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 DeathReaper wrote:
"If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds" Page 43.

You have to check if it is a Swarm when the unit suffers an unsaved Wound to be able to apply the rule.

I don't see the word unit in that rule.
Am I missing it? Would you mind bolding it for me?
Also, can you show me where units suffer unsaved wounds? I don't see that in the shooting rules - I see that the Wound Pool is populated though. Are those the same thing?

And your sentence is right - you would have to check to see if the models in the unit have the Swarm rule to apply it.
Now, find permission to apply it at that phase instead of after allocation, which is when the Swarm (model) suffers an unsaved wound.
Right now your argument is that you must check because the unit has Swarm and you know the unit has Swarm because you've checked. Awfully circular logic there.

Ok, I really can't understand how this is still being argued. Lets go from the top of Page 15, and work from there, with some citations from the Blast & Large Blast rule along with the Swarms and Instant Death rules.

Step 1. To determine how many casualties are caused, you will need to allocate the wounds caused and resolve any saving throws the target is allowed.

So, 4 wounds are being resolved, and at 4 models in the unit, since a quick look back through the rules for a blast template shows that you don't even have to roll for those exact models under the template. However, it is still 4 models.

Step 2. Roll To-Wound for the 4 models you have hit, and then tally up the successful To-Wound rolls into your wound pool. Lets say they made all 4 To-Wound Rolls.

Step 3. The target unit gets to make 4 saving throws for the 4 wounds being resolved. Now, from the Allocate Wounds section, it says that you first allocate a wound from the wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit. Now, the wound pool for a blast weapon that has wounded 4 models is 4. So, we can interpret that "resolved" is interchangeable with "allocate".

Step 4. The target unit gets to make 1 savings throw for each wound that has been allocated to it from the wounds pool. (Repeat Step 5 for each wound individually, and once done, the Wounds Pool is empty, and the next shooting attack can begin.)

Step 5. Now, combine Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties with Take Saves and Remove Casualties. Since the Armor Penetration has bypassed the armor save of the Ripper Swarms, they have no saves, and all 4 wounds have now become Unsaved Wounds. It is at this point that the Swarms Universal Special Rule takes affect, because the model in question has suffered an Unsaved Wound. Now, because it does not say that Special Rules take place in any order or that any single player can dictate which special rule occurs first, it must be assumed that all Special Rules take place at the exact same time. So, the Ripper Swarm model takes 1 Unsaved Wound. Simultaneously, the Swarm and the Instant Death Universal Special Rules take effect, dealing the model 2 wounds and instantly killing the model due to double wounding.

Now, to recap exactly how that happens, The single Unsaved Wound is dealt, however it is doubled to 2 unsaved wounds due to the fact that the Swarm rule takes any single wound and doubles it. It does not specify that you take each wound one at a time. It is here that the Instant Death rule kicks in on the two wounds dealt to it and kills it automatically.

So, I will gladly rescind my earlier statement that you cannot allocate wounds to models not under the template. In fact, I will now use this loophole with reckless abandon. I will also rescind my earlier step by step instruction in favor of this more detailed format. My apologies.

And your more detailed format is still wrong.

Hit unit.
Populate wound pool.
Make armor saves.
Allocate wounds to models.

You've allocated twice, made saves after allocation, and allocated wounds without resolving them all first. Full. Of. Fail.

Cite the rules that prove me wrong. I literally copied the entire sequence for wounding. I only allocated my wounds once, and that was after all 4 to-wound rolls succeeded, because it was written that you must allocate wounds at that point.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Cite the rules that prove me wrong. I literally copied the entire sequence for wounding. I only allocated my wounds once, and that was after all 4 to-wound rolls succeeded, because it was written that you must allocate wounds at that point.

After rereading what you wrote, you have the most confusing presentation I've ever read. Seriously.

Also, your step 4 you say the wound pool is empty but you have not resolved any of the wounds. This is impossible.
You must fully resolve a wound before allocating the next.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Cite the rules that prove me wrong. I literally copied the entire sequence for wounding. I only allocated my wounds once, and that was after all 4 to-wound rolls succeeded, because it was written that you must allocate wounds at that point.

After rereading what you wrote, you have the most confusing presentation I've ever read. Seriously.

Also, your step 4 you say the wound pool is empty but you have not resolved any of the wounds. This is impossible.
You must fully resolve a wound before allocating the next.

I see what you meant on step 4. I rushed in my typing and just skipped to just writing it all together and forgot to mention it's rinse and repeat. Fixed that for you. And yes, I know it's confusing, but that is literally the entire wounding phase, with all parts added. No tailoring or anything. I combined what went together, and put it in order as written. You realize how hard it was to write all that, and with that capacity of coherency? I've seen soap operas more straightforward.

The problem is that you can't put both sections together of standard rules and the Same Save method. Once a wound has been allocated you have no permission to take the wound off the model. Allocation moves the Wound from the pool to the Model.

Normal Shooting
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
5a. Allocate to closest model
5b. Take Saving Throw
5c. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5d. Continue allocating Wounds from the Wound pool to the next closest model

Same Save Method
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & remove Casualties
5a. Identify Save of entire unit by comparing all models
5b. Rolls Saves for entire unit, Wound pool becomes Unsaved Wounds of those remaining
5c. Allocate unsaved wound to closest model
5d. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5e. Continue allocating Wounds from the Wound pool to the next closest model

The Same Save method allows you to check the entire unit for Armour Saves only. A model does not suffer an unsaved wound till it is allocated to it. By doubling the wounds in the unsaved wound pool due to a rule found on models only you are altering how the rule itself works. The Same Save section does not give you permission to check for rules before allocation nor does it state that a model has been wounded before allocation. It simply tells you to roll saves before allocation which allows you to speed up the game.

@Gravmyr

Signed. That means that ID as well as Swarm rule triggers after step 5c for mixed saves and 5d for same saves. After a specific model suffered a wound (got his wounds characteristic reduced by 1).

Making the doubled wound jump to the next model, because somehow it found out that the first one was ID is breaking the rules x 2:

1. Wounds don't jump over from 1 model to another. They are allocated from the wound pool to a specific model and then applied there

2. ID does not happen before doubling

Gravmyr wrote:
The problem is that you can't put both sections together of standard rules and the Same Save method. Once a wound has been allocated you have no permission to take the wound off the model. Allocation moves the Wound from the pool to the Model.

Normal Shooting
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
5a. Allocate to closest model
5b. Take Saving Throw
5c. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5d. Allocate to next closest

Same Save Method
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot
2. Choose Target
3. Roll to Hit
4. Roll to Wound populating Wound Pool
5. Allocate Wounds & remove Casualties
5a. Identify Save of entire unit by comparing all models
5b. Rolls Saves for entire unit, Wound pool becomes Unsaved Wounds of those remaining
5c. Allocate unsaved wound to closest model
5d. Reduce Wounds on Model by one and remove as casualty if reduced to 0 wounds
5e. Allocate to next closest

The Same Save method allows you to check the entire unit for Armour Saves only. A model does not suffer an unsaved wound till it is allocated to it. By doubling the wounds in the unsaved wound pool due to a rule found on models only you are altering how the rule itself works. The Same Save section does not give you permission to check for rules before allocation nor does it state that a model has been wounded before allocation. It simply tells you to roll saves before allocation which allows you to speed up the game.

For the same save method you'll note in 5A, you've compared all the models to figure out their saves. Logically this will find the swarm rule, and any other rules that could influence the saves. ie armor, invuln, cover, stealth, KFF's, etc. Then for 5b you even acknowledge you have unsaved wounds in the pool. So you can see how the wounds would be doubled in the unsaved wound pool. You have the right procedure, just the wrong conclusion.

For mixed saves shooting, you'll note the swarm rule creates a second unsaved wound, it doesn't create unsaved wounds (2). So after finishing 5c with the first wound, you'll note there is still a unsaved wound to be dealt with.

Where is your permission to look for special rules in addition to saves?

The only thing you have permission to compare is saves. Since KFF, armor, invulnerable, cover, etc. all bestow saves you'll find the save, but the source of the save isnt relevant.

Edit: as for the mixed save "issue" you pointed out, you're incorrect. It doesn't create another unsaved wound.
The Swarm rule doubles the wound suffered by the model. Instead of subtracting 1, you subtract 2.
Even if your assumption was correct, where is the permission to move it back into the wound pool - the original wound was allocated and therefore cannot be in the wound pool.

rigeld2 wrote:
Where is your permission to look for special rules in addition to saves?

The only thing you have permission to compare is saves. Since KFF, armor, invulnerable, cover, etc. all bestow saves you'll find the save, but the source of the save isnt relevant.

Edit: as for the mixed save "issue" you pointed out, you're incorrect. It doesn't create another unsaved wound.
The Swarm rule doubles the wound suffered by the model. Instead of subtracting 1, you subtract 2.
Even if your assumption was correct, where is the permission to move it back into the wound pool - the original wound was allocated and therefore cannot be in the wound pool.

Again, you're just wrong. And you still need to address all the other issues your assumptions create.

"multiplies to two unsaved wounds." see that you know have 2 unsaved wounds. It created a second unsaved wound. That second unsaved wound will need to be allocated after the first unsaved wound has been completely resolved. The primary wound causes ID to the model, the second unsaved wound now needs to be allocated. As swarm caused a new wound, You now note the new unsaved wound. or quote me a rule that says wounds just disappear without being allocated while models in the unit are still visible.

And how do you know which rules for the model to use in a unit? You have to read them all to see if they're relevant. So in the process of figuring out the save we also notice the swarm rule and all other special rules. Or is stealth just ignored as well, How do you know if a model in the unit has stealth? wouldn't that be the same way you know a model in the unit has swarm?

I'm sure you can quote me the rule that says you only have permission to only check for special rules that influence saves.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Again, you're just wrong. And you still need to address all the other issues your assumptions create.

Problems? What haven't I addressed?

"multiplies to two unsaved wounds." see that you know have 2 unsaved wounds. It created a second unsaved wound. That second unsaved wound will need to be allocated after the first unsaved wound has been completely resolved. The primary wound causes ID to the model, the second unsaved wound now needs to be allocated. As swarm caused a new wound, You now note the new unsaved wound. or quote me a rule that says wounds just disappear without being allocated while models in the unit are still visible.

So it's multiplied after being allocated, right? Why are you trying to allocate a wound that is not in the wound pool?
It's resolved - it is applied to the model before its IDed.

And how do you know which rules for the model to use in a unit? You have to read them all to see if they're relevant. So in the process of figuring out the save we also notice the swarm rule and all other special rules. Or is stealth just ignored as well, How do you know if a model in the unit has stealth? wouldn't that be the same way you know a model in the unit has swarm?

Stealth modifies cover saves. What relevance does Swarm have to do with saves - the only thing you're asked to look at?

I'm sure you can quote me the rule that says you only have permission to only check for special rules that influence saves.

The fact that the rules are based solely on saves and not "saves and special rules" means you're only allowed to look at saves (and therefore things that modify those saves). Applying literally anything but rules that have to do with saves means you're doing something without permission - ie you're breaking the rules.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Again, you're just wrong. And you still need to address all the other issues your assumptions create.

"multiplies to two unsaved wounds." see that you know have 2 unsaved wounds. It created a second unsaved wound. That second unsaved wound will need to be allocated after the first unsaved wound has been completely resolved. The primary wound causes ID to the model, the second unsaved wound now needs to be allocated. As swarm caused a new wound, You now note the new unsaved wound. or quote me a rule that says wounds just disappear without being allocated while models in the unit are still visible.

And how do you know which rules for the model to use in a unit? You have to read them all to see if they're relevant. So in the process of figuring out the save we also notice the swarm rule and all other special rules. Or is stealth just ignored as well, How do you know if a model in the unit has stealth? wouldn't that be the same way you know a model in the unit has swarm?

I'm sure you can quote me the rule that says you only have permission to only check for special rules that influence saves.

Cite the source that allows you to take the 2nd wound on its own. The rules for wound allocation make no includes for doubled wound effects. It strictly states the case for single wound allocations. The Swarms special rule states that when taking 1 wound, you instead take 2. In fact, it implies that you take both at the exact same time. In which case, you have taken (2) unsaved wounds, and the Instant Death rule would kick in upon the resolving of those wounds, killing it.

Now, to commment on your little new unsaved wound thing, let me ask you this. Where is the rule that states that this magic unsaved wound, that never originated from the Wound Pool, can be resolved. If you are interpretting the rules like that, then you literally can not resolve that second wound due to the fact that it is not a "True" Unsaved wound, and because there are no rules dictating that this wound goes back to the wound pool, it cannot be resolved as normal. In fact, the only precedent that I could compare this to would be the results of a completed challenge, where any extra wounds caused would not be relocated back into the rest of the assualt, and would have no effect on resolution.

That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.

Where under the cover save rules do you get permission to check models for stealth? oh ya you don't. so I guess models can't grant stealth to units then. Because you don't have permission to check for model based SR until they're allocated a wound.

Swarm modifies the unsaved wounds received by blast weapons so you would check those rules as soon as you have unsaved blast wounds.

Please quote the rule that says you can look for abilities that only affect saves.

You just have permission to make a saving throw if you have one. no where does it say to check for any special rules that may modify the save. so you play by what ever rules you're making up as you go along, and I'll stick to the rules I can actually read in the rule book.

sirlynchmob wrote:
That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.

That is not how it works...reread the rules for the wound pool. The wound pool is made up of your original successful To-Wound rolls. It is from there that you allocate wounds, reducing the number of wounds in that pool, to models, and only after the model fails the save roll, does a wound become an unsaved wound. An unsaved wound is never allowed into the wound pool, because it has already been resolved against a model. hence the fact that it is an Unsaved Wound, and not a wound. There is a huge difference. Wounds can become unsaved wounds, but unsaved wounds cannot become wounds.

sirlynchmob wrote:
That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

I have. The fact that you seem to ignore that isn't my problem.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

I believe I've responded to every post of yours and addressed everything. If you disagree either restate or requote.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.

There's a process for populating the wound pool. "Any unsaved wound" is not it.

Where under the cover save rules do you get permission to check models for stealth? oh ya you don't. so I guess models can't grant stealth to units then. Because you don't have permission to check for model based SR until they're allocated a wound.

You cannot ensure that every model has the same (or different) saves without looking for abilities or rules that modify saves.
Under your assertion not only would Stealth be broken, but pretty much and non-area terrain.

Swarm modifies the unsaved wounds received by blast weapons so you would check those rules as soon as you have unsaved blast wounds.

As soon as the model has, yes.

Please quote the rule that says you can look for abilities that only affect saves.

Page 15 where it separates mixed and same save units.

You just have permission to make a saving throw if you have one. no where does it say to check for any special rules that may modify the save. so you play by what ever rules you're making up as you go along, and I'll stick to the rules I can actually read in the rule book.

Please don't insult me, I haven't done so to you.
I'm not making anything up, I'm following the requirements of a permissive rules set.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
That might be how you play it, but I notice you didn't list any rules to back up your assumptions.

scroll back a page or two to the last time I addressed you to see some of the issues your assumptions creates.

you cause a new unsaved wound, wounds caused go into the pool. so a new unsaved wound would also be noted in the pool.

That is not how it works...reread the rules for the wound pool. The wound pool is made up of your original successful To-Wound rolls. It is from there that you allocate wounds, reducing the number of wounds in that pool, to models, and only after the model fails the save roll, does a wound become an unsaved wound. An unsaved wound is never allowed into the wound pool, because it has already been resolved against a model. hence the fact that it is an Unsaved Wound, and not a wound. There is a huge difference. Wounds can become unsaved wounds, but unsaved wounds cannot become wounds.

pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@rigeld2
in these 7 pages, you listed pg 15 twice in response to others, saying they're reading it wrong.

You like asking others to provide you actual rule quotes, yet you have yet to provide one. You state things as if they are rules, yet fail to provide any actual quotes.

Your method breaks stealth, because according to you from the random things you've posted throughout here, you don't check for SR that are model based until that model is allocated a wound. so if your unit just has 1 model with stealth, you don't get to check for it until it is allocated a wound.

so please show me the any rule that states you can only check models for special rules during allocation of wounds. or any rule that even allows you to check for a special rule.

This is not an insult or personal attack, I'm just pointing out you have yet to make a case for how you think the rules work. Because you can't claim RAW and not cite any rules.

It's because those rules are always in effect and modifying your cover saves. Even if you don't have a cover save you have the bonuses. The Same Save method only tells you to look at the saves and that is all. Again to understand why your interpretation is incorrect you have to understand the difference between a unit and a model rule in 40k.

Swarm USR reads "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved wound from blasts or a template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."

Functions "If a model with the Swarm USR fails a save against an allocated Wound or is allocated an unsaved Wound from blasts or a template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."

Your interpretation would have to read "If a unit that contains at least one model with Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from blasts or a template weapon add an additional Unsaved Wound to the wound pool."

If you can't see how the first two are read to say the same thing then there is a fault in the processing of the sentences. The Swarms USR never mentions doing anything at the unit level. The Same Save method only references calculating the save for the unit.

I listed a number of pages earlier that state that allocation comes before making a save and if you look at that as being the standard, outside of the Same Save method, you can then understand why you have to equate allocation with suffering. This goes to explain why under Invulnerable Saves it states you can only make one against a suffered wound. This explains why the FAQ states that only Wound suffered by a character in a challenge and not those left in the pool count toward combat resolution. pg 26 also states only Wounds suffered by enemy models count not wounds in excess of of a Model's Wounds characteristic. All of these things point toward suffered equating to allocated.

All of that being said, I see no assumptions on mine or rigeld2's part. We read the Same Save method as giving you permission to make your saves, calculated to be the same, before you allocate. Then you allocate and move on. I do see that you are making an assumption that you consult the rest of the models rules and apply them as well.

@ Nazdreg I didn't actually put in the doubling or ID in that list just showed how it works. You are right they happen at the same time at the points mentioned and they don't jump, a swarm now has 2 unsaved wounds allocated to it both causing ID. No where in Swarms does it say to add an unsaved Wound to the pool but that one that is already somewhere else becomes 2. I think I see what you are getting at though and will repair.

To make a comparison that I hope will help: I have an agreement with a corporation that they will match any donation to a charity that I make. I make a $5 donation then they make a $5 donation to the same charity. They do not give me another $5 to donate to a different charity.

Gravmyr wrote:
It's because those rules are always in effect and modifying your cover saves. Even if you don't have a cover save you have the bonuses. The Same Save method only tells you to look at the saves and that is all. Again to understand why your interpretation is incorrect you have to understand the difference between a unit and a model rule in 40k.

so you can provide a rule that states only some SR are always in effect at all times, and others are not?

sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.

Beautiful quote. Now, show me the special rule that says that you can send an Unsaved Wound to the Wound Pool. Next, show me the exact wording that says that when a wound is doubled, you take each one separately, instead of together and doubled, like it implies. Unless a person can show those two rules, you can not do it, because it is not allowed under Rules as Written.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.

Beautiful quote. Now, show me the special rule that says that you can send an Unsaved Wound to the Wound Pool. Next, show me the exact wording that says that when a wound is doubled, you take each one separately, instead of together and doubled, like it implies. Unless a person can show those two rules, you can not do it, because it is not allowed under Rules as Written.

You quoted me quoting the rule. Swarm allows you to bend the main rule and do just that.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
pg 32 "whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule"

so based on that and the creation of a new unsaved wound from a special rule we can either send it to the pool, or just resolve it after the first wound.

Beautiful quote. Now, show me the special rule that says that you can send an Unsaved Wound to the Wound Pool. Next, show me the exact wording that says that when a wound is doubled, you take each one separately, instead of together and doubled, like it implies. Unless a person can show those two rules, you can not do it, because it is not allowed under Rules as Written.

You quoted me quoting the rule. Swarm allows you to bend the main rule and do just that.

No it does not. Swarm says that you take 2 wounds at the exact same time, not 1. It also does not mention anywhere in the rule that an extra unsaved wound can be regulated back to the wound pool. To put it another way, because there are no extra wounds because both are issued at the exact same time, there is no extra wound. And it still wouldn't regulate it back to the wound pool.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:


No it does not. Swarm says that you take 2 wounds at the exact same time, not 1. It also does not mention anywhere in the rule that an extra unsaved wound can be regulated back to the wound pool.

Perhaps you should reread the rule. It does not state you "take 2 wounds at the exact same time." Your interpreting the sentence to mean what you think it should. If it said what you claim, this discussion would have been over on page 1.

Fragile wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:


No it does not. Swarm says that you take 2 wounds at the exact same time, not 1. It also does not mention anywhere in the rule that an extra unsaved wound can be regulated back to the wound pool.

Perhaps you should reread the rule. It does not state you "take 2 wounds at the exact same time." Your interpreting the sentence to mean what you think it should. If it said what you claim, this discussion would have been over on page 1.

With how rules are, they act as written unless specified. Because they do not explicitely say that you resolve the individual wound as 2 separate unsaved wounds, you cannot simply assume that you can do that. What the rule does say is that when a unsaved wound is dealt, it is multiplied to 2. So, while you do have 1 unsaved wound initially, when you come to the step of removing wounds from a model, you instead remove 2 wounds instead of 1.

The Swarms USR says so it's self: The first word is if. The Stealth and shrouded have no conditional equivalent and state in their rules that they are always active.

The rule is not 100% clear either way, as the Swarm rules state: "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound from a Blast, Large Blast o are Template weapon, each unsaved Wound is multiplied to two unsaved Wounds."

The BRB does not specify what they mean when they say "If a Swarm suffers an unsaved Wound"

What is their definition of a Swarm suffering an Unsaved Wound?

It could be when a model with the swarm rule is allocated a wound.

It could be when a unit with the swarm rule fails a save.

We have no way of knowing, So in this case I think it is best to wait for the FaQ to solidify it. Until then we should take the least advantageous interpretation.

Does the Swarms USR reference units or the Wound pool at all? The rule itself only mentions a Swarm and USR's only belong to models unless they specifically state they affect the unit. I have shown you where a Model has the Swarms USR not units. I have also shown that suffering requires allocation. It would be inconsistent to say that it applies one way during one type of save method and another the other, via mine and rigeld2's method it is applied uniformly across all save type situations. And who's side would be the least advantageous? The one where the closest model takes two simultaneous unsaved wound and if they are ID you remove that model or the one where you get to remove two bases one a single hit?

Gravmyr wrote:
Does the Swarms USR reference units or the Wound pool at all?

Yes it references units as per P. 7

"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40,000 codex." Page 7 BRB

P. 55 Tyranid Codex Ripper Swarm Entry "Special rules:... Feed, Fearless, Swarms."

A Ripper Swarms Unit has the Swarms Special Rule.

So Swarms does indeed apply to the unit.

Gravmyr wrote:
I have also shown that suffering requires allocation.

For same save units this is not true, as per P.15

Gravmyr wrote:
And who's side would be the least advantageous? The one where the closest model takes two simultaneous unsaved wound and if they are ID you remove that model or the one where you get to remove two bases one a single hit?

Least advantageous is always for the player with the rule. In this case the one with the Swarms rule.

pg 32 under what special rules do I have:
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant entry in it's codex."

Also pg 7 the beginning of the paragraph that line is taken from says "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 15 has no reference to suffering at all.

Both unit's have a USR in this case a blast and the Swarms rule.

Gravmyr wrote:
pg 32 under what special rules do I have:
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule. Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant entry in it's codex."

Also pg 7 the beginning of the paragraph that line is taken from says "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models..."

So they use model and unit interchangeably.

So my point still stands.

Pg 15 has no reference to suffering at all.

Both unit's have a USR in this case a blast and the Swarms rule.

Sorry not 15, it is on P. 16 Armor saves section

"If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour[sic] fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound." P. 16

After you fail an armor save you suffer an unsaved wound. P.15 says you take saves before allocation for same save units.