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 Haight wrote:


So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.

Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Haight wrote:


So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.

Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.

Exactly - seeing a shambling horror of a game, and being told 'Well, at least it's Warhammer, right?' does not make it any less of a shambolic mess.

To go to the far end of hyperbole... If your wife is brutally murdered, and some necromancer robs her grave and you wake up next to her reanimated, but still rotting corpse - with none of the personality that you loved, just the worm raddled flesh... you don't celebrate the fact that she is back.

How was that for over the top hyperbole?

But, honestly, what I am hearing does not make me see 9th edition as a good thing.... It sounds like a huge pile of suck, at this point. (And 8th was a big enough pile of suck to make Kings of War very popular in my area.)

The Auld Grump

 Vermis wrote:

 Haight wrote:

So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th.

I have one response to that.

Spoiler:

Again fair point, but i think there's a significant number of people that would disagree (witty michael caine jpeg aside, even, at that).
Yes there are other rule sets to use your minis out there, but again, I have a feeling that woudl end up being the exception and not the rule. It would also be very hard to recruit new players into that scene as opposed to other games with active communitys that are stll supported by the manufacturer, etc.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Haight wrote:


So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.

Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.

Nothing about what i wrote said you can't. What i was inferring and that I think you missed is that if you want continued manufacturer support of any kind (note the rumors stated that the skirmish models would be playable in one or more regimental sized armies), then you probably want 9th to succeed, or there may not be a tenth, given the dire straits the game is in.

My playgroup is in the exact same boat ; if we don't like 9th, we'll continue with 8th, so i agree with you.



Sheesh. No fething wonder GW doesn't interact with its fan base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Haight wrote:


So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.

Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.

Exactly - seeing a shambling horror of a game, and being told 'Well, at least it's Warhammer, right?' does not make it any less of a shambolic mess.

To go to the far end of hyperbole... If your wife is brutally murdered, and some necromancer robs her grave and you wake up next to her reanimated, but still rotting corpse - with none of the personality that you loved, just the worm raddled flesh... you don't celebrate the fact that she is back.

How was that for over the top hyperbole?

But, honestly, what I am hearing does not make me see 9th edition as a good thing.... It sounds like a huge pile of suck, at this point. (And 8th was a big enough pile of suck to make Kings of War very popular in my area.)

The Auld Grump

To be 100% fair, i'm not loving what i hear either.

The most current rumors made me more comfortable than i was before. Hence my playgroups trepidation.

Honestly, my entire original point was that the situation seemed slightly better than it had 48 hours ago.

That's all.

I don't personally think WHFB as a skirmish game is going to work if the ruleset (very beer and pretzel-y) is as loose as their other games. Skirmish games tend to require tight rule sets to work, and i don't think GW can support that.

All just hunches / opinion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this: some minor details of the 9th starter boxed set.... most of this is rehash, but a couple interesting nuggets:

From BOLS:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/wfb-9th-starter-box-details.html

Thats a really bizarre way of looking at it Haight.

I can try to understand your point of view and concerns about wfb continuity into the 10th... But I fail to comprehend how my investment into a product I do not like will create something I will enjoy in the future. I think the logic and common sense on this will tell you exactly the opposite.
People have models, regiments and huge armies, believe me when I say its easier to switch companies rulebooks than is to trash your collections and start all over again. Its a clear cut that the one losing the train here will be GW.

ET was interesting for a bit of time but the book spam, no matter how good they are is a major turn off for me, are we collecting minis or books here? If its books screw GW rulebooks and I will go for actual artbooks instead. The rumor hints not for one rulebook but a sum of books... In my opinion the high price of books for all factions is one of the major problems with WFB. People will not spend that money just to satisfy their curiosity about other factions and as consequence they will never collect other armies. I sense an incoming wave of book spam for lots of bubbles. I hope Im wrong there but I can tell you that , like finecast, I will not support things I do not agree with.

 Haight wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...

Right. I'm sure the guy is approximating but I think his point is that "it's mostly staying the same". That's what's worth being happy about if (big IF) its true.

Maybe it's 87.6529 % similar ?




Let's all remember too, that allegedly according to a few different rumors in the past few weeks, they almost shut Fantasy down completely ! I forget where that was stated, but i remember reading it on a couple different sites regarding 9th rumors. I don't find it that thard to believe if the 8% of profits for the company is true. That's.... lean profit wise.

So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.

It's only "roughly 90% the same" if you consider "Warhammer Fantasy" to be a set of rules. I don't give a flying fig about "Warhammer Fantasy Battle" - people have been saying for years now, ever since they let Mordheim fade into the background and then dropped it completely, that Warhammer needed a skirmish-level entry game - I care about Warhammer Fantasy, the IP; the world, the fiction, the factions. Saying "Oh well, you can counts-as for one of the new factions" means nothing to me, because I can "counts as" my Warhammer models in Kings of War, or half a dozen other fantasy rulesets, or just play older editions if the rules are my problem - my problem is GW will no longer be producing models that fit the aesthetics of the existing factions, or fiction set in the world I like with the characters, nations, and armies I like.

And you know what? Yeah, I'll say it; I would rather Warhammer Fantasy "dies" like the Specialist Games did and essentially gets taken over by the community, than see it "die" as it will if these rumours bear out and GW shred a thirty year old IP for another temporary sales boost to fatten Kirby's retirement fund. At least then there would be a chance it could return in a more hopeful future when the company is under better management, or would at least be available intact in its present form to be bought up if the company ever does go under/gets bought out.

 Haight wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

Well they said the rules would be staying 90% the same, and round bases would just be for distinct unit types (i think warmachines - fine with that, though concerning about stuff like bells and censors and such that go in units, skirmishers - fine with this, and sometimes characters.... m'kay this needs clarification).
Basically the old factions will still be viable but not as immediately supported. THe game will now have a (vis-a-vis Rag'Na'Rok like) high scale and low scale game to it. Fine with this.
For a while the game will focus on supporting the low scale portion of the game. Understandable, it's brand new.
And it will be a while before the high scale sees much support. Also okay with this becasue...
.... the low scale minis will be useable at high scale in at least one "old" army. If i read that right. Some of the Eng(mang)lish was a bit hard to parse.
The bummer points: Brets and Beasts probably not getting a new book. That very much sucks. :(
So.... yeah. if 9th is 90% of 8th (which ostensibly, magic phase aside, is a good edition), and doesn't wall paper my tens of thousands of points of models. Yup, i'm feeling much more comfortable.

You do realize that this:

If you have an old army you can still play it, but it may effectively become an “orphan” in the new system, workable – but with little to no forward support in the new game.

Means that all of this in your signature:

High Elves: ~ 7500 (it's a sickness...)
Ogre Kingdoms: 3600
Host of the Eternity King: 12994 + magic items
Chaos Dwarves: ~3500 (6-7k if you play with the ogre slave rules).

Just effectively became the fantasy equivalent of Sisters of Battle. No new rules, no new rulebooks, no new models. I just say this because I'm in the same boat with about as many points in Ogres and Vampire Counts. It's depressing and angering at the same time. If true, they're really not "squatting" our armies, they're just shoving them off to the side. We'll probably be able to use some of the models from them with the new factions (however many there winds up but being) but the majority will likely become paperweight. This forces a decision; give GW the finger, sell out/bin the armies and walk away, play 8th edition if you have enough like-minded people, or shoehorn your armies in with one of the generic rule-sets out there and hope you find enough of a community to play. Like I said, if true, depressing and angering; for me anyway.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Thats a really bizarre way of looking at it Haight.

I can try to understand your point of view and concerns about wfb continuity into the 10th... But I fail to comprehend how my investment into a product I do not like will create something I will enjoy in the future.

Okay... i'll try this again.

No one is saying that yo should buy something you don't like. However if you want to see continued manufacturer support for Warhammer Fantasy Battle, you probably should hope that 9th is at least somewhat successful. Or there is the very real risk that it could be dropped altogether... and if so, knowing how GW treats other IP's, it probably won't come back (see also Mordheim and Necromunda / gorka morka, with counterpoint being space hulk, but i'm pretty sure SH always sold well, yes ?) You probably should, even if you don't like 9th's skirmish thing very much, hope that it succeeds, unless you're like Yohdrin and are okay with the entire franchise and IP expiring. If so, then yeah, you probably won't care one way or another.

I think the logic and common sense on this will tell you exactly the opposite.

No really. I have seen some logical arguments in this thread, and i've usually responded to them with soemething akin to "valid" or "fair point" or some such, even if i don't agree with them. Mostly it's been anecodotal soapboxing or hyperbole spouting though.

People have models, regiments and huge armies, believe me when I say its easier to switch companies rulebooks than is to trash your collections and start all over again. Its a clear cut that the one losing the train here will be GW.

Again, you can do that. There are two problems here though: 1) if WHFB dries up those games are going to branch off and do their own thing, not just mimic what WHFB is doing with cheaper models, as they'll have zero impetus to do that anymore. So ergo, as time marches on, you'll have less and less of a spot on match with company #2 than GW. Not saying you can't do this, you totally can ; but as time goes on, i think there will be less synergy between say GW Dwarfs and Mantic Dwarfs for instance.

ET was interesting for a bit of time but the book spam, no matter how good they are is a major turn off for me, are we collecting minis or books here?

This is entirely your opinion, so that makes it valid. I disagree. I think the books are gorgeous, as are most of the minis they've released, if perhaps the minis rules haven't been outstanding all the time.

If its books screw GW rulebooks and I will go for actual artbooks instead.

Part of the appeal of the end times books product is that they are a nice quasi-coffee table book quality book. There were numerous threads where people expressed concern that they had 1-2 or 1-3 in hardcover, and wanted to make sure that they could get Thanquol and eventually archaon in hardcover. Granted in terms of art, the artbooks are better, but these kind of combine an art book with a pretty compelling story (some of it is silly, yes, but generally it's written pretty well, shooting down moons aside, in my opinion).

The rumor hints not for one rulebook but a sum of books... In my opinion the high price of books for all factions is one of the major problems with WFB. People will not spend that money just to satisfy their curiosity about other factions and as consequence they will never collect other armies. I sense an incoming wave of book spam for lots of bubbles. I hope Im wrong there but I can tell you that , like finecast, I will not support things I do not agree with.

I am thinking that there will be a core rule book, and then like with island of blood a pamphlet-esque thing that comes with all the starters giving some fluffy background, a bit of info, and some general low lying fruit game play tips. Just a hunch. In the old days, the starter sets used to come with multiple books. Digging deep here... but i think 2nd ed 40k came with a stats rulebook. They might, in lieu of such big changes, do the same thing here. In fact, i kind of thing they would have to one way or the other, but then again, maybe not.



EDIT: blah, broken quotes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 agnosto wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

Well they said the rules would be staying 90% the same, and round bases would just be for distinct unit types (i think warmachines - fine with that, though concerning about stuff like bells and censors and such that go in units, skirmishers - fine with this, and sometimes characters.... m'kay this needs clarification).
Basically the old factions will still be viable but not as immediately supported. THe game will now have a (vis-a-vis Rag'Na'Rok like) high scale and low scale game to it. Fine with this.
For a while the game will focus on supporting the low scale portion of the game. Understandable, it's brand new.
And it will be a while before the high scale sees much support. Also okay with this becasue...
.... the low scale minis will be useable at high scale in at least one "old" army. If i read that right. Some of the Eng(mang)lish was a bit hard to parse.
The bummer points: Brets and Beasts probably not getting a new book. That very much sucks. :(
So.... yeah. if 9th is 90% of 8th (which ostensibly, magic phase aside, is a good edition), and doesn't wall paper my tens of thousands of points of models. Yup, i'm feeling much more comfortable.

You do realize that this:

If you have an old army you can still play it, but it may effectively become an “orphan” in the new system, workable – but with little to no forward support in the new game.

Means that all of this in your signature:

High Elves: ~ 7500 (it's a sickness...)
Ogre Kingdoms: 3600
Host of the Eternity King: 12994 + magic items
Chaos Dwarves: ~3500 (6-7k if you play with the ogre slave rules).

Just effectively became the fantasy equivalent of Sisters of Battle. No new rules, no new rulebooks, no new models. I just say this because I'm in the same boat with about as many points in Ogres and Vampire Counts. It's depressing and angering at the same time. If true, they're really not "squatting" our armies, they're just shoving them off to the side. We'll probably be able to use some of the models from them with the new factions (however many there winds up but being) but the majority will likely become paperweight. This forces a decision; give GW the finger, sell out/bin the armies and walk away, play 8th edition if you have enough like-minded people, or shoehorn your armies in with one of the generic rule-sets out there and hope you find enough of a community to play. Like I said, if true, depressing and angering; for me anyway.

Except for that whole part about "all the old armies are still playable, just won't have immediate new support for a while". Ya know, except that whole part about "all the new skirmish models will be useable in at least one of the old armies, maybe more" thing too

 Haight wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.

But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.

Exactly !


What' Fantasy's biggest problem ? Multiple barriers to entry, the first being cost. Other than Island of Blood, what does your average fantasy army cost including rule books ? 600+ bucks if bought at MSRP ? That's huge. That's probably the number one reason why Fantasy has been losing players.

If they introduce a skirmish game within the game, with models that are backwards compatible into the regiment scale game, then that's a decent shot at breaking that barrier for those interested in the game.

Note they are taking other barrier to entry reducing methods too ; 50% in lords and heroes in End Times is a directly corrolating model count reducing move at the same time allowing them to uptick and upcreep the points cost of heroes and lords.

Have you seen the costs of the character models? Averaging from 15- 25 per, USD.

 Haight wrote:

Except for that whole part about "all the old armies are still playable, just won't have immediate new support for a while". Ya know, except that whole part about "all the new skirmish models will be useable in at least one of the old armies, maybe more" thing too

I hope that you'll pardon my pessimism when I say that. Yes, it does say all of that but then tales it all away by saying that the old armies become "orphans" with little to no support going forward. I don't really know how I can take that any other way than to mean that initially, I'll be able to remain "competitive" (note, I use this term to mean viable against supported armies) but over time the supported, new factions will get all the love, new toys and ultimately leave my old armies behind. This appears to not be an "adopt or die" but rather "adopt or slide into oblivion" scenario. I played Tau in 5th and remember this all too well and I'm sure that Sisters of Battle players can tell you exactly how this feels now. The problem here is that GWs model of game development does not support all factions or all units being on an equal footing between updates.

 Haight wrote:


Nothing about what i wrote said you can't. What i was inferring and that I think you missed is that if you want continued manufacturer support of any kind (note the rumors stated that the skirmish models would be playable in one or more regimental sized armies), then you probably want 9th to succeed, or there may not be a tenth, given the dire straits the game is in.

That's how it should be. What use is the "support" of a developer if the "support" is utter garbage?

If you "support" a game or rather its most recent iteration, then all you say is that you fully support and love the direction the game takes. If you don't, then you don't. When it comes to buying stuff or not, there is no middle ground...you either pay or you don't. If you pay, you fully agree with everything the developer / manufacturer does in his eyes. If you don't, you don't.

 Haight wrote:


No one is saying that yo should buy something you don't like. However if you want to see continued manufacturer support for Warhammer Fantasy Battle, you probably should hope that 9th is at least somewhat successful. Or there is the very real risk that it could be dropped altogether... and if so, knowing how GW treats other IP's, it probably won't come back (see also Mordheim and Necromunda / gorka morka, with counterpoint being space hulk, but i'm pretty sure SH always sold well, yes ?) You probably should, even if you don't like 9th's skirmish thing very much, hope that it succeeds, unless you're like Yohdrin and are okay with the entire franchise and IP expiring. If so, then yeah, you probably won't care one way or another.

See I inferred from your previous post that we should kind of support it, but what you actually tried to say was we should wish its a hit if we want to see it WFB continuing correct?
Going back to finecast... I love some of the GW models but not enough to buy something that does not satisfy my needs, even if compromised the continuity of said gw miniatures. Also Im an old enough fart to detach myself from rage quitting things. I mean if its not for me I just detach myself and look elsewere but I will not wish that all just goes belly up, I believe that the more options on the market the merrier, someone surely will enjoy 9th ( I may even love it). Some specialist games only live in the obscurity of the homes of vets and clubs ( I think bloodbowl is the exception since its really popular), and even if these games could have had decent support its not happening. Is this a bad thing? Sure if you want to have official support and continuous updates. Will this happen to WFB? Its a possibility. I would like to state the obvious though its not up to us... its only up to GW to create an appealing engaging game. I think that WFB deserves to continue in full glory but I will not support a caricature full of bubbles.

 Haight wrote:

No really. I have seen some logical arguments in this thread, and i've usually responded to them with soemething akin to "valid" or "fair point" or some such, even if i don't agree with them. Mostly it's been anecodotal soapboxing or hyperbole spouting though.

I kind of tried to understand your point of view even if I failed though

 Haight wrote:

Again, you can do that. There are two problems here though: 1) if WHFB dries up those games are going to branch off and do their own thing, not just mimic what WHFB is doing with cheaper models, as they'll have zero impetus to do that anymore. So ergo, as time marches on, you'll have less and less of a spot on match with company #2 than GW. Not saying you can't do this, you totally can ; but as time goes on, i think there will be less synergy between say GW Dwarfs and Mantic Dwarfs for instance.

Thats a bit of a guess the future exercise there. We do not know how things would unfold. It could be like you said or it could be that other companies release freerulesets compatible with WFB armies and we all have fun regardless of who publish them... will that have a huge following or it will simply die out? Putting my guessing hat here, I think the future is heading to more games and more options and less only one big company with a couple big games. Ridiculous comparison alert... GW gamesday is empty and salute is jam packed... maybe GW is no longer the main interest of the majority of wargammers.

 Haight wrote:

This is entirely your opinion, so that makes it valid. I disagree. I think the books are gorgeous, as are most of the minis they've released, if perhaps the minis rules haven't been outstanding all the time.
Part of the appeal of the end times books product is that they are a nice quasi-coffee table book quality book. There were numerous threads where people expressed concern that they had 1-2 or 1-3 in hardcover, and wanted to make sure that they could get Thanquol and eventually archaon in hardcover. Granted in terms of art, the artbooks are better, but these kind of combine an art book with a pretty compelling story (some of it is silly, yes, but generally it's written pretty well, shooting down moons aside, in my opinion).

Thanks for reminding its only my opinion, I totally forgot about that, for a moment I imagined myself talking for all geekind
Yeah its totally my biased way, I love a good artbook and I collect them as much as I love a good miniature... Rules? If they are free or at a realistic price sure thing. Amalgam of art, rules and fluff? Its not fish or meat so not to my taste and a waste of precious shelf space.

 Haight wrote:

T am thinking that there will be a core rule book, and then like with island of blood a pamphlet-esque thing that comes with all the starters giving some fluffy background, a bit of info, and some general low lying fruit game play tips. Just a hunch. In the old days, the starter sets used to come with multiple books. Digging deep here... but i think 2nd ed 40k came with a stats rulebook. They might, in lieu of such big changes, do the same thing here. In fact, i kind of thing they would have to one way or the other, but then again, maybe not.

I see an infinite array of prearranged battlegroups books with their own rules every 3 months.

I feel sorry for you Haight

The new set of rumours sound better than the previous rumours because the changes aren't as severe.

So all or many WHFB armies might be relegated to Sisters of Battle status (I.e supported in that some models are available but no more updates). But considering the previous rumours had our armies relagated to Gorkamorka status (I.e models not available, rules not supported, can use to proxy BUT you would have to rebase them all), we are now in a much better position

 Haight wrote:

Again, you can do that. There are two problems here though: 1) if WHFB dries up those games are going to branch off and do their own thing, not just mimic what WHFB is doing with cheaper models, as they'll have zero impetus to do that anymore. So ergo, as time marches on, you'll have less and less of a spot on match with company #2 than GW. Not saying you can't do this, you totally can ; but as time goes on, i think there will be less synergy between say GW Dwarfs and Mantic Dwarfs for instance.

I dunno if it'll play out like that. Historical rulesets aren't quite a flush fit as an analogy, because all the rulesets gathered under a particular era or period use the same established 'fluff', so to speak; but since I dipped into them a few years ago I've noticed new ones tend towards multibasing or 'frontage' conventions that are compatible with older, popular systems or are quite flexible or informal. A 60x40mm element in DBX can be lined up with two others to make a unit in Hail Caesar, pushed together with three others to make a unit in Impetus and Dux Bellorum, etc. I know HC and Dux Bellorum in particular basically say 'pff, use whatever base size you want, as long as the unit frontages reasonably match'.

There's actually slightly less multibasing compatibility between some fantasy battle games, though it doesn't quite matter 'cos they're usually multiples of the 20x20mm individual bases that a certain popular game goes for (pity about the scale-crept oversized infantry on 25x25), and I'm getting away from my point. The compatibility that I see in fantasy games include generic or abstract unit entries for fantasy archetypes (including a few that WFB might've popularised; examples would be Kings of War, Hordes of the Things, and God of Battles), or unit creation rules that let you slot in stats and abilities for whatever you have in your collection. (examples include Mayhem, Legions of Battle, Armies of Arcana, Fantasy Rules!, etc.)

So on the topic of 'not mimicking GW with cheaper models', and spinning off with their own look and fluff: only two of the fantasy games I mentioned have the ability to do that - KoW and GoB (and GoB is actually based around Foundry's fairly expensive fantasy models, which is not so good because they're pisspoor) The others are just rules. They're not written to have an attached, 'unique' background awkwardly shoehorned in where possible, and not written to flog a proprietary range of minis; they're written to be good, fun sets of rules. Though obviously YMMV between them. Their lack of nitty-grit might also turn off some gamers, but IMO their generic nature is their strength: a lot of armies in fantasy settings boil down to real-world types and fantasy tropes anyway, and as mentioned these rules can concentrate on delivering a good mass-battle game experience through that, rather than fretting over Phoenix Guards' precog abilities, the precise effects of drugs or Stormbringer on Elric's combat and leadership qualities, the mattocks wielded by the Iron Hill dwarves compared to axes or whatnot, and other such hangups and speedbumps that shouldn't really matter to a broad-strokes game.

The need to shoehorn those speshul-snowflake rules to tie the Warhammer rules to the Warhammer background and Warhammer minis, while also writing the rules to sell bigger and bigger Warhammer armies, is arguably what's led us to this nadir of WFB's popularity and the possibly catastrophic shakeup of 9th ed, anyway. I admit it's left me a bit suspicious of other all-in-one package games too, for better or worse. Games like Warmachine, Infinity and Malifaux. Having some experience of these (particularly Malifaux) I don't doubt they play somewhat smoother than GW's core two, but I still see a lot of gimmicky stuff that seems to me designed to snare gamers (or keep them snared) in that indivisible package mentality. You need to use your Mei-Feng mini in Malifaux to make use of that cardful of kewl, badazz, overpowered roolz (when Mei-Feng turned up in 1st ed Malifaux, I swear the power creep made 40K look balanced. Power creep? Power pole-vault...) and if you've got that cardful of kewl, highly character-specific roolz, you might as well get that expensive Mei-Feng mini to make it clear, rather than proxy. How many would think to use their Malifaux crews with more generic steampunk/VSF rules like In Her Majesty's Name or GASLIGHT, if it came with a debuff? How many proud warjack owners in Warmachine would be interested in Mayhem's 'bound construct' rules, if they have to abandon all that combo-building?

So that brings me to my next thoughts, and back to Warhammer...

 NAVARRO wrote:
Also Im an old enough fart to detach myself from rage quitting things. I mean if its not for me I just detach myself and look elsewere but I will not wish that all just goes belly up, I believe that the more options on the market the merrier, someone surely will enjoy 9th ( I may even love it).

I don't ragequit either, but part of me thinks GW would need to crash and burn, to end the sometimes-disturbing hold it has over the market (still string despite losses), allow those other options to appear and thrive, and introduce some gamers to a more personalised and - pardon the term - holistic way of gaming.

Some specialist games only live in the obscurity of the homes of vets and clubs ( I think bloodbowl is the exception since its really popular), and even if these games could have had decent support its not happening. Is this a bad thing? Sure if you want to have official support and continuous updates.

You might guess by now that I'd think 'official support and continuous updates' aren't all they're cracked up to be. Not with the kind of support and updates GW might offer. (boils down to 'your old stuff is down the crapper now; buy this new stuff at a higher price') There are plenty of current SG players and supporters who might agree with me.

It could be like you said or it could be that other companies release freerulesets compatible with WFB armies and we all have fun regardless of who publish them... will that have a huge following or it will simply die out? Putting my guessing hat here, I think the future is heading to more games and more options and less only one big company with a couple big games.

Aye, obviously I'd agree with that as an ideal, even if I'm not sure it'd come about. It'd be a situation more like historical gaming, where for the most part you choose your period, rules and minis seperately. But like I've said before, I think Leto II might need to fall over a cliff, first.

Ridiculous comparison alert... GW gamesday is empty and salute is jam packed... maybe GW is no longer the main interest of the majority of wargammers.

If it ever was. GW's big, but with a lot of fairly temporary customers, and an otherwise inward-looking player base.

 Haight wrote:

This is entirely your opinion, so that makes it valid. I disagree. I think the books are gorgeous, as are most of the minis they've released, if perhaps the minis rules haven't been outstanding all the time.
Part of the appeal of the end times books product is that they are a nice quasi-coffee table book quality book.

Bleedin' Nora, it's a book of instructions for moving about your toy soldiers!

The move to low model count armies with lots of big models sounds very much like the Herohammer era, in which you'd sink max points into Lords & Monsters, with minimum points in mandatory infantry. To be fair, that was a very creative period with a lot of growth.

 Haight wrote:
No one is saying that yo should buy something you don't like. However if you want to see continued manufacturer support for Warhammer Fantasy Battle, you probably should hope that 9th is at least somewhat successful. Or there is the very real risk that it could be dropped altogether... and if so, knowing how GW treats other IP's, it probably won't come back

The problem there though is that if this new WFB is successful, you won't get the old WFB you liked back, they'll just keep doing more of the same.

If you actually like 8th Ed WFB, you want 9th Ed to totally flop because it'll mean either (A) GW will realise their mistake and backpeddle with 10th, so you've only got a few years of playing the orphaned 8th Ed, or (B) GW will just drop it completely and the community will keep it going with support from legion manufacturers.

The "old WFB you liked" will be alive as long as you (and, importantly, your gaming mates) allow it to be.

Oldhammer exists for a reason. There are already tons of alternative rulesets (Vermis regularly reminds everyone of it, and that's good because many people seem to either forget it or ignore it completely). The picture right now looks so grim (nice work geedubs, I guess) that in spanish-speaking forums alone I've already seen several initiatives of developing alternative rulesets based on the WHFB system.

Players have simply to understand the fact that it's the community, and not any company, what truly makes the game. Any game will stay alive as long as there's demand of it. Even if GW crumbles tomorrow morning, other manufacturers will provide the miniatures as long as people wants them. What the community needs is to organize itself a bit better. This is not the 80s or the 90s anymore, internet is virtually everywhere in developed countries.

While all those miniatures, books and White Dwarfs won't spontaneously combust the second 9th hits, "Old" WHFB will still slowly wither. There are still communities of Specialist Gamers out there, there are probably people playing Confrontation, AT-43, Alkemy and all those other games that left us.
But, and this is a BIG but: A game that is not supported shrivels away. Yes, even if new releases can be used in the old game (and that is a big if), it will slowly lose the momentum it has left, with no new books, no exposure, no direct recruitment.
The big things Warhammer has going for it are the Fluff and the fact that there are so many people that play it. The latter is something WHFB has almost lost and the former is being completely demolished by GW. So, with the fluff that many people love gone and with the same playerbase most dead games have, many people will simply stop. There is nothing new to talk about on boards, everything that happens, happens in Bubbleworld now and there is next to nobody left to play. Sure, it will keep going for a while, but it will go the same way Specialist Games went after they cut support, especially if they actually remove existing models from the ranges.

Just to address the whole "90% the same" idea.

A mouse is ~97.5% the same, genetically speaking, as a person.

You wouldn't find anyone arguing that they're not very different animals!

Even small changes could have fundamental and far reaching effects.

Simply changing whole army activation to alternating unit activation only changes a few sentances (less than 0.1% of the word count of the rules) yet would have a profound change several orders of magnitude beyond that percentage in actual play. I don't think people on either side of the discussion should put so much faith into a rumor monger percentage. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said that 98% of quotes and percentages you find on the internet are false.

As long as WHFB 9th doesn't fail they will march forward in the direction 9th sets. 9th would have to be an utter flop to get them to not continue on wards with that direction. If it is it does flop there is no certainty they won't cut losses and dump WHFB altogether.

 warboss wrote:
Simply changing whole army activation to alternating unit activation only changes a few sentances (less than 0.1% of the word count of the rules) yet would have a profound change several orders of magnitude beyond that percentage in actual play. I don't think people on either side of the discussion should put so much faith into a rumor monger percentage. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said that 98% of quotes and percentages you find on the internet are false.

I believe he did say that, but he was quoting from Kim Kardashian.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/wfb-9th-rules-bases-faction-changes.html

Some updated rumours over on Bell of Lost souls. Characters unable to join units? Warmachines on round bases and attached to units? Elite units have a size of 2-5? What do you think?

Definitely confirms everything others and I have heard. I'd put good money on this being close to the mark.

I heard a while back that most characters would basically be monsters in the new edition ala Glottkin to allow them to stand on their own two feet, whereas smaller generic characters like Runesmiths would be almost like a unit upgrades. Although I'm not entirely how that would work exactly. What ever does happen in the new game with characters, one thing I know for definite is that the 9th will have a large emphasis on special characters, old and new. When you've killed 90% of your old characters off you need to create a whole lot more to make up the numbers. This would fit with characters being their own units as suggested. For this reason I expect the new Phoenix model to survive into 9th but I haven't anything for sure.

The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.

I'd also like to clarify something I said a while back, I told you there would be less emphasis on gunpowder, which the internet seems to have taken to mean less guns. This was entirely my fault, for not explaining myself properly, but gunpowder will be going yes/sorta, but we'll still see ranged weaponry. This ranges weaponry will be more akin to stuff like; The LM Solar Engine, Skaven Warpstone Weaponry and the Empire Luminark, alot more magical in some respects.

Also, I said this in one of the 40k threads, but there is some Tzeentch stuff coming this year, which was later confirmed by Hastings. Hastings mentioned some Tzeentch 40k stuff which I hadn't heard about, but I'd put money on him being correct over me. Expect these to drop later in the year.

BoLS are right about the starter, which Harry told you all about eons ago, and new terrain is definitely coming to match the new range. I heard December time but I could be wrong.

 WhispererofTruth wrote:


The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.

While I'm willing to believe the rumors that 9th Edition will bring a lot of aesthetic changes to the ranges I don't understand the repeated reference to the End Times as having a new look. Through 5 books now the only factions to get new models have been Undead, Nurgle, Skaven and Khorne, right? The vast majority of the existing WHFB range have seen no new End Times models so if 9th Ed is definitely happening this year is GW going to have more than 5 End Times books this year too or are they just going to do a massive release wave when 9th drops?

Prestor Jon wrote:

 WhispererofTruth wrote:


The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.

While I'm willing to believe the rumors that 9th Edition will bring a lot of aesthetic changes to the ranges I don't understand the repeated reference to the End Times as having a new look. Through 5 books now the only factions to get new models have been Undead, Nurgle, Skaven and Khorne, right? The vast majority of the existing WHFB range have seen no new End Times models so if 9th Ed is definitely happening this year is GW going to have more than 5 End Times books this year too or are they just going to do a massive release wave when 9th drops?

Some of the stuff that makes up the new factions has already been released. Take the most recent Dwarf models for instance, notice how the aesthetic is more an evolution of the Dwarf aesethetic than one that fits in the older models, they have shoulder pads for instance.

 WhispererofTruth wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 WhispererofTruth wrote:


The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.

While I'm willing to believe the rumors that 9th Edition will bring a lot of aesthetic changes to the ranges I don't understand the repeated reference to the End Times as having a new look. Through 5 books now the only factions to get new models have been Undead, Nurgle, Skaven and Khorne, right? The vast majority of the existing WHFB range have seen no new End Times models so if 9th Ed is definitely happening this year is GW going to have more than 5 End Times books this year too or are they just going to do a massive release wave when 9th drops?

Some of the stuff that makes up the new factions has already been released. Take the most recent Dwarf models for instance, notice how the aesthetic is more an evolution of the Dwarf aesethetic than one that fits in the older models, they have shoulder pads for instance.

True. I hadn't picked up on that since most of the core troops stayed the same. Disconcerting that the plastic troops that tend to make up the bulk of existing WHFB armies will be left to whither on the vine while new look special units or special/core dual kits are released. If 9th Ed makes the bulk of my armies look out of place or left on the shelf in favor of small games played with new heros + elite units I'll probably leave WHFB and play something different.

 warboss wrote:
I don't think people on either side of the discussion should put so much faith into a rumor monger percentage. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said that 98% of quotes and percentages you find on the internet are false.

Herp a derp, pretre's a silly head.

I think he meant the "90% the same runour" rather than a rumour monger's accuracy dude..

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think he meant the "90% the same runour" rather than a rumour monger's accuracy dude..

Oh lol. Let me go edit that one.

I want a puppy!!!!


!@#$ it.

 Grot 6 wrote:
I want a puppy!!!!

!@#$ it.

Get a wiener dog and Frazzled will be your friend for life.