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how the heck does anyone get that im calling them a liar?

im simply pointing out (again) that all this hype flies (pun intended) in the face of anything GW has done previously

- the next necron wave has no doom scythe or flier model. its probally in the last wave, much like the DE venom/ razorwing.
- any kind of full flier expansion release will be 'spearhead' quality. no new, or very minimal model release if that. orc, nid, imperial, sm space craft all at once? yea.... right....'cause GW has totally done THAT before.

while i hope fliers get the conversion from apoc to normal system... i highly doubt it. the core rules and general style of the game has not changed much since 3rd when i started playing, cant recall about 2nd... but still thats about 18 years of keeping to the same. rule changes here and there of course, but the over all style remained the same. introduction of fliers into the standard rule set would drastically change everything, and be a complete 180 from what GW has done in the past. and in m expierence GW does not do 'change' well.

so yea.. ill believe it when i see it.

- any kind of full flier expansion release will be 'spearhead' quality. no new, or very minimal model release if that. orc, nid, imperial, sm space craft all at once? yea.... right....'cause GW has totally done THAT before.

Actually they have, though it was with Fantasy. 8th edition fantasy hit and was a huge overhaul to the system. Instead of a handful of army books, they only released one (Orcs) and released a supplement (Storm of Magic) which included large scale monster kits for multiple armies (Cockatrice, Chimera, Manticore, Black Dragon).

All the rumors currently trend towards 40k 6th edition being a similar in scale rules overhaul as Fantasy 8th, with likely only one codex release (Chaos). It isn't to too far of a leap to presume that 6th 40k will follow Fantasy's precedent with a supplement release and several large scale flier kits for multiple armies.

yes and no...

fantasy 8th was only a slight change up from 7th. it changed and balanced magic, (to compensate for magic heavy chaos daemons and lizardmen among others), changed charge to work on init rather then charger striking first, but otherwise remained pretty much the same with a few tweaks.

the storm of magic expansion falls in line with everything else done.

a few kits, (cockatrice, chymarae, black dragon) a set of templates and some terrain. compared to other expansions in the 40k in fits right in.

cityfight: a book, and a bunch of terrain pieces (cities of death)

planetstrike: terrain set (the blastscape - one with the various wrecked things a few craters, and the bastions along with a book and i believe a re release of a few existing models.

spearhead did not even get a book, just a WD reease and an online supplement, along with a fire prisim retouch, some upgrade packs for gaurd tanks and thats it.

so basically we have a few new models, an expansion book and maybe a set of templates and some terrain. 8th for fantasy followed the profile. and yea its changes were "drastic" but no more then allowing vehicles to ram, removing the "consolodate assault into a new unit" changing what ranged weapons allowed assault, giving everyone "fleet" - (ability to sack shooting to run), adding in going to ground, bringing in TLOS, changing cover...

so no? i would say 8th was right in line with GW tendancies, and a "full flier expansion with multiple kits for multiple armies" being included in 6th or as a seperate expansion is unlikley at best.

if anything it will be a imperial flier, maybe a single chosen xenos, followed by an optional ruleset that allows existing oval base skimmers to be used as "fliers" in the the optional ruleset. might see some terrain, and a set of counters and thats it. i would even bet it would just allow FW fliers to be used, and forget making new kits. since the imperials already have the valk/vendetta and a raft of FW models. SM have the stormraven and storm eagle, xenos have the razorwing, doomscythe, plus a bunch of forge world models for tau, eldar, orc and a single tyranid flier. plus the necrons are getting the scythe model eventually, wich will also probally be an oval base and work with the rules.

You know all these dates and people holding the rumormongers to them is a little irritating. Nothing ever goes as planned, and I truly believe that when we see rumours for certain things like the "summer of fliers" we are seeing the development of the release. A lot of the time, these rumours could be swallowed by other releases such as six edition or pushed back so that they are released at a better time.

Take last year's summer of fliers. Obviously someone saw something big about fliers. The release could have been changed so that a few are trickled out such as the Stormraven, nightwing, etc. They were released so that 40K players could start to get a feel for them in their games. The actual release that could have been planned for last summer could have been pushed back so that it went along with the 6th edition release. Honestly who would have liked to have 5th edition completely changed with a massive amount of fliers a year before 6th Edition is released? Doesn't it make more sense to trickle them out a little at a time and then add some new rules in 6th and then release some more fliers for everyone?

Well I for one could care less about the actual release dates. I like seeing rumors 2-3 years out. It lets me know what GW has in plan and that they are thinking about things in advance. If you look closely at GW they have been trying to set things right. Finecast is new. They are replacing defective products. If the products are still crap two years from now, then maybe we should complain. Space Wolves and Tyranids finally got some much needed releases, but they were pushed back due to certain legal matters. Every other release has been very good. Look at Necrons and Dark Eldar. Who can honestly say that GW dropped the ball on those armies?

Any ways that was a little off subject, so I guess I should just close up with: I really appreciate the rumours. Keep them coming. Dates can be adjusted and set in stone closer to releases. I like seeing any tidbits even if they don't happen as fast as someone wants them to. If the rumours prove to be false, then I am just going with GW changed their mind folks.

DarthSpader wrote:yes and no...

fantasy 8th was only a slight change up from 7th. it changed and balanced magic, (to compensate for magic heavy chaos daemons and lizardmen among others), changed charge to work on init rather then charger striking first, but otherwise remained pretty much the same with a few tweaks.

the storm of magic expansion falls in line with everything else done.

a few kits, (cockatrice, chymarae, black dragon) a set of templates and some terrain. compared to other expansions in the 40k in fits right in.

cityfight: a book, and a bunch of terrain pieces (cities of death)

planetstrike: terrain set (the blastscape - one with the various wrecked things a few craters, and the bastions along with a book and i believe a re release of a few existing models.

spearhead did not even get a book, just a WD reease and an online supplement, along with a fire prisim retouch, some upgrade packs for gaurd tanks and thats it.

so basically we have a few new models, an expansion book and maybe a set of templates and some terrain. 8th for fantasy followed the profile. and yea its changes were "drastic" but no more then allowing vehicles to ram, removing the "consolodate assault into a new unit" changing what ranged weapons allowed assault, giving everyone "fleet" - (ability to sack shooting to run), adding in going to ground, bringing in TLOS, changing cover...

so no? i would say 8th was right in line with GW tendancies, and a "full flier expansion with multiple kits for multiple armies" being included in 6th or as a seperate expansion is unlikley at best.

if anything it will be a imperial flier, maybe a single chosen xenos, followed by an optional ruleset that allows existing oval base skimmers to be used as "fliers" in the the optional ruleset. might see some terrain, and a set of counters and thats it. i would even bet it would just allow FW fliers to be used, and forget making new kits. since the imperials already have the valk/vendetta and a raft of FW models. SM have the stormraven and storm eagle, xenos have the razorwing, doomscythe, plus a bunch of forge world models for tau, eldar, orc and a single tyranid flier. plus the necrons are getting the scythe model eventually, wich will also probally be an oval base and work with the rules.

Have you even looked at the 8th edition rulebook? There are a ton of changes, way more than magic and initiative fighting. I didn't even read past your first paragraph after you mentioned it was such a miniscule change from 7th. We got a massive overhaul, including changes to fear and terror, a bunch of new special rules, a drastically altered force org chart, hugely overhauled magic in all its forms, infantry became useful, more models fight, a gigantic list of common magic items, and a bunch others. Limiting 8th to only changing two things is ignorant. Take a look through the rulebook sometime-it's not much like 7th at all.

DarthSpader wrote:bringing in TLOS, changing cover...

The change was to cover and cover saves only. 40k always had TLOS. I'd actually say there's less TLOS in 40k now, since you can remove casualties from where the person shooting couldn't even see.

Harry wrote:It does seem that there may be a bunch of stuff all coming together in June.
Beat that with a stick.
(...)
Have not heard about a Chaos flyer. I have heard about the Harpy ... I was expecting that with the earlier Nid release so I imagine that is one kit we will be seeing. I take it as a given that there will be a Fliers section in the core rules.

Kijamon wrote:Alright, some rumours I've heard though I was predicting today to have the space marine flyer so what do I know?

Dark Eldar void raven thingy been spotted as well as the Ork fighta bomba (though the descriptions on that were vague, would guess it'd be a plastic fighta bomba though). Space marines definitely getting something airplaney but it's only an opinion that it'll be a fighter rather than another transport death ship. The reason behind that being... well look at the storm raven and storm eagle? It's not like they are short of weaponry themselves.

Within 2 months.

But the rumour of flier preview pics in the may WD were false. There is a "coming next month" page again, but it talks about White Scars, showing them battling Necrons.

i have both 7th and 8th fantasy books. im talking major changes, not stuff that gets commonly changed. magic i mentioned. going from generating power dice to winds and changing the miscast is the major point. infantry brought in horde rules, and init actually mattering. everything else is pretty much the same with a few tweaks. fear and terror still do essentially the same thing, albeit with some modifcations, movment, shooting, charging, (with the exception of charge distance) remained the same, again with some tweaks. alot of those changes i would classify as low to moderate import. since they dont change the overall mechanic and feel of the game. the magic and infantry rules (and the force selection) DO change it.

but, removing the ability to consoldate into enemys after a assault vicotry was also 'huge' and changed how assault armys worked, how shooty armies deplyed and dealt with that threat, (no more 'speed bumps/bubble wrap). the change to vehicles, in that they can ram, and what they can fire (offense/defensive weapons) was important but not 'huge' when i mean TLOS it went from you needed a full 50% of the unit in cover to even try a cover save, and most was 5+ or 6+ unless you had a ruin or building. units didnt grant cover at all, you needed to be in terrain. (and changes to area terrain rules as well) those are all changes to the core game, but not really super significant. and in all cases 40k just kept its style and feel, without loosing much. the game got more streamlined i thought, but otherwise remained the same.

my point is that 6th, will likley NOT turn 40k on its head, and completley revamp the game like adding fliers would. you would have to either introduce an evasion or other factor for shooting at them, (since the apoc rules imho dont really do them justice, and are broken anyway) so your either going to overpower them so every army now spams fliers, or they get underpowered making them the useless units no one wants. plus, to give each army a flier in plastic kits would require tau, orc, tyranid, vanilla marine, (unless you allow the SR to be all marine), chaos and eldar. thats a pretty tall order of kits to be released, and GW would definitly not release that many kits for that many armies in any sort of close time frame to either 6th or its flier expansion. (wich is more likley)

i would love to see fliers show up and have a use in the game... i just dont see how it would actually work, and the models / rule release would really be against what GW has done previously. - hence the skeptic in me grabbing a bullhorn and climbing a clock tower.

Sorry to interrupt your essay on Fantasy rules in the 40k flier thread, but ...

Harry wrote:

2nd of June is the first Saturday for that month so they'll be a new release on that day. Looks like the Ork Flyer is coming in June!

I think more than just the Ork flyer.
(...)
I am thinking just three of those.... SM, Ork and Necron. (As mentioned in the first post).
I am not saying the other ones are not coming .... just not quite as soon as these three.

Not sure why a multi-faction flyer release would be heralded with a full-page Ork glyph.

Because an Ork Flier would be new, and Orks are cool.

lord_blackfang wrote:Not sure why a multi-faction flyer release would be heralded with a full-page Ork glyph.

For the same reason why the May WD makes a full page announcement that the June WD covers White Scars.
Gives them a kick to only publish misleading information.

Dollars to donuts they are saving the IG flyers for when they put out the new guard codex,whenever that might be.
Give FW time to clear out thier stock.

DarthSpader wrote:plus, to give each army a flier in plastic kits would require tau, orc, tyranid, vanilla marine, (unless you allow the SR to be all marine), chaos and eldar. thats a pretty tall order of kits to be released, and GW would definitly not release that many kits for that many armies in any sort of close time frame to either 6th or its flier expansion. (wich is more likley)

Considering the Harpy, the Necron fliers and an Ork fighter have actually been seen, the Eldar have had a flier rumoured by Harry which is pretty reliable, Tau have had a flier in their rumours for ages (an Orca type dropship), and Marines have been rumoured to get a new flier that isn't the Storm Raven for 6th for longer than Tau and the Orca, I'd say that all the races getting a flier is pretty likely.

Fliers are happeneing. They've been in every codex since Guard. The current rules also do not make them play like aircraft.

So it's not a leap to assume that with every race getting a type of flier or already having them, and rules that don't do them well in 5th, that they'd be getting added in 6th with proer rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eisenhorn wrote:Dollars to donuts they are saving the IG flyers for when they put out the new guard codex,whenever that might be.
Give FW time to clear out thier stock.

Yeah, it's not like Guard have a flyer already right.

Kroothawk wrote:But the rumour of flier preview pics in the may WD were false. There is a "coming next month" page again, but it talks about White Scars, showing them battling Necrons.

The rumour was/is that it was going to be in the June WD, which is released at the end of May. Just like how the Necrons 2nd wave in May was in the May WD, released in April.

If there is a Space Marine flier, hopefully it's a Thunderhawk and not another Stormraven that not even the Marine players were asking for.

I dunno I am kind of a fan of the storm eagle. Really like how it is looking.

AlexHolker wrote:If there is a Space Marine flier, hopefully it's a Thunderhawk and not another Stormraven that not even the Marine players were asking for.

Because a two foot long plastic box of death is viable for standard games of 40k.

Brother SRM wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:If there is a Space Marine flier, hopefully it's a Thunderhawk and not another Stormraven that not even the Marine players were asking for.

Because a two foot long plastic box of death is viable for standard games of 40k.

Yeah, just like the Baneblade, Shadowsword and Stompa are.

Despite my feelings about how Space Marines are smothering the game, the Thunderhawk is an iconic part of the Warhammer 40,000 setting. It is at least something everyone knows people are already looking for, and it's a vehicle with only two variants, so we're not going to see an endless stream of knockoffs like with the plastic Dreadnoughts.

There is also talk of some form of CSM dragon flyer. I wonder if there is going to be a big flyer release and the green and ork glyff is just that the ork fighter is just what they are leading with in Oz. In the UK possibly a SM fast figher (hence white scars) and the necron model. White scars also lets them show off the new bike upgrades.

Pure guess work and sugestion of how the two might fit together.

Hopefully we are seeing GW getting back to propper hints and the like for us, and they are starting to work out how viral adverts actualy work.

AlexHolker wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:If there is a Space Marine flier, hopefully it's a Thunderhawk and not another Stormraven that not even the Marine players were asking for.

Because a two foot long plastic box of death is viable for standard games of 40k.

Yeah, just like the Baneblade, Shadowsword and Stompa are.

Despite my feelings about how Space Marines are smothering the game, the Thunderhawk is an iconic part of the Warhammer 40,000 setting. It is at least something everyone knows people are already looking for, and it's a vehicle with only two variants, so we're not going to see an endless stream of knockoffs like with the plastic Dreadnoughts.

His point was it's a superheavy. Superheavys aren't useable outside of Apocalypse, and flier rumours are pointing towards non-apocalypse fliers for all races. Apocalypse and fliers are rumoured to be two different things - fliers in the abse game, Apocalypse still a 'variant'.

While yes, a plastic Thunderhawk would be sweet (and I wouldn't doubt they have one ready to go already in case they needed an emergency 'big release'), it's not a regular unit for 40k.

I would assume they will leave any Chaos flyer for when the new codex comes out (supposedly end of 2012 i think?). otherwise they will be effectively releasing spoilers on the new dex/rules etc (kind of like people think the latest chaos FW stuff might be doing)

So if they do a flyer release to coincide with the 6th Ed i would think it woudl be:

SM (dunno.....How big is a Stormbird supposed to be?)
Ork
Necron

The other races that are missing flyers (Tau, Eldar) are coming around for new codecies in the not-too-distant future so they might hold out until then.

-Loki- wrote:
His point was it's a superheavy. Superheavys aren't useable outside of Apocalypse, and flier rumours are pointing towards non-apocalypse fliers for all races. Apocalypse and fliers are rumoured to be two different things - fliers in the abse game, Apocalypse still a 'variant'.

While yes, a plastic Thunderhawk would be sweet (and I wouldn't doubt they have one ready to go already in case they needed an emergency 'big release'), it's not a regular unit for 40k.

Right on the money! I would dig a plastic Thunderhawk or Warhound but understand they're not for standard sized games.

-Loki- wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:plus, to give each army a flier in plastic kits would require tau, orc, tyranid, vanilla marine, (unless you allow the SR to be all marine), chaos and eldar. thats a pretty tall order of kits to be released, and GW would definitly not release that many kits for that many armies in any sort of close time frame to either 6th or its flier expansion. (wich is more likley)

Considering the Harpy, the Necron fliers and an Ork fighter have actually been seen, the Eldar have had a flier rumoured by Harry which is pretty reliable, Tau have had a flier in their rumours for ages (an Orca type dropship), and Marines have been rumoured to get a new flier that isn't the Storm Raven for 6th for longer than Tau and the Orca, I'd say that all the races getting a flier is pretty likely.

Fliers are happeneing. They've been in every codex since Guard. The current rules also do not make them play like aircraft.

So it's not a leap to assume that with every race getting a type of flier or already having them, and rules that don't do them well in 5th, that they'd be getting added in 6th with proer rules.

I seriously doubt Sisters are getting a flier of their own, as they have gotten nothing new in 8 years model or otherwise. In fact they have lost stuff in thier 5th edition codex. If they get a flyer at all they will likely be borrowing the Valkyrie from IG.

GW aren't going to 'squat' Sisters. They've said a few times no races will get that done to them. So they'll be definitely getting a proper codex, it just depends on when.

Looking at their model range, they'll be getting the royal treatment. They need new kits for everything, which is likely the cause of the 5th edition delay that surprised even knowledgeable rumour guys, There's a lot of work to be done.

But it'll come. And looking at GW's releases of other races getting the same treatment (they've done a few lately), they won't be skimping on the range. They want them to sell, afterall. With every race getting a flier, Sisters will get their own.

Yeah, considering what happened to Dark Eldar I wouldn't be too worried. Impatient, but not worried.

-Loki- wrote:GW aren't going to 'squat' Sisters. They've said a few times no races will get that done to them. So they'll be definitely getting a proper codex, it just depends on when.

Looking at their model range, they'll be getting the royal treatment. They need new kits for everything, which is likely the cause of the 5th edition delay that surprised even knowledgeable rumour guys, There's a lot of work to be done.

But it'll come. And looking at GW's releases of other races getting the same treatment (they've done a few lately), they won't be skimping on the range. They want them to sell, afterall. With every race getting a flier, Sisters will get their own.

I have no doubt they will eventually update them, I'm just not counting on getting a flier at all with this. If anythign they will probably get a some sort of AA rule for the Exorcist and they will leave it at that. That would in keeping with every other supplement they have released to date. I imagine they will get a flier whenever they give Sisters a real update. I guesstimate that will be in 2015 or so.

I imagine the ork glyph could be because if Orks get a flier, they'll need to publish those particular rules in the WD for players to use the model. Necrons rules are already published. What are space marines getting? Storm Hawk? I guess any new SM flier would need rules and which armies it worked for (here's hoping for a fast attack ship that BA can take - do an army of fliers!)

For those who are skeptical of rules released in WD:
The Terrorgheist/Ghoul King, Tomb Banshee, and Cairn Wraith as Heroes in Vampires would like a word with you. As would the Eldar Nightspinner.

They all had rules published in White Dwarf before an army book.

Brother SRM wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
His point was it's a superheavy. Superheavys aren't useable outside of Apocalypse, and flier rumours are pointing towards non-apocalypse fliers for all races. Apocalypse and fliers are rumoured to be two different things - fliers in the abse game, Apocalypse still a 'variant'.

While yes, a plastic Thunderhawk would be sweet (and I wouldn't doubt they have one ready to go already in case they needed an emergency 'big release'), it's not a regular unit for 40k.

Right on the money! I would dig a plastic Thunderhawk or Warhound but understand they're not for standard sized games.

Never know they might of got a sneal peek at 6th edition and they make Super Heavies Legal for all games.
I doubt thuderhawk though these new StormRavens I think were meant to fil that gap,that's why they are being wrote into alot of the books now like they alway been around.
Give it 10 years and Stormraven and that size craft will be the norm for marines with the T-Hawk stays a specialist piece.
30 man capacity makes no sense for marines(well it does but follow my logic next sentence)
10 plus dred why ain't that a starter sets main force,Assults have reserve and jumpacks the tacs need the transport in games.
Plus they can have the stock body and make upgrades via forgeworld
A small gunship that escorts this that has lots of shooty death for marines is my guess maybe 5 man cap glorfied Armored Scout Tempest if you will