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If I'm reading the rules correctly you no longer require line of sight with the Vibrocannon.  So you just place it behind some good terran role to hit and draw a straight line from there.  If this is correct I might have to add a battery of 3 to my 2000 pt list. 

Sorry if this has been brought up already I couldn't locate any current threads concerning it. 

There was a thread on it.

IIRC the consensus was that it doesn't target a unit and you don't need LoS.

There's some additional technicalities related to a defect in the rules that suggests you can't pull any models as casualties (this technicality also applies to some types of barrage weapons), but I've been playing vibrocannons all over the place since the Eldar codex came out and nobody has ever given me a problem about shooting through terrain, hitting harlequins without a VoT roll, and whacking multiple vehicles with a single shot.

 

The Eldar Support Weapons are artillery and the rules for artillery say : Unless firing a barrage weapon, you need LOS to the target.

Vibrocannons are not barrage weapons.

And pray tell how do you draw line of sight to the 'target' when the rules for the vibro cannon say that you don't pick a 'target' in the first place?

B ut the rules for the Vibrocannon says you don't need a target, thus how can you need LoS?

Posted By Ghaz on 04/22/2007 7:08 PM

The Eldar Support Weapons are artillery and the rules for artillery say : Unless firing a barrage weapon, you need LOS to the target.
Vibrocannons are not barrage weapons.

And pray tell how do you draw line of sight to the 'target' when the rules for the vibro cannon say that you don't pick a 'target' in the first place?

Don't have my Eldar dex around ( new puppy) but from memory you choose a spot on the table and draw a line to it from the cannon.

So you have to have LOS to that spot.

From page 45 of Codex Eldar:


Sorry, but the rules don't say anything about having to see the spot on the table that you're measuring to or even anything about choosing a spot on the table at all.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/22/2007 7:27 PM
From page 45 of Codex Eldar:

When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction.

Sorry, but the rules don't say anything about having to see the spot on the table that you're measuring to or even anything about choosing a spot on the table at all.

So you would need LOS down that 36 inch path.

Otherwise, you are firing without knowing what you are shooting at. If the game were "real", you could hit your own units because you fired through a hill and didn't know what you were shooting at.

The rules on artillery are clear. Only barrage weapons can fire without LOS. I agree you can ignore VOT and target priority rolls but I disagree that you can fire indirectly.

 

 

Remember that the specific rules override the more general rules. So if anything that the vibro cannon rules say you shoudl do, happen to conflict with the main rule book, you disregard the main rule book rule.

No you do not. There are no rules that say that you do. You can draw your line in "...any direction...".

Posted By Ghaz on 04/22/2007 8:07 PM

So you would need LOS down that 36 inch path.

No you do not. There are no rules that say that you do. You can draw your line in "...any direction...".

Can a normal weapon shoot through terrain.

It doesn't matter if a 'normal' weapon can shoot through terrain or not. A vibro cannon is not a normal weapon. When it says "any direction" then that is what it means. If it required line of sight, then it would have said "any direction in line of sight".

Sazzlefrats has the right argument, and this has come up before: the specific vibrocannon rules in the Eldar codex override the general artillery rules in the main rulebook.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/22/2007 9:13 PM
It doesn't matter if a 'normal' weapon can shoot through terrain or not. A vibro cannon is not a normal weapon. When it says "any direction" then that is what it means. If it required line of sight, then it would have said "any direction in line of sight".

If it were meant to fire through terrain, then the rules would say that. Absent a permission in the rules set, the weapon still has to follow the general rules.

 

So a vibrocannon can fire in any direction, subject to LOS rules.

 

So the fact that the librarian power fury of the ancients works pretty much the same, and GW has expressly stated that no LOS is neccesarry, that dosn't do anything for you?

Still wrong. The rules say "... ANY DIRECTION..." and that is exactly what it means. There is your exception to the line of sight rules right there. If it has to be in line of sight, then it's not "... any direction..." is it?

Posted By Slyde on 04/23/2007 8:34 AM
So the fact that the librarian power fury of the ancients works pretty much the same, and GW has expressly stated that no LOS is neccesarry, that dosn't do anything for you?

Ignoring precedent is common.



According to the rules you must do the following:

• Roll to hit once for each vibrocannon in the battery
• if any of them hit, draw a single 3' line from any of the vibrocannons in the battery in any direction.
• Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits.

Fury of the ancients does not target a unit, and it has been faq'ed that it doesnt require line of sight either. You draw a line away from one base in any direction and any unit that the line passes through suffers D6 hits. Thats all there is to it.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/23/2007 8:46 AM

If it were meant to fire through terrain, then the rules would say that. Absent a permission in the rules set, the weapon still has to follow the general rules.

So a vibrocannon can fire in any direction, subject to LOS rules.

Still wrong. The rules say "... ANY DIRECTION..." and that is exactly what it means. There is your exception to the line of sight rules right there. If it has to be in line of sight, then it's not "... any direction..." is it?

I don't see how the words ANY DIRECTION = through terrain. Thats not an exception. It means you don't have to target any model/unit, you just trace the line. The weapon is thus still restricted by the artillery rules in the main rulebook.

 

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/23/2007 8:57 AM

The weapon is thus still restricted by the artillery rules in the main rulebook.

Only if you ignore the precedent set by Fury of the Ancients.

To put it another way, you have overlooked how the rules say "Any unit the line passes through, suffers d6 hits".

If it requires LOS, then how can "any unit the line passes through" suffer d6 hits, like the rules say?

You need LOS to target a unit. This weapon doesnt target a unit. This weapon causes d6 hits to any unit the line passes through, thus, L.O.S . IS NOT REQUIRED.

It means exactly what it says. Any means ANY. It does not mean "any except for" as you're making it out to be.

Ghaz, though I agree with your overall position. I do not feel that the part that makes the vibro ignore LOS is the "Any direction is ANY direction", I beleive its the "draw a 3' line, and ANY unit in the way takes d6 hits"

I haven't read anywhere in the main rule book that you must have LOS to draw a line :p I will admit however that drawing that line over a hill, under a tunnel and between trees can be difficult sometimes though (hehe)

Posted By Hellfury on 04/23/2007 8:50 AM

Posted By Slyde on 04/23/2007 8:34 AM
So the fact that the librarian power fury of the ancients works pretty much the same, and GW has expressly stated that no LOS is neccesarry, that dosn't do anything for you?

Ignoring precedent is common.
.

I would like to point out that many people using precedent as an argument are also the same people who screamed until they were red in the face when others tried to use precedent when disagreeing with the point being made. The usually argument goes along the lines of "you cannot use one codex rules to back up another army's codex".

Posted By Hellfury on 04/23/2007 8:50 AM

No where in the rules does it say through terrain. There maybe a hint.  There is nothing to say it breaks the normal rules and goes through terrain. what is to say that the rule is "You can draw it 36 inch's and it stops when it hits terrain". Any direction could just refer to direction not terrain impact - it doesn't strongly infer that it is "any direction ignoring terrain".

BTW, I think it should, but by a RAW thingy it doesn't seem to go that way.more crap rule writing.

In this case, precedent is important, due to how the rule is worded.
Lets look at the similarities:

Fury of the Ancients:


Vibrocannon:


The similarities are: (besides drawing a line from the "firing" model, and lacking a target)
Fury of the Ancients:  "Every unit in its path suffers" [damage]
Vibrocannon: "Any unit which the line passes through suffers" [damage]

Neither rule targets anything. Both rules draw a line away from the model that is "firing". Both rules are essentially identical to one another in these respects. FotA has been FAQed as not requiring Line of Sight, thus it may be safely assumed that the vibrocannon also doesnt require Line of Sight as well.

Posted By fullheadofhair on 04/23/2007 1:20 PM

 Any direction could just refer to direction not terrain impact - it doesn't strongly infer that it is "any direction ignoring terrain".

I am not the one arguing about the interpretation regarding "any direction". That is the realm of Ghaz's posit.

I still maintain that three posts above yours is the reason that LOS is not required.

Posted By Hellfury on 04/23/2007 9:01 AM

...If it requires LOS, then how can "any unit the line passes through" suffer d6 hits, like the rules say?

You need LOS to target a unit. This weapon doesnt target a unit. This weapon causes d6 hits to any unit the line passes through, thus, L.O.S . IS NOT REQUIRED.

Posted By General Hobbs on 04/22/2007 7:57 PM

Otherwise, you are firing without knowing what you are shooting at. If the game were "real", you could hit your own units because you fired through a hill and didn't know what you were shooting at.

As far as I'm aware, you can hit your own units with vibro cannons - it affects any unit it goes through. Of course in the 'real' world friendly fire from support elements beyond sight IS quite common. Heck it's even to common when in sight.

Posted By puree on 04/23/2007 1:55 PM

As far as I'm aware, you can hit your own units with vibro cannons 

Indeed, thats really the only difference between Fota and vibrocannons. Fota specifically states that you cannot hit your own units or close combat, while vibro cannons states that ANY unit may be hit.

Posted By Hellfury on 04/23/2007 1:27 PM
In this case, precedent is important, due to how the rule is worded.

Actually don't disagree with you on this, just find it ironic that when others have tries to use wording from other army books to justify an interpretation fro another army people have maintained that it is wrong to do so.

Posted By Hellfury on 04/23/2007 1:27 PM
I still maintain that three posts above yours is the reason that LOS is not required.

Posted By Hellfury on 04/23/2007 9:01 AM

...If it requires LOS, then how can "any unit the line passes through" suffer d6 hits, like the rules say?

You need LOS to target a unit. This weapon doesnt target a unit. This weapon causes d6 hits to any unit the line passes through, thus, L.O.S . IS NOT REQUIRED.

I agree. Line of sight is not needed. It will go straight through a vehicle or an enemy unit that normal blocks LOS. The rule seems to be clear on that. What it isn't clear on is if it goes through terrain and hits a unit behind a hill.

True. It isnt clear concerning vibrocannons and terrain, but then again, it isnt clear for FotA either.

While it is ruled that LOS is not needed for FotA, they dont say that you can draw the line through terrain either.

As you said, another crap rule, as well as a crap ruling/FAQ.

I'm not sure I understand the issue: The VC hits ANY unit on the line drawn from the weapon out 36", no LOS is needed and terrain doesn't block it. The VC doesn't follow any standard shooting rules so how is it limited by terrain or LOS?

Precedent isn't really applicable here. Heck, precedent is a dangerous and near-worthless thing with the Games Dev changing rules depending on which side of the bed they got up on.

In this case, the vibrocannon rules are pretty clear. You don't need to target a unit (this essentially tells you that the normal rules for firing a weapon are useless). Draw a line in any direction. No other restrictions are given.

Posted By Centurian99 on 04/23/2007 5:32 PM
Precedent isn't really applicable here. Heck, precedent is a dangerous and near-worthless thing with the Games Dev changing rules depending on which side of the bed they got up on.

I can agree with that. Especially after 3rd ed. with all the changes to ATSKNF and True Grit during that edition.