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Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.

Fragile wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Yea, their lack of fearless sucks. A large blob of them has synergy with a bargeLord. A re-rollable leadership 10 save is practically fearless to shooting and in CC they should be winning morale or just losing it barely.

Depends of what charges them. Imperial Knights, T8 MC, rerolleable 2+ or invisible units have a good chance of sweeping the FO.

You shouldn't be putting them in a position to be charged by those things. They are a board control unit more than a combat unit.

Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.

Edit: Callidus'd

Yeah it's why I think Outflanking them against armies that have those things the best option.

Or Deep STriking.

They're a amazing CC against all infantry, watching them demolish other CC units is part of the fun. They'll also beat down on Wraiths pretty hardcore.

Requizen wrote:
Well, in the case of Imperial Knights or Screamerstar, there's really nowhere that's "safe" from them. The fact of the matter is they're still a 6" move unit, so infiltrating nearly anywhere in the center of the board means that a Knight that wants to charge you on turn 2 probably will be able to.

Edit: Callidus'd

Again, why would you infiltrate near the center if you are facing a Knight.

Most of that type of units have 12" movement, so there goes board control.

Quite the opposite. That is exactly what board control means.

You simply put the Flayed Ones in a position that requires the enemy to respond in a certain manner. If they deploy these 12" things then you infiltrate the Flayed Ones to the sides and threaten flanks. You can even be cagey with it and set up 22 Inches away. See if your opponent will try a 10" charge. And even if he does and succeeds, then he has thrown his high value Knight, death star at a trash unit on the far side of the board. Meanwhile you gain flexibility to move without having to deal with that threat on the remainder of the board.

This is the farm list I have been running with great success


10 Spyders to buff the Canoptek Harvest Scarabs by 10 bases a turn.
2 additional units of scarabs to follow, and bubblewrap the rear, then eventually get pumped up.
2 CAD units of warriors with OBSEC to hold objectives in depolyment area.
A pretty much minimum Decurion to march across the battlefield and shoot stuff off of the enemy objectives.
1 unit of Flayed Ones to Deepstrike for line breaker, and cause general havoc.

It's a crap ton of hard to kill models, that the enemy needs to focus their attacks to remove any given unit, and any unit in the army is redundant.

I like to suicidally rush towards the enemy with the Tomb Blades. You'ld be suprised how much fire they will pour into them, and how much of it they can survive thanks to jink + RP.

19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board

I don't understand a few things in that list:

1) where is that lord going, and why doesn't he have a res orb?
2) why are you taking the reclamation legion for just 1 Canoptek harvest? Have that be the formstion for your normal CAD
3) you can literally take your entire army under a normal CAD + harvest, losing out only on either a single unit of scarabs or the tomb blades (personally I think you can make enough scarabs)
4) with the points you save from doing #3 you could get some AA, some dedicated AT, or whatever your heart desires. I think more obsec > +1 RP

Res Orbs are really meh now unless you're spamming them, they're just not worth the points cost imo.

But yeah, you could totally split that up into just CAD + Formation.

 luke1705 wrote:
I don't understand a few things in that list:

1) where is that lord going, and why doesn't he have a res orb?
2) why are you taking the reclamation legion for just 1 Canoptek harvest? Have that be the formstion for your normal CAD
3) you can literally take your entire army under a normal CAD + harvest, losing out only on either a single unit of scarabs or the tomb blades (personally I think you can make enough scarabs)
4) with the points you save from doing #3 you could get some AA, some dedicated AT, or whatever your heart desires. I think more obsec > +1 RP

The Decurion buffs the Harvest with +1 RP. Totally worth it. Personally I would run more MSU Canoptek Harvests with 2-3 Spyders per Harvest and skip the CAD

Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.

Everyone has their own opinion Hollismason. Some people prefer the CAD, and some people prefer Decurion. The benefits of both sides have clearly been laid out for everyone to decide, and the importance of obsec isn't something you can Mathhammer and say it is/isn't more important than +1 to FNP. Thankfully we will see how Adepticon shakes out in terms of Decurion vs non for the top tables (and I do expect Crons at the top tables) which will at least put to rest which is more competitive. Until then, we can all say "maybe"

Hollismason wrote:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.

Stop suggesting what?

Anyway check this list out.


Reclamation Legion
Catacomb Command Barge Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe

5X Immortal


5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster
5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes

10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior

Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)

Requizen wrote:
Res Orbs are really meh now unless you're spamming them, they're just not worth the points cost imo.

But yeah, you could totally split that up into just CAD + Formation.

How are you defining "worth points cost"? Because by every metric that I can see, they absolutely are.

Say you don't have a Cryptek in the unit and you're not running Decurion (so worst case scenario for res orb efficiency)


You're also going to have a unit of 10 warriors (cheapest per body, so again worst case)

Say that you get shot up and are looking at 20 wounds (a lot of shots, I know, but you're going to pop the orb to save them). So you save half with 4+ armor. Down to 10. Then with 5+ FNP you save 3 (ish) and you have 7 unsaved wounds left. You then save two more and lose only 5 warriors instead of 7, paying for the orb's cost plus 1 point extra saved.

Say you have a Cryptek (or are in Decurion) so have 4+ RP. Say you have 24 wounds, down to 12 after armor, 6 after RP, 3 after res orb. You only lose 3 models and save 3, netting you 39 saved points, or the cost of the res orb + 14.

You really can't overstate the value of durability in a turn-limited objectives game. And even if you do (and make the worst assumptions possible) you only need to save 2 extra guys to pay for the orb. That's not even mentioning having it on a tanking lord or something, where every saved wound can be as much as 70 points (how I run it)

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.

Stop suggesting what?

Anyway check this list out.


Reclamation Legion
Catacomb Command Barge Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe

5X Immortal


5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster
5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes

10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior

Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)

You know what we've been through this argument multiple times someone suggests Scarab farm. You say here try this , we all point out that that's not the way the rules work. You try and turn it into some sort of quasi-philosophical ad hoc argument about the nature of man or whatever. It get's dropped then it comes back up again in 3 pages.

Otherwise you're advice is spot on but seriously stop telling people to do that , you're in the minority on this by like everyone (IE all major tournaments have it de facto be one Spyder).

Stop suggesting you can add spyders to a Canoptek Harvest.

 luke1705 wrote:
Everyone has their own opinion Hollismason. Some people prefer the CAD, and some people prefer Decurion. The benefits of both sides have clearly been laid out for everyone to decide, and the importance of obsec isn't something you can Mathhammer and say it is/isn't more important than +1 to FNP. Thankfully we will see how Adepticon shakes out in terms of Decurion vs non for the top tables (and I do expect Crons at the top tables) which will at least put to rest which is more competitive. Until then, we can all say "maybe"

I wasn't talking about that I was talking about the whole Add spyders to the Canoptek Harvest, I think it will be cool to see how things turn out at Adepticon.

Hollismason wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.

Stop suggesting what?

Anyway check this list out.


Reclamation Legion
Catacomb Command Barge Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe

5X Immortal


5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster
5X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes

10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior

Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)

You know what we've been through this argument multiple times someone suggests Scarab farm. You say here try this , we all point out that that's not the way the rules work. You try and turn it into some sort of quasi-philosophical ad hoc argument about the nature of man or whatever. It get's dropped then it comes back up again in 3 pages.

Otherwise you're advice is spot on but seriously stop telling people to do that , you're in the minority on this by like everyone (IE all major tournaments have it de facto be one Spyder).

Stop suggesting you can add spyders to a Canoptek Harvest.

I suggest it because that's what the rules unequivocally support. Tournaments and local scenes can HYWPI however you like it. And if your local group wants to play it a certain way then good for you. But for you I think you need to seriously stop pretending that you have rules support. Get together with your buds and vote on it and knock yourself out. But dakka dakka assumes RAW and quit misinforming people that you somehow have RAW. I have abundantly shown in this thread that I have RAW support.

col_impact wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Ugh please stop, just stop suggesting that.

Stop suggesting what?

He's frustrated that people would rather be slightly more durable than have the ability to contest/score objectives.

FWIW, I agree with him. Without obsec, you can't score any contested objective, nor can you contest any objective held by an obsec unit. Unless you plan on tabling your opponent, that's a problem. You will be alive at the end of the game, but if you're playing objectives, you won't have any. I've yet to see any Decurion list that I thought had enough killing power to deal with any competitive army. How do you deal with Daemon summoning? Flyrant spam? CentStar who actually can kill you? Obsec spam marines? They are as durable as you, or close. Can you kill all of them? If not, you won't own objectives. Same with the scouts that are almost as durable as you but cheaper and more numerous.

Edit: I was wrong about that assumption. I'll leave it there as I think it has its own merit; however col_impact I think it is misleading to state 2/3 Spyders in a harvest as a tactic that everyone will use. I have not seen a single tournament rule it that way, nor have I heard a single group say "that is HIWPI". So at the very least, for the benefit of those who don't keep up with all of this stuff, it's probably more honest to say "hey if your group looks at the rules and says this is how we're going to play it, try this out". But don't assume that as the norm because for the majority of people it clearly is not right now.

Especially because your argument for RAW utilizes a loophole that most casual players would never think could even exist, and upon hearing your arguments I am not convinced is RAW myself. But please, let's let that stand as is in YMDC and let people decide for themselves and talk about established tactics

 luke1705 wrote:

1) where is that lord going, and why doesn't he have a res orb?

That lord is following the swarm and spyders to give them rerolls of 1s.
I don't like the new ResOrb, so I don't take it.

2) why are you taking the reclamation legion for just 1 Canoptek harvest? Have that be the formstion for your normal CAD

4+ RP
I'm only taking the CAD to get 9 additional Spyders

4) with the points you save from doing #3 you could get some AA, some dedicated AT, or whatever your heart desires.

Not much AA needed in my local Meta, and I dislike what little is left for dedicated AT in the Nercon Codex.
I appreciate your input, and it is solid advice if I wanted to make a more general purpose list.

 luke1705 wrote:

Especially because your argument for RAW utilizes a loophole that most casual players would never think could even exist, and upon hearing your arguments I am not convinced is RAW myself.

I'm playing with 1 Spyder in the formation, pending the FAQ, to cut down on arguments, but it's not some strained loophole .
The formation clearly lists no restrictions, adding additional spyders is a standard upgrade.
RAW there should be nothing preventing you from adding addtional Spyders.

I can see why tournaments, and anyone who plays against Necrons, want it ruled the other way as an attempt to power balance.

 adamsouza wrote:

RAW there should be nothing preventing you from adding addtional Spyders.

RAW there certainly is. The YDMC thread proved that.

+++ Necron Decurion + CAD(1996pts) +++

Spoiler:

Reclamation Legion
Overlord [Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe]
3x Tomb Blades [Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior
5x Immortals
+ Auxiliary (480pts) +
Canoptek Harvest
9x Canoptek Scarabs
1x Canoptek Spyders
3x Canoptek Wraiths
Flayed Ones
10x Flayed One

++ (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Cryptek [Chronometron, Staff of Light]
10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior
3x Canoptek Scarabs
3x Canoptek Scarabs
3x Canoptek Spyders
3x Canoptek Spyders
3x Canoptek Spyders

If the lord is simply following the swarm, why did you deck him out with so much ?
Do your Tomb Blades really draw that much fire to use them as a distraction and not as a objective grabber?

Fragile wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

RAW there should be nothing preventing you from adding addtional Spyders.

RAW there certainly is. The YDMC thread proved that.

Feel free to restate or repost that argument using copy paste technology. In this very thread my argument stands uncontested. No counter argument has stood up against it. Feel free to open up your rule book and try to do so instead of pointing vaguely at some thread.

Consider this a broad call out to anyone who thinks they have a RAW counter argument. There is literally no rules support for restricting the Canoptek Harvest to 1 Spyder. If anyone thinks otherwise they can share their argument with this thread and I will show how it can easily be toppled. Otherwise quit misleading people about RAW and focus instead on a HYWPI argument, which I fully endorse you doing. Just quit misleading.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a version of Canoptek farm running ally and two objSec

Reclamation Legion
Vanilla Overlord

5X Immortal


3X Tomb Blade Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster

10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior

Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
3x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (TransD)

Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
2x Spyder (1 with Gloom Prism)
3 x Wraiths (1 with Whipcoils)

Tau Ally

Ethereal

XV104 Riptide Ion accelerator, Twin-linked smart missile system, Velocity tracker

10x Kroot

10x Kroot


The Riptide is a better long-range artillery option than anything Necron offers (including the Doomsday cannon) and Kroot are better troops than anything Necron natively offers so the Ethereal tax seems trivial and the Tau ally is a straight up upgrade for the Decurion.

Notice this list has no vehicles at all so all AV from the opponent is blanked. Also, no air so the opponent's AA is wasted points. Also the riptide provides awesome AA and horde control that is going to last the whole game since the opponent has tons of other stuff to worry about and the Riptide is crazy durable.

This list just seeks to gum up the board with fearless durable beasts and monsters. The reclamation legion provides some objective grabbing and fire support and a decent backfield gunline but the core of this list is the farm.

The way this list beats Knights is easy. Just use your movement phase and a fearless unit (ideally scarabs) to fence in a Knight. Do NOT assault the Knight. The Knight will be unable to move fully on its turn if you fence him in right and account for counterfire, wound allocation, and opponent counters. Sure the Knight will kill everything in CC in 1 turn, but what defeats the Knight is for it to lose its movement. It can't jump over troops in its way.

You are actually being the one that's misleading by stating you can when every tournament, and the large majority say you cannot because RAW it states 1 Spyder.

Hollismason wrote:
You are actually being the one that's misleading by stating you can when every tournament, and the large majority say you cannot because RAW it states 1 Spyder.

I am not misleading. RAW arguments are not decided by votes or by tourney popularity but by actually forming rational arguments using the rules. So far I am the only who has a rational and consistent argument that uses the rules. Therefore not only do I claim a RAW argument but I claim an uncontested RAW argument.

Hollismason, I am calling you out. Feel free to present what you think is a rational and consistent argument using the rules and I will happily show how its toppled by the rules.


If you are trying to maintain that since the formation says "1 Spyder" that that is enough for a solid case then you are woefully mistaken.

First, can you prove whether "1 Spyder" refers to a model or a unit? Unless you can prove that it refers unequivocally to a model then your whole argument falls completely apart as I will gladly show should you want to continue.

Fragile wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

RAW there should be nothing preventing you from adding addtional Spyders.

RAW there certainly is. The YDMC thread proved that.

Unless other people's codexes have something printed in the Canoptek Swarms restrictions box, I highly doubt it.

I understand that the language used describes a singular model. Since the singular model is what is required for the formation, the singular language makes sense.
The lack of ANY restrictions to the fomation, allows for ANY legal upgrade.
Additional models is an upgrade.
The Destroyer Cult tells us we have to have a minimum of 3 models per squad.
If there were a RAW limit to a single Spyder, it would have to be listed in the Restrictions.
Taking the singular language as proof of only a single model being allowed is a RAI argument.

This thread would go smoother if we all just ignored posts about the Spyder situation that we disagree with. Certainly the rule is contentious enough that it can be played both ways, and there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for playing it either way.

Tournaments can rule how they like, there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for armies that don't follow their house rules. Adepticon is going to allow re embarking on night scythes, something for which there is no rules support whatsoever, so we can all be forgiven for not taking their rulings as the final word on the matter.

Hollismason wrote:
You are actually being the one that's misleading by stating you can when every tournament, and the large majority say you cannot because RAW it states 1 Spyder.

To be fair you kinda called him out on it and so are the one (technically) who bought it back up again.

Tekron wrote:
This thread would go smoother if we all just ignored posts about the Spyder situation that we disagree with. Certainly the rule is contentious enough that it can be played both ways, and there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for playing it either way.

Tournaments can rule how they like, there's nothing wrong with discussing tactics for armies that don't follow their house rules. Adepticon is going to allow re embarking on night scythes, something for which there is no rules support whatsoever, so we can all be forgiven for not taking their rulings as the final word on the matter.

This is also relevant to your argument about following tournament rulings.

We can all agree that there is a disagreement. It's best to just chill out in the tactics section and go super saiyan in YMDC until a major tournament makes a ruling on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


This is how I chose to paint my crons. I could do a 2000 point army in 30 minutes with a can of metallic spray and quick shade dip, but I love the way my crons look and I really truly must hate myself to go yellow and blue. If a major TO gives the green light to multiple spiders I would seriously cry because that means I would have to finish 7 more spiders.

Alcibiades wrote:
Deep Striking Land Raider with Living Metal, a battle cannon, four heavy bolters, and ability to teleport all other units = joke

Overpriced maybe, but the use in that is obvious

Yeah, it's really not a joke at all. Particularly now that one of the best units we have, Heavy Destroyers, can use Mono's to grab a 0+ cover save, it has a variety of quite strong tactical uses.

Apparently most people play against 2000 points worth of drop melta, because that's the only way I can see people thinking it's not durable. From my estimation, if you are consistently loosing an AV 14 4 HP unit early, you are doing something tragically wrong, and it's not the unit's fault.

Anyway, YMMV, as always. However, when you combine it's fire out put, with it's ability to give 0+ cover saves, and it's ability to swap Ob Sec units around the board, I think it's a unit the functions pretty well. I don't think it's anywhere near the best unit in the Codex, but it's fully functional, and gives you options that cannot be replicated by any other unit.

What's an average Battle Cannon cost, like 130 points? So, for 70 points more, you can pass 0+ cover saves to your units, get 4 snap shooting Gauss Heavy Bolters, and the ability to redeploy any of your Infantry?

I dunno know. That seems about right, to me. Particularly if you are playing in a planet bowling ball like tournament. /shrug.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Deep Striking Land Raider with Living Metal, a battle cannon, four heavy bolters, and ability to teleport all other units = joke

Overpriced maybe, but the use in that is obvious

What's an average Battle Cannon cost, like 130 points? So, for 70 points more, you can pass 0+ cover saves to your units, get 4 snap shooting Gauss Heavy Bolters, and the ability to redeploy any of your Infantry?

I dunno know. That seems about right, to me. Particularly if you are playing in a planet bowling ball like tournament. /shrug.

Real Battle Cannons have 72" range and even then are mediocre compared to the other options. I haven't seen a vanilla Lemon Russ in a while.

That extra range is nice, and all, but it's not like Misslesides had trouble hitting things, and they have the exact same range as the Mono.

Anyway, it's offensive prowess is secondary to why you are taking. Obviously, if all you want is a powerful pie plate, DAs are a superior option. Mono does a bunch of stuff, one of them is drop 8/3 ord blasts.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
That extra range is nice, and all, but it's not like Misslesides had trouble hitting things, and they have the exact same range as the Mono.

Anyway, it's offensive prowess is secondary to why you are taking. Obviously, if all you want is a powerful pie plate, DAs are a superior option. Mono does a bunch of stuff, one of them is drop 8/3 ord blasts.

Yes I agree. I was responding to your comparison of the average Battle Cannon cost. I'm not sure how a Mono can be compared to a Missleside at all.

 adamsouza wrote:

19 Scarab Bases with RP in turn 1, with some cover and luck it's 29 charging in turn 2.
Turn 3 and 4 I usually try to buff the other 2 units of scarabs by 10 each and then send them on kamikazi missions to disrupt enemy objectives.
The Decurion Warriors pretty much just march across the battelfield shooting until something gets in their way.
The Immortals are usually parked on the 3rd obective marker on my side of the board

If you position them right, you can have the 10 extra bases go across no man's land for a turn 1 charge since they removed the restriction requiring new scarabs to be in cohesion with non-spawed scarabs.

Daisy chain them straight into the face of your opponent's midfield for a nice big claw filled hug, then give them 10 extra bases while they are in combat because they removed that restriction as well.

I left this thread because it was impossible to go through one page without col_impact making his best attempt at getting the thread locked with his 'my argument stands uncontested' nonsense. He literally does not understand what contest means. I see nothing's changed.

Carry on.