context they state. For example, your emphasis that in order for one thing to be taken it must take other things means those other things can only be taken that way.

In the unit description section of the hardcopy book the unit name is Infantry Platoon. It then lists the elements that make up an Infantry Platoon. The Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard is unique that a unit is comprised of a number of squads

This page is quite clear that the unit is called Infantry Platoon.