Why I don't like Disneys Star Wars films.

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**-Shrike-**

Wyzilla wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Wasn't there one of the classes in Battlefront which had flamethrowers? Or was it only Boba Fett?

You're thinking of the Force Unleashed and Clone Wars.

No, definitely Battlefront.

There weren't any in Battlefront. Bothan Spies had a reskinned flamer, but it was a "disintegrator" and vaporized people.

Boba Fett (and possible Jango) definitely had a flamethrower in Battlefront.

**Wyzilla**

-Shrike- wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Wyzilla wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Wasn't there one of the classes in Battlefront which had flamethrowers? Or was it only Boba Fett?

You're thinking of the Force Unleashed and Clone Wars.

No, definitely Battlefront.

There weren't any in Battlefront. Bothan Spies had a reskinned flamer, but it was a "disintegrator" and vaporized people.

Boba Fett (and possible Jango) definitely had a flamethrower in Battlefront.

Those were heroes restricted to specific maps. They weren't general classes available in the game.

**Mr Morden**

The other issue that's different in the SW universe is that in our history - most rebellions are actually supported by other powers who are actively or secretly fighting the ruling power - for instance the American Revolotion would not haev succeeded without the massive French support against their old enemy.

**Grey Templar**

Mr Morden wrote:
The other issue that's different in the SW universe is that in our history - most rebellions are actually supported by other powers who are actively or secretly fighting the ruling power - for instance the American Revolotion would not haev succeeded without the massive French support against their old enemy.

This isn't true.

French help accelerated the revolution, but it wasn't responsible for its success. The British were already massively overextended across the globe and were losing. It just made the rebellion's success inevitable instead of probable.

The real reason for the Rebellion's success was Britain was going into huge debt to take back the colonies and the war was unpopular with the citizens whose votes actually counted.

By the time the rebellion was over, England was the equivalent of over £40 billion in debt(todays money)

**sebster**

Grey Templar wrote:
The real reason for the Rebellion's success was Britain was going into huge debt to take back the colonies and the war was unpopular with the citizens whose votes actually counted.

Sort of. It was certainly a factor, but the UK has fought far costlier wars for much longer. Nor was the UK the only nation that plunged in to debt over the conflict (and the French Indian Wars before then), and they all carried on, with military not economic defeat leading each to abandon their various causes. And money was an even more serious issue for the United States, a problem they relieved largely through loans from France.

Had those loans not been made, and had the French not committed to contesting British naval blockades, I don’t think we can conclude US victory was ‘probable’.

By the time the rebellion was over, England was the equivalent of over £40 billion in debt(todays money)

Heh, if the UK had debt of £40 billion today they'd have fits of joy.

**Co'tor Shas**

nevermind I'm n idiot

**timetowaste85**

You expect a government that spans the Galaxy to be toppled in a short period of time? A Moff can rise up. The rebellion is weakened, and part of the plot has been believed that Luke turns (and may have created an apprentice in the 25 years time, imagine that!!). We don't have enough fact, just lots of snippets. Abrams loves Star Wars. I expect him to do that love justice.

**Grey Templar**

I don't think Luke has turned. All the desire for that seems way over blown and wishful thinking, no evidence to support it.

I can totally believe that he has had apprentices turn to the dark side

**Manchu**

Hard to imagine his motive for falling to the dark side. It would have to be something totally new, I guess.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Grey Templar wrote:
I don't think Luke has turned. All the desire for that seems way over blown and wishful thinking, no evidence to support it.

I can totally believe that he has had apprentices turn to the dark side

I kind of agree here... I mean, even in the EU, Luke's turning (and returning) were very dramatic, but overall seemed like a short blip on the galactic radar.

Though, in the case of Ep. 7, I get a feeling that Rylo or whatever his name is, isn't a former apprentice of Luke's but something that is as close to an actual Sith as we can get, unless there's a "Force Unleashed" type of plot introduced somewhere in the upcoming movie (as in, Kylo was a secret apprentice to Vader before his death, and he's spent the intervening years hunting down Sidious' knowledge horde, etc)

**Grey Templar**

Yeah, it makes more sense for a spontaneous Sith to arise given the canon nature of the force.

Someone with power in the force is born, the Dark Side is drawn to them, it tells them the location of some ancient Sith knowledge cache or facility, and that person becomes the next Sith lord.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Pretty much everything in the Galaxy is just a pawn in the never ending struggle between the Jedi and the Sith. The light and dark side of the force.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Honestly thinking of the Rebellion against the Empire in the context of a single world's warfare is not using a very accurate model.

The Empire certainly has political and administrative control over larger portions of the Galaxy, but we're shown at several points that it's not all, and even within the blanket of that control there are large factions, entire worlds and groups of the same that are reluctant members, or under Imperial control mostly in name, or are in open/passive rebellion. (Mon Calamari, Bothuwi and Alderaan for example).

**Ensis Ferrae**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
(Mon Calamari, Bothuwi and Alderaan for example).

Alderaan is kind of a bad example, since they don't get to rebel for very long

**Grey Templar**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Honestly thinking of the Rebellion against the Empire in the context of a single world's warfare is not using a very accurate model.

The Empire certainly has political and administrative control over larger portions of the Galaxy, but we're shown at several points that it's not all, and even within the blanket of that control there are large factions, entire worlds and groups of the same that are reluctant members, or under Imperial control mostly in name, or are in open/passive rebellion. (Mon Calamari, Bothuwi and Alderaan for example).

Indeed, the Empire had a tenuous hold at best. Likely due to the vast bulk of its forces being engaged simply occupying its massive territory. Only a relatively small portion was free to go on the offensive. And even then, the areas they did control were never under total domination.

There is also the limitations of Hyperspace travel. Certain areas of the Galaxy are difficult to access, like Mon Calimari.

Most likely what happened was the following,

After the Emperor died, the remaining leaders voluntarily abandoned certain systems so they could concentrate their forces in important areas. This would see the rebels quickly gain a bunch of systems and reestablish the republic, but those that did remain Imperial would have much more troops defending them, and the Empire would have far more troops to dedicate to offensive operations. Thus easily leading to a long drawn out war that isn't going to end any time soon.

So something like this: Say the Empire previously occupied 10 worlds. They pull back from 5 of them and use half the excess troops to strengthen garrisons and the other half to add to their offensive operations. And if those 5 worlds weren't super important anyway you come out ahead.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
(Mon Calamari, Bothuwi and Alderaan for example).

Alderaan is kind of a bad example, since they don't get to rebel for very long

Approximately two decades or so.

And Grey, my understanding says it's slightly more control then that, but less then what most people assume. For example the Outer Rim worlds like Tatooine had some Stormtroopers and officials, but as long as taxes were paid, not much of a gak was given. Alien worlds were either ignored completely or enslaved (Sullust and Kashyyyk)

I think what really bothers me, is how even in the movies the Empire is described. Not in terms of power but in terms of culture. This isn't an issue with The Mouse, so much as an issue with Lucas. The Clone Wars don't begin till 22 BBY thanks to the Prequel series, and the New Order is declared and Order 66 is issued 19 BBY. In that time frame the Empire has to finish exterminating the Jedi, consolidate it's power, reorganize itself and the massive bureaucracy under it's control, establish widespread alien discrimination to the point of it seeming generational, build a massive fleet of Star Destroyers and the Death Star, and give Ewan Mcgregor enough time to start looking like Sir Alec Guinness and spend a stupid amount of time on Tatooine enough to A. be part of local lore and B. be presumed dead some years back, so he can die in 0 BBY. (So Palpatine was Emperor for approximately 30 years before his death in 11 ABY)

I'm sorry. That's a plot hole big enough to safely navigate the Lusankya through without worrying about your port and starboard tolerances.

In the following spoiler I fix the plot hole AND make the prequels better, but it's all just my opinion and fan ranting and can be safely ignored by pretty much everyone who doesn't hate the prequels as much as I do.

Spoiler:

So in addition to rewriting the entire prequel series to make them awesome, namely making the word "midichlorians" a word punishable by a 60 year term on Kessel, and making sure gungans only exist as a strange concept, I'd space it the feth out.

30 years between the rise of the Empire and the Battle of Yavin at a bare minimum.

So how do you make that work with Luke and Leia? You get dark. Instead of Darth Vader immediately getting the suit, make it a long process, the slow corruption and death of Anakin Skywalker instead of a quick scene of him killing some Jedi bratlings and fighting Obi Wan. Make it personal, especially to the characters all three movies should have focused on. Obi Wan and Anakin. As far as Padme, if you establish the relationship post rise, have her stay with Anakin. There's dark paths for that and then there's grimdark options, the former being "I'll raze Naboo to the ground if you don't" and the latter being... unpleasant things involving the Force, and it's only as more and more of the flesh of the man that was Anakin Skywalker withers and dies (maybe Obi Wan took an arm or something when he escaped for the big fight scene) and is replaced with a machine, in 19 BBY when Padme finds out she's pregnant and some terrible gak went down on Naboo any way (Exterminate those damn amphibians. An Imperial policy I can personally support) so she leaves and manages to deliver her new born children into the hands of Bail Organa and Obi Wan before returning to face Vader's wrath, her ship is subsequently destroyed before she can even open a comm channel. You could handle all of that last bit in a near post script. Fifteen odd minutes of film if you get creative with your presentation and editing.

Phantom Menace: Establish Anakin, a prodigy and extremely brash young padawan, and Obi Wan a seasoned Jedi Knight who's training his first apprentice, intrigue and plots, if you must establish Padme, and set up Dooku as the primary bad guy behind the droid armies /now/ A. to make use of a fantastic actor and cool character, and B. because the Neimoidians were boring, as are trade disputes. Keep Maul. Maybe don't kill him off immediately? Starts of the over all Palpatine intrigue, a taste though. Establish Anakin's authority issues/attitude issues now. By end of film reveal the Separatists or establish at the very least that many worlds are unhappy with Republic rule and there's evidence of ramped up military production/organization.

Attack of the Clones: Anakin and Obi Wan are more seasoned, with the latter being upgraded to Master in between films or late in Menace. Investigate the intrigue threads as team, held back significantly by the Jedi council. Some brash action set pieces, the Separatists announce their break off, not by trying to kill one senator and a couple Jedi but attacking multiple Republic outposts and declaring so. Cut to the cool parts of that movie, now cut in with the third starting some of the major battles now, because a Galaxy spanning war shouldn't properly be set off with one engagement on one planet from a strategic or depiction sense. Also gives us some more time to get to know some of the Jedi we're getting to know, Anakin resents the council for hindering Obi Wan and his investigation because it could have prevented the war, and doesn't think a bunch of doddering old men are going to really know how to fight the war "they" started because of their failure to act or investigate more seriously.

Revenge of the Sith: Clone wars in full swing. Battle of Coruscant, Anakin starts pursuing his own investigation into what he sees as the unresolved Sith issue, thinking that Dooku is not the real power here, regularly goes AWOL or behind the council's back for Republic assistance. Palpatine encourages this significantly, gives him all the tools he needs. When it's uncovered that he's a Sith Lord, Anakin's quite swayable that the Council's attack on him is more of the Jedi master's nonsense, and that they're destroying the Republic with their inaction and internal schemes. Cue Order 66 and the rise of Darth Vader.

**argonak**

The Emperor had no succession plan. Vader would be the natural heir, but he was dead. Essentially, Napoleon died with no heir.

So the question is, what happens next? I think there's two logical outcomes.

1. If enough of the Moffs are of the mind to do so, the Empire breaks up into warring factions as every Grand Moff or Grand Admiral declares himself Emperor. The fleets fight each other to death.
2. What I think more likely, is that the Imperial Senate would meet and elect a Prime Minister. The majority of the Imperial Bureaucracy would continue. most of the fleets would transfer their loyalty to the new government. Essentially the Empire would continue, but in a more democratic form. There might even be a new Emperor (some relative of Palpatine), but he'd likely have no power. The senate would roll back the human domination of the government, and re-establish rights for oppressed non-human worlds. At some point humans might rise up and seize power violently again, but i doubt it.

I think these two are the most logical options, and given the presence of the Rebellion and the History of the Republic, I think number 2 is the most likely.

>I think what really bothers me, is how even in the movies the Empire is described. Not in terms of power but in terms of culture. This isn't an issue with The Mouse, so much as an issue with Lucas. The Clone Wars don't begin till 22 BBY thanks to the Prequel series, and the New Order is declared and Order 66 is issued 19 BBY. In that time frame the Empire has to finish exterminating the Jedi, consolidate it's power, reorganize itself and the massive bureaucracy under it's control, establish widespread alien discrimination to the point of it seeming generational, build a massive fleet of Star Destroyers and the Death Star, and give Ewan Mcgregor enough time to start looking like Sir Alec Guinness and spend a stupid amount of time on Tatooine enough to A. be part of local lore and B. be presumed dead some years back, so he can die in 0 BBY. (So Palpatine was Emperor for approximately 30 years before his death in 11 ABY)

Honestly, while I find fault with a lot of Star Wars in the details (and love it on the whole) I don't think this specific is that big of a deal. The Emperor didn't necessarily scrap the existing bureaucracy, he just changed the name of the Old Republic at first. He was already the Supreme Chancellor and commander in Chief. Its certainly a bit of head canon, but consider the following. Humans are a major galactic minority. They represent a powerful block, and having the Emperor as one of them means they're his natural allies. He knew this, and so he made them his power base. Humanity runs the Empire for him. They're the fleet. The army. The beauracacy. The alien discrimination is a side effect, and a way to keep them on his side. Economically, he likely taxed the hell out of alien races (as well as enslaved them) specifically so he could subsidize the Human worlds. At first he could have simply given them special favoritism. made human worlds the sector capitals and let them take over the local government bureaucracy. Later would come the oppressive taxes on non-human worlds. All the meanwhile Vader is hunting down the last of the jedi, an organization that was never large to begin with (and probably suffered heavy casualties during the clone wars).

**LordofHats**

(From the EU)

Humans being racist towards non-Humans was not started by Palpatine, or even a side effect per se. In the lore, Humans are among the most prosperous and affluent races in the Galaxy. They are not a minority. In fact Humans and Near-Human (offshoots of the Human race) make up a significant chunk of the Galactic population. Some of the most famous are Zeltrons, Happans, Chiss, Arkanian, Dathomiri, Echani, and Zabraks. While often times physically different, all these races are essentially 'human.' Add them all up and more than a third of the galaxy's population is of Human descent and most of the galaxy's wealth and affluence is concentrated with them (and Humans/Human-offshoots are among the most force sensitive races in Star Wars).

Non-humans have always gotten the short end. The Republic barely blinked when the Mandelorians nearly wiped out the Cathar. Wookie and Twi-Lek slave trading is commonplace even in time periods where slavery is supposed to be illegal. The Republic cared a lot less when non-humans were in Crisis (this is covered in some of the 'young Yoda' story lines and was a significant reason why Yoda and the Order under him distrusted politicians).

Now why Palpatine encouraged racism is a bit more complicated. Lore has long established that the Sith are themselves fairly racist, but against whom and too what degree varies by author. The very first force users on Tython were a Human race, and thus the force users who eventually became the Sith Order, were also human. Throw in that they valued heavily the strength of their bloodline to the original Sith race early on as a major part of their culture, and you've set the groundwork for the Sith Order as a very racist organization overly concerned with where genes are coming from. Even long after Sith blood has basically faded to nothingness they were still profoundly racist. Focus had just shifted away from being Sith genetically to basically human.

**Sasori**

I think Kylo Ren is just going to be a puppet of whoever the real Sith Master is.

**squidhills**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Spoiler:

So in addition to rewriting the entire prequel series to make them awesome, namely making the word "midichlorians" a word punishable by a 60 year term on Kessel, and making sure gungans only exist as a strange concept, I'd space it the feth out.

30 years between the rise of the Empire and the Battle of Yavin at a bare minimum.

So how do you make that work with Luke and Leia? You get dark. Instead of Darth Vader immediately getting the suit, make it a long process, the slow corruption and death of Anakin Skywalker instead of a quick scene of him killing some Jedi bratlings and fighting Obi Wan. Make it personal, especially to the characters all three movies should have focused on. Obi Wan and Anakin. As far as Padme, if you establish the relationship post rise, have her stay with Anakin. There's dark paths for that and then there's grimdark options, the former being "I'll raze Naboo to the ground if you don't" and the latter being... unpleasant things involving the Force, and it's only as more and more of the flesh of the man that was Anakin Skywalker withers and dies (maybe Obi Wan took an arm or something when he escaped for the big fight scene) and is replaced with a machine, in 19 BBY when Padme finds out she's pregnant and some terrible gak went down on Naboo any way (Exterminate those damn amphibians. An Imperial policy I can personally support) so she leaves and manages to deliver her new born children into the hands of Bail Organa and Obi Wan before returning to face Vader's wrath, her ship is subsequently destroyed before she can even open a comm channel. You could handle all of that last bit in a near post script. Fifteen odd minutes of film if you get creative with your presentation and editing.

Phantom Menace: Establish Anakin, a prodigy and extremely brash young padawan, and Obi Wan a seasoned Jedi Knight who's training his first apprentice, intrigue and plots, if you must establish Padme, and set up Dooku as the primary bad guy behind the droid armies /now/ A. to make use of a fantastic actor and cool character, and B. because the Neimoidians were boring, as are trade disputes. Keep Maul. Maybe don't kill him off immediately? Starts of the over all Palpatine intrigue, a taste though. Establish Anakin's authority issues/attitude issues now. By end of film reveal the Separatists or establish at the very least that many worlds are unhappy with Republic rule and there's evidence of ramped up military production/organization.

Attack of the Clones: Anakin and Obi Wan are more seasoned, with the latter being upgraded to Master in between films or late in Menace. Investigate the intrigue threads as team, held back significantly by the Jedi council. Some brash action set pieces, the Separatists announce their break off, not by trying to kill one senator and a couple Jedi but attacking multiple Republic outposts and declaring so. Cut to the cool parts of that movie, now cut in with the third starting some of the major battles now, because a Galaxy spanning war shouldn't properly be set off with one engagement on one planet from a strategic or depiction sense. Also gives us some more time to get to know some of the Jedi we're getting to know, Anakin resents the council for hindering Obi Wan and his investigation because it could have prevented the war, and doesn't think a bunch of doddering old men are going to really know how to fight the war "they" started because of their failure to act or investigate more seriously.

Revenge of the Sith: Clone wars in full swing. Battle of Coruscant, Anakin starts pursuing his own investigation into what he sees as the unresolved Sith issue, thinking that Dooku is not the real power here, regularly goes AWOL or behind the council's back for Republic assistance. Palpatine encourages this significantly, gives him all the tools he needs. When it's uncovered that he's a Sith Lord, Anakin's quite swayable that the Council's attack on him is more of the Jedi master's nonsense, and that they're destroying the Republic with their inaction and internal schemes. Cue Order 66 and the rise of Darth Vader.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote here. I think having Padme stay with Anakin for a few years while he turns to evil and abuses her would be awesome from a storytelling perspective, but it would kill the idea of there being any "good" left in him for his son to exploit (after watching Anakin play the abusive spouse towards Padme for a few years of movie-time, the audience would not buy that there was any part of him worth saving). Anakin's fall needs to be sudden, but it also needs to make sense. The fall Lucas gave us wasn't a fall (Anakin of the Prequels is never "good", therefore he cannot "fall" to evil. He kinda just slouched over to evil one day after getting bored with being a petulant brat and wanting to try something more edgy.) and it didn't make sense. "My wife might be sick because of a vague dream I had... and the most evil man in the universe says he can help save her if I kill a bunch of kids... seems legit!"

What I would love to see if they re-made the Prequels is, more than anything, I would like to see the Clone Wars. Instead of the first and last 20 minutes of the war, spread accross two movies, I'd like for the Clone Wars (I'd like for there to be more than one, actually, since the bloody name is plural) to be the major background event of all three films. Kind of like how the Galactic Civil War was the major background event of the OT. And they should start in bloody media res, just like the OT. Start out with Anakin and Obi Wan both already as fully licensed and accredidted Jedi, none of this Padawan crap. I don't need to see Obi Wan train Anakin; it isn't important. What Anakin does as a Padawan isn't important. What he does as a Jedi is, and the films should start there. We don't need to see Anakin and Obi Wan become friends, we just need to see them become enemies.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Actually I think the Audience thinking Vader completely irredeemable would make more sense. I mean that was certainly the goal of throwing in a scene of Anakin killing a bunch of kids wasn't it? Everyone in the known galaxy at the time of RotJ thinks Vader is completely irredeemable except his son, Luke.

**Manchu**

There is no Imperial Senate around to elect/declare a new emperor post-Endor. It was dissolved before the Battle of Yavin.

In the EU, Imperial muckety mucks largely turned on each other after Endor. This made sense to me when I was younger (I think one of the Zahn novels even says Palpatine purposefully had no succession plans to dissuade assassination attempts). But not so much anymore. Even without an heir apparent (and I don't think Vader was such), it would be in the interests of the Imperial hierarchy to quickly install a new head of state.

**Easy E**

Vader was not the Hier, he was just the Master of the Horse; to use the Roman term. The guy who did all the dirty work for the Dictator, and was his right hand man. When the Dictator was gone, so was the Master of the Horse's power.

**Crazy_Carnifex**

Manchu wrote:
There is no Imperial Senate around to elect/declare a new emperor post-Endor. It was dissolved before the Battle of Yavin.

In the EU, Imperial muckety mucks largely turned on each other after Endor. This made sense to me when I was younger (I think one of the Zahn novels even says Palpatine purposefully had no succession plans to dissuade assassination attempts). But not so much anymore. Even without an heir apparent (and I don't think Vader was such), it would be in the interests of the Imperial hierarchy to quickly install a new head of state.

It still works if you assume Palpatine made a point of installing guys who did not want anyone other than them in charge. Kind of a "We are struggling together" thing. While Palpatines alive, you've got ambitious guys competing for position, but kept in check by the threat of imminent force-choking via Vader. Palpatine dies, Vader dies, and no-one wants to pass on the top seat to a rival. Think of Prisoners Dilemma, except Palpatine rigged the game so he's the Warden, and everyone else in the command structure is a squealer. Yeah, remaining silent (not making a power grab) is the best decision, but none of the Imperials trust each other.

**Grey Templar**

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Manchu wrote:
There is no Imperial Senate around to elect/declare a new emperor post-Endor. It was dissolved before the Battle of Yavin.

In the EU, Imperial muckety mucks largely turned on each other after Endor. This made sense to me when I was younger (I think one of the Zahn novels even says Palpatine purposefully had no succession plans to dissuade assassination attempts). But not so much anymore. Even without an heir apparent (and I don't think Vader was such), it would be in the interests of the Imperial hierarchy to quickly install a new head of state.

It still works if you assume Palpatine made a point of installing guys who did not want anyone other than them in charge. Kind of a "We are struggling together" thing. While Palpatines alive, you've got ambitious guys competing for position, but kept in check by the threat of imminent force-choking via Vader. Palpatine dies, Vader dies, and no-one wants to pass on the top seat to a rival. Think of Prisoners Dilemma, except Palpatine rigged the game so he's the Warden, and everyone else in the command structure is a squealer. Yeah, remaining silent (not making a power grab) is the best decision, but none of the Imperials trust each other.

No, but there was still a system in place. And no amount of power playing is going to cause an immediate collapse of that system. There would be some chaos for a short time, but eventually a leader would emerge.

**KalashnikovMarine**

From what I recall for the EU, several powerful Moffs and senior officials splintered off, but for the most part the remanent just convened a governing body out of the senior loyal moffs and and military leaders once Issard was forced off Coruscant

**Manchu**

As long as the new emperor wasn't more activist than the original one, I don't think the moffs would mind. Having an emperor would if anything shore up their own power.

**Frazzled**

Manchu wrote:
There is no Imperial Senate around to elect/declare a new emperor post-Endor. It was dissolved before the Battle of Yavin.

In the EU, Imperial muckety mucks largely turned on each other after Endor. This made sense to me when I was younger (I think one of the Zahn novels even says Palpatine purposefully had no succession plans to dissuade assassination attempts). But not so much anymore. Even without an heir apparent (and I don't think Vader was such), it would be in the interests of the Imperial hierarchy to quickly install a new head of state.

Often with empires (or Kingdoms) the end of the current ruler spells civil wars for a period of time. Either the empire gets behind a new guy and a new dynasty or the empire weakens, creating a feeding frenzy as it gets worse and worse. Thats why monarchial dictatorships are more stable than militarily led empires, but even they frickasie up once and a while. In fact, I'd argue thats the natural state of human governance, not democracies.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Manchu wrote:
This made sense to me when I was younger (I think one of the Zahn novels even says Palpatine purposefully had no succession plans to dissuade assassination attempts). But not so much anymore. Even without an heir apparent (and I don't think Vader was such), it would be in the interests of the Imperial hierarchy to quickly install a new head of state.

Personally, I think that Palpatine's "succession plan" was that the Empire would follow the Sith Ways. By this I mean of course that Vader would somehow conspire and plot against him, kill him and become the Emperor and find an apprentice to continue the cycle. Vader's deposing of the Emperor may temporarily embolden the Moffs or other high ranking officials to attempt to off Vader, but Vader using the Force would squash much of that in a hurry.

**Manchu**

Hard to say what Palpatine's end game was. Judging only by RotJ, his death seems ... highly preventable. I have never bought that teddy bears could take on the Emperor's "crack troops." It makes even less sense in light of the prequels, where he is able to somehow manipulate events in the span of decades. Maybe Vader's change of heart is one of those "Sauron will never expect us to destroy the ring" type situations. Even that seems a bit strange considering how farsighted the prequels show him. Long before the prequels ever existed, his death seemed utterly implausible to certain writers, hence Dark Empire.

I agree with those who have said Palpatine wanted to attain immortality. In that case, putting a succession plan in place would be admitting failure.