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It's been about half a year that the Eldar codex is out, and, at least from my own experience, I still think the assault phoenix lords and special characters (Yriel, Jain Zar, Karandras, and in a pinch, Maugan Ra) aren't worth the points. They're characterful, so I've been trying to fit them into a mech army (repeatedly), but really at a competitive level, I don't think they cut it.

How's everyone's experience versus this?

Even a SM squad with a hidden powerfist will beat Karandras over a few rounds of sustained combat with average rolls. That's pretty horrible unless you have a mindwarring farseer taking out every power fist, which isn't entirely realistic when there can be one in every squad. How many powerfists do you guys end up facing a game?

Anyways, very curious on everyone's thoughts on the competitive nature of these characters.

I don't understand what's so special about Phoenix Lords. Doesn't the same criticism you make apply to almost any CC character in any army?

How is a tac squad going to survive "a few rounds of sustained combat"? Karandras has 8 PF attacks on the charge (4-5 dead marines), and he shouldn't be charging in alone.

When it comes to some of the other characters, the odds are even better, because they'll be striking first. With Jain Zar, Maugan Ra or Yriel (or some good rolling or positioning with any of the others), it's quite possible that the character will empty out his personal killzone, which is all he or she needs to be entirely safe from reprisals. This is of course if they're charging, which they should be in a mech list; if they get charged, it will naturally be more difficult to empty the killzone, since they will be engaged with a lot more models.

I think Jain Zar is particularly nasty though for some reason she is the least expensive. Something has to be said for 5x S7 I10 power weapon attacks on the charge, after three S5 Ap2 shots that hit on 2+. Normally she will wipe out any model she is personally angaged with on the attack (or counter attack). So yes she can kill squads on her own, and laughs at hidden power fists.

The big problem is always getting them there, i mean, they aren't cheap to begin with, as soon as you start adding in transport etc, all for some-one who can be killed by 1 DS IG vet squad double tapping them with Plasma? And they are so great incombat they are gonna rip the enemy to pieces, but so can other, more cost effective, squads...

I think part of the problem with the analysis going on here is that for some reason people are assuming that the Phoenix Lords will be alone. They are independent characters so they can join other squads (unless those squads are other aspects) and even if they don't join other squads, you can only soot them if they are the closest model (so if they are just sitting in the middle of another squad, you can't shoot them). That, in and of itself, makes them rather resilient. The fact that they can't be insta-killed also helps a lot. Power fists and the like do not guarantee their doom.

Now all in all, I don?t find them to be worth their points, but then again I rarely find that big uber characters are worth their points. But it is necessary to point out that anyone who has these (or any other special character) running around by themselves is just asking to killed.

They are all fleet and fit in Falcons so getting there isn't a problem.

I have to totally disagree. They are fantastic tools. Karanadras should wipe out any marine squad he charges. He should be with a squad, as stated, adn be positioned so that he is not within 2" of a fist. Against normal marines he still has a 2+ save, that is more than adequate to keep him going.

Jain Zar is brutal, with a squad of banshees the main problem is not wiping out the enemy and getting shot to death the next turn.

Yriel hit on 3 and wounds on 2, and has a 4+ invul, disgusting In, and a nice speical attack, what else can you ask for?

I don tknow how you are using them, but its not terribly complex. Take a squad of 5 banshees and Jain Zar, put them in the neigh indestructible falcon, dirve forward, unload them, and they slaughter a unit. Pretty striaght forward IMO.

I agree with Recius but I just thought I'd chip in with my own thoughts on a fire magnet eldar unit.

I run a squad of 6 wraithgaurd on foot (all I have painted) with attached warlock with conceal.

Making this a body gaurd unit for Eldrad allows you to get eldrad right up into enemy lines as casting fortune on the unit each turn means that they can soak up an amazing amount of firpower. Heavy bolters wound on a 5 6 then you have a re rollable 3+ save!

I've only played it a couple of games at 1500pts but found it to be an amazing delivery system for Eldrad.

Eldrad needs a delivery system? Surely you're joking.

I must mention how much I adore both Karandas and Baharroth with Karandas nothing bad can be said abour 7 to 8 attacks on the charge at strength 5 or strength 8 power Fists, in an infilitrating squad, that has move through cover, and +1 cover save.

With Baharroth there is nothing funnier than charging a big nasty tank or annoying unit on your second turn, and then fleeing off the table to it your next turn, and him never getting to shoot them.

Krandras is pretty crap, as any IC that uses a fist will be. He can still rip it up if there's nothing in the target squad to take him out, but how likely is that?

Jain Zar is great. She goes first, she wipes out her killzone, she's in good shape. She's also got more than 6" movement (with FoF) which is critical to a good assault model. A good IC needs an invulnerable save, and she doesn't have one, that's her only downside. With her I, she's a good IC hunter.

Maugan Ra is also a good option, if a bit over diverse. His shooting is great, his assault is very solid, but you don't want to pay for both in one model. He's a good way to handle counter assault in a shooty army, I think.

I wouldn't mind "pay[ing] for both in one model" when it comes to Maugan Ra. He's maybe the second best PL in assault and arguably the best in shooting, yet is the second cheapest. I don't think you pay a premium for his two-in-one role at all.

I highly consider taking maugan Ra in my Dark Reapers+Wraithlord firebase set up. I mean he has a freakin rending shuriken cannon and very decent hth skills.

Overall, I'm very pleased with the outcome of the Phoenix Lords. They aren't that great but still viable if you want to field them (and are not forced to, due to competitive reasons).

Greets
Schepp himself

Don't forget that because of "eternal warriors" the can't be instakilled, so that adds a whole lot to their effectiveness when compared to other other ICs.

As has been mentioned several times here, the Phoenix Lords do in fact kick butt. But the problem (and this is where I find they are generaly crippled) is living though the shooting phase after they assault. It doesn't happen too often and that's really what keeps them (in my opinion) from being a good choice. The are sort of like fire dragons, they get to kill one target of their choice before they die, only they are more expensive.

Surely that depends on what the rest of your entire army is doing?

I am not so sure about Mauran Ra. The Maugetar is a nice weapon, but Jain Zar has the same for less and better supporting skills.

When it comes to the weapon having a pinning assault cannon with scythe attachment is all well and good but requiring 6's is great for rank and file harlies stealers and eight shots from a termie squad. However its not that goog coming from an IC. Why waste the Bs5 on a rending weapon, what Magan Ra needed was Ap3 (or better).

If you use Maugan Ra for shooting he wont make his points back. At his best he is a counterassult hero, commanding a shooty army, firing until the enemy gets close enough to be charged.

You're judging the Maugetar by pretty strange standards, Orlanth. If 8 shots from a termie squad is pwnage, surely 4 shots from some guy has to be, well, pretty all right? Nor is the BS5 wasted, since as you point out, not that many shots are going to rend, and it sure is nice to hit with the others!

Granted, Maugan Ra probably won't make his points back by shooting, but the yardstick of "making your points back" is really only appropriate for a unit that you expect to die. Now, if you're using Maugan Ra for just shooting (i.e. he never makes it into CC), it should be quite rare that he gets killed, him being an IC and all.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 06/29/2007 7:33 PM
Eldrad needs a delivery system? Surely you're joking.

I prefer Eldrad to be in a position to use as many powers as he can each turn.

This way he can sit roughly 18" from the enemy and use pretty much any power he pleases.

Never underestimate the power of the fast shot and crack shot exarch powers.
But your points are valid, for the hefty price tag maugan is bringing, he's still not a super fast assault monster or a shooting army of death on his own.

I like that the Dark reaper squad in cover now becomes pretty hard to tackle with assault troops. +They are fearless with him.

I think the main reason I like him the most is, that he perfectly fits into my army style. The other Phoenix lords doesn't appeal to me at all.Go figure...

Greets
Schepp himself

Brother Bartius: Okay, fair enough, but I'm not sure I'd call it a delivery system, since you aren't really delivering him anywhere (at least in the sense of delivering a payload). Personally, I'd rather use two squads of Guardians than 5 WG w/ Warlock as an Eldrad-preservation measure, what with all the rending going on these days.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 07/05/2007 1:39 PM
Brother Bartius: Okay, fair enough, but I'm not sure I'd call it a delivery system, since you aren't really delivering him anywhere (at least in the sense of delivering a payload). Personally, I'd rather use two squads of Guardians than 5 WG w/ Warlock as an Eldrad-preservation measure, what with all the rending going on these days.

Sorry should've explained myself better however I'd still rather have a wraithgaurd unit protecting Edrad than 2 Gaurdian squads.

With the combination of additional toughness and a re-rollable 3+ sv as well as the 5++ that the gaurdians also receive, much more survivable.

It'd take a lot of rending/shooting to get through all that. Just MHO.

The lack of invulnerable saves is meaningless when you are dealing with dread axe princes, C'tan, and Pariah. Jain Zar should wipe out every normal trooper in her kill zone if you set up the assault correctly and should be putting around two wounds on any IC in the first round of combat. Tooled up SM ICs are really the only group that poses a threat, and with eldar you should see that coming.

Brother Bartius, granted, it would take a lot of shooting, but would it take a lot of rending? Not really. A standard Harlequin squad would cause 4 rends on the charge, and Conceal won't help you there.

This is getting kind of off-topic, though. Maybe someone should start another thread on whether WG are viable.

Posted By Durandal on 07/06/2007 7:39 PM
The lack of invulnerable saves is meaningless when you are dealing with dread axe princes, C'tan, and Pariah. Jain Zar should wipe out every normal trooper in her kill zone if you set up the assault correctly and should be putting around two wounds on any IC in the first round of combat. Tooled up SM ICs are really the only group that poses a threat, and with eldar you should see that coming.

The rest of your post made sense, but did you just suggest that you might face Pariahs?  Surely if you're facing Pariahs your main concern is making sure the kid doesn't cry or break your figures, not any tactical considerations.

Posted By Mannahnin on 07/10/2007 10:38 PM

The rest of your post made sense, but did you just suggest that you might face Pariahs?  Surely if you're facing Pariahs your main concern is making sure the kid doesn't cry or break your figures, not any tactical considerations.

QFT

To answer earlier comments, immunity to instant kill is far more valuable than an invulnerable save, and gets better the more wounds you have. Each and every wound the Phoenix Lord has must be taken away one at a time. An Autarch or Farseer will die outright to a S6 attack if they fail their 50% invulnerable save.

Well, it probably is more valuable, but is it really far more valuable? There are a lot of hidden fists in the game, granted, but there are also a lot of power weapons, rending, etc. Lacking an inv save isn't cirppling, true, but I don't think it should be dismissed.

It's a pity the only PL with an inv save is also the one with the worst weaponry. (Well, second worst.)

It's 3:00 am and I'm bored and feeling smart-assy so here's my 2c

1) Jain Zar epitomizes what Pheonix Lords should be able to do. What you want to do is get her and her Banshees spread out across two or three squads (fleeting, she probably can't shoot her wicked gun) and then when the smoke settles at least one squad will still be around and all of the banshees surround it, still stuck in combat. Never attack only one marine squad with a full squad of Banshees. You want to keep as many squads as possible tied up in close combat getting Eldar-ified.

2) Maugan Ra is cool. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool, a madman, or both. He has a 36" range (admittedly AP5) Assault Cannon that causes pinning and ignores cover saves, and he kicks ass in close combat at WS7 and S6. Admittedly if you want to get the most for his points you need to get him into combat but he definately fits well in a fire base type army where the enemy is coming to you and you're outshooting him. Even when you're facing Guard and Tau he can fleet up the table and rip it up. Versatile.

3) Karandaras is cool. He can replace an Exarch in a Scorpion squad saving some points. He has a relative weakness against power weapons and other powerfists but against MEQ lacking in those he can move-fleet-assault by himself and attack a squad seperate from the Scorpion squad he infiltrated into combat. Against 5+ or worse he can rip it up with his S5 chainsword and you can make wrrr-wrrr noises.

4) Baharroth is ... OK. He might be a little pricey considering he's only S4. He comes with his own grenade pack. If you REALLY like hawks you can take him with a 10 man squad and really lay down the 24" shooting while fearless. Personally I think he's a waste of points just because I wouldn't get him into combat until late in the game and for that amount of points you're better off with something 'getting it's points back' or rather 'filling an effective battlefield role' earlier in the game. The grenade packs are effective against Guard, potentially forcing morale checks early in the game.

5) Asurmen is ... OK. He's a survivor. The Diresword works in reverse to a force weapon where they have to fail their own morale check, which sucks. His role is to walk up with his Dire Avengers, shoot, get shot, bladestorm, assault, hopefully play a role winning the game for you. He better considering he's 230 points. If you bring him you don't really need an Exarch so you save some points. You can also include a 10 man squad + him in a Wave Serpent to really lay it on. I might actually try him some day.

6) Feugan used to be my favorite when he had Fast Shot and two shots with his Fire Pike. Now he's just kind of 'meh'. He can take out a tank with a lucky shot but so can alot of other things more reliably for the same points cost. For instance, a squad of Fire Dragons. He's S5 in combat making him OK. He's somewhat wasted leading a squad of Fire Dragons which do pretty well on their own. Makes for sick-ass themed armies if you like taking 3x squads of Fire Dragons with Wave Serpents. Again, pity he lost the Fast Shot.

1) Charging three squads is great if your opponent is an idiot or likes to lose. Two is more workable.

3) Karandras can't Infiltrate his squad into combat. You can't join a squad before the game, and the Scorpions will have to deploy before him.