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In the wolf guard battle leader war gear it says that anything the wolf guards can take is available to him.....so does this mean I could have a wgbl armed in terminator armour with a chainfist and an asscannon attached to a squad of grey hunters? or would the heavys not be available to him since he is with no other wolf guard in Terminator armour?

No he cannot take heavy weapons.
This idea has been belabored enough. As a Space Wolf player I would love to be able to load up my multiple mandatory HQ choices with donkey cannons to stick it to everyone since I am forced to take so many. Unfortunately, a badly worded sentence in the WGBL entry does not invalidate the other clear sentences in the wolf guard entry.

The heavy weapons under Wolf Guard Bodygaurd state:
"Wolf Guard Heavy Weapons: Up to one in three models in the Wolf Guard bodyguard (rounding fractions up) may be armed with one of the following heavy weapons each."

This clearly restricts the taking of heavy weapons to members of the bodyguard. A WGBL is an independant character and not a member of a Wolf Guard bodyguard when you have him join a squad of any sort, nor is he a member of his own bodyguard when he is accompanied by one.

Actually, WGBL can take the heavy weapons when they have a wolf guard bodyguard (IC's are part of a squad they are attached to). But they are limited to the one per 3 wolf guard bodyguard models, so one by themselves can't take a heavy.

So your saying that the WGBL is a member of his own bodyguard. That just doesn't make sense on multiple levels. To me that sounds like more stretching of language to justify something.
He is considered a part of the unit for some rules situations, but he is not part of it in others like close combat and after they are all dead.
That logic doesn't support anyone's case.
The rules I quoted still define the situation. He is not a member of his own bodyguard, he is an independant character HQ choice and can be given a retinue of wolf guard bodyguard from the elites section. He can choose options allowed to him from their entry. That entry specifically limits the heavy weapons to members of the bodyguard.

But he is allowed options from the Wolf Guard bodyguard. The only option at all that the bodyguard squad has is heavy weapons.

And the WGBL IS part of the squad except for some very specific circumstances. What the squad is named has no bearing as far as rules go (Unless the rules are only for a unit called by that name).

A WGBL "may be given any equipment allowed from the Space Wolves Armoury and/or the Wolf Guard entry in the army list."
Your argument is that since the Wolf Guard entry doesn't allow him to take anything different than he could already take they must have intended for him to take the heavy weapons despite the fact that those are specifically restricted to members of a retinue. If you want to argue intent then take a look at the FAQ where they clearly indicate that the WGBL is not a member of the Wolf Guard by saying that he does not use the lower points cost on equipment and does not count as one of the 20 Wolf Guard models. This directly contradicts the quote above as the armoury says that the lower point cost is for Wolf Guard.

Your idea that the names of units in the game are irrelevant to the rules is obsurd. All the rules in a codex are for units called out by name except for army special rules and the armoury (which they are doing away with.) This case is specifically about what the units are called because the rule calls out the Wolf Guard bodyguard by name. While your playing he is treated as part of the squad most of the time, and sometimes not. That is not in dispute, and it has no relevance on picking your army from your codex. The names of units have little bearing on the playing of the game, but they are of prime importance when picking your army.

The yakfaq says that you can take the heavy weapons at any time and call it RAW. I disagree with that and have quoted the rules directly from the codex that prove them wrong.

So far you have made claims and given no evidence to support them. This is my final response to you until you can actually quote some rules and try to support your arguments. I leave it to the original poster to decide which respondent has made the most reasonable explanation of the rules.

Don't bother making a nice battle leader with assault cannon model as we all know that its not going to be valid when they put out the new codex soon.

And you're ignoring the rules in the book. It's been well established before that WGBL's can take one of the heavies for the bodyguard unit.

The FAQ just makes it clear that the WGBL does not pay the cost in the armory for wolf guard, but rather the cost for IC's.

skyth wrote:And you're ignoring the rules in the book. It's been well established before that WGBL's can take one of the heavies for the bodyguard unit.

The FAQ just makes it clear that the WGBL does not pay the cost in the armory for wolf guard, but rather the cost for IC's.

You are incorrect. The WGBL can only take items from the WG entry list in the armoury. It does not say they can take anything from the WG Bodyguard list.

Can you please cite the official "established" places where it says they can take a heavy weapon?

'The Wolf Guard Battle Leader may be given any equipment allowed from the Space Wolves Armoury and/or the Wolf Guard entry in the army list.'

The only equipment in the Wolf Guard entry are heavy weapons.

Now, speaking of the Wolf Guard Bodyguard, 'the character and the bodyguard form a single unit'.

That right there is enough to say that the WGBL can take one of the unit's heavies.

Also, the FAQ reads-

'A Wolf Guard Battle Leader does not use the Wolf Guard column in the Space Wolves armoury when selecting weapons and wargear.'

Says nothing about taking the options from the Wolf Guard, which he is explicitly allowed to do from the codex.

What we have here is a difference in interpretation of the sentence you have quoted.
The entry is under Wolf Guard bodyguard and says:
"Squad: A Wolf Guard bodyguard can consist of between 4 to 9 models. It must be assigned to a character that is allowed to have a bodyguard and the character and the bodyguard form a single unit."
I read that entry as first defining that a bodyguard is 4-9 models purchased from that section for the given cost per model. Then the second sentence defines that the purchased bodyguard must be allocated to a specific character, the battle leader in our case, and that they will form a single unit with that character just like what is written in the rule book about such retinues. Just because they will form a single unit on the board does not mean that it has any effect on how you purchase their equipment.

You interpret the last phrase to mean that because they will form a single unit that the character that is given a bodyguard is now a part of the squad and can be given the squads heavy weapon options. If that is the case then any character given a retinue can take the retinues weapon choices. Similar phrasing was used in other old codicies illustrating the retinue concept which is now spelled out in the rulebook. I do not see how you are making your interpretation.

You state that the only equipment in the Wolf Guard entry for the WGBL to take are the heavy weapons. That is not true. Both squad leaders and bodyguard members have entries allowing them to be given equipment from the armoury. This is of course redundant as the contested sentence in the WGBL entry already allows you to take armoury items. You seem to think that because this is redundant for the WGBL we should ignore the restrictions in the heavy weapon entry that I initially quoted in order to make the unprecedented leap of giving a marine HQ character heavy weapons. Sorry, but the phrase under WGBL is redundant and accomplishes nothing. Only models in the bodyguard may be armed with a heavy weapon.

You are making up your own connections in order to make their bad writing become a meaningful and useful option.

So then from what I gather then he cannot take any heavy weapons that are available to the wolf guard is that correct?

No, WGBL's can take heavies. You're just ignoring what the rules say. They are given explicit permission to take any of the options from the Wolf Guard.

I guess, technically, a WGBL can take a heavy weapon if he's by himself as 1 out of every 3 models (rounded up) means 1 weapon for himself.

No they can't take heavies. Your just ignoring what the rules say. The rules explicitly limit the heavy weapons to bodyguard members.

I guess, technically, a WGBL can't take a heavy weapon at all as he isn't a wolf guard bodyguard model to be counted which means he is 0 out of 3.

I can spit out trite and pithy responses just like you!

'The Wolf Guard Battle Leader may be given any equipment allowed from the Space Wolves Armoury and/or the Wolf Guard entry in the army list.'

The only equipment in the Wolf Guard entry are heavy weapons.

It's kind of odd and counter-intuitive, as very few other characters can take heavy weapons (Inquisitors still can; old Ork Warbosses could, IIRC), but the wolf guard entry JUST has the weapons as options. There's nothing else there it could be talking about.

The basis for WGBL to take heavy weapons is that they are allowed access to WG options and the only options are heavy weapons. I have always assumed that this was an oversight (GW have a rules mistake? Inconcievible!) and that originally there was maybe something in the WG list he could take. Or, maybe there never was and this is a bit of fluff - the WGBL is technically part of the WG (just one with an improved stat line), so he should get all the options they have.

The answer, for the original poster, is that there is no general consensus. People who want to put heavy weapons on their WGBL do and people who don't think that's right say "that's not right".

Personally, I fall into the camp that thinks a WGBL can not take heavy weapons under any circumstances - I just give him a combi-plasma instead!

Rumor is that SW will get a new codex in about 12-18 months. I expect at that time, it will be made clear that WGBL either can or cannot take heavy weapons. I expect the answer to be they cannot.

*shrugs* It makes sense if you consider that some of the Wolf Guard came up from the Long Fangs.

Thanks all for the input, I didnt think this thread would become such a heated debate!! What I think I will do from now on is ask my opponent if they agree if I could give them the HW or not. Also in response to the access to wargear I think it means that any War Gear could be bought at the WG point cost and not the point cost that everyone else has to pay. Thanks again for all the input and I hope this hasnt spawned any hatred/grudematches between Skyth and SetantaSilvermane. I want you both to hug and make up or just slug in out in a friendly game of WH40k then!!!!

Later
Gareth

The SW FAQ makes it clear a WGBL pays the IC cost for wargear, not the WG cost.

The gear that is referred to is in the armory. Only WG's can take Jump Packs, Great Company Standards or the Mark of the Wulfen. So only a WGBL can take those items. A Wolf Lord cannot take a jump pack then, but a WGBL can.

Qualifiers for the wargear are still applicable. Only a WG Standard Bearer can take a Great Company Standard. Only a WD bodyguard can take a heavy weapon.

Keith, that doesn't work. The codex says:

Space Wolf Codex wrote:'The Wolf Guard Battle Leader may be given any equipment allowed from the Space Wolves Armoury and/or the Wolf Guard entry in the army list.'

He's given access to the armoury AND to equipment in the Wolf Guard entry in the army list. The only equipment option in the Wolf Guard entry is the weapons.

Gareth's supposition that it means the WGBL is allowed to pay Wolf Guard prices for the stuff in the armoury is specifically contradicted in the FAQ (and has been for several years).

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/space_wolves_faq_v4-1.pdf

Space Wolf FAQ wrote:A Wolf Guard Battle Leader does not use the Wolf Guard column in the Space Wolf armoury when selecting weapons and wargear.

I agree that the WGBL can take an assault cannon and the rules are written explicitly so. Some people feel he should not be allowed to for whatever reason and go into basic denial... classic psychology. You will get nowhere arguing with people like that. The autarch can take a missile launcher so I see no problem with it in regards to Space Wolves.

- G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I agree that the WGBL can take an assault cannon and the rules are written explicitly so. Some people feel he should not be allowed to for whatever reason and go into basic denial... classic psychology. You will get nowhere arguing with people like that. The autarch can take a missile launcher so I see no problem with it in regards to Space Wolves.

- G

reaper launcher, missle launcher same thing. they are both heavy weapons

but it looks to me like since it says he can take any equipment from the armory for WG and bodyguards, and the FAQ says he has to pay the price for IC's, not WG, that implies that he can take the heavy weapons from the WG list because if he was not supposed to be allowed to take a heavy, the FAQ would have said that, not clearing up how much he has to pay for said weapons. no?

The WGBL entry says he can take what he is allowed from the armory and the WG entry. Allowed being the key word.

The actual entry for the heavies says only bodyguard members can take them, but you want to believe we can ignore that specific restriction for some reason. The armory says that certain items can only be taken by the rune priest or the wolf priest. An equally specific restriction disallowing them to the WGBL. Why can't we ignore these restrictions as well?

No one has given any reason why we can ignore a perfectly clear sentence stating an obvious restriction. Someone please explain why.
Is it based on your idea that they must have intended for it to mean that? The only thing those words mean is he can take what he is allowed to from the Wolf Guard entry. That's it. If you think it says you can ignore later restrictions then you are fooling yourself. It does not explicitly say anything else. Classic group think psychology. Somebody brought up this stupid idea on here and everyone believes it.
If they wanted them to have a heavy they wouldn't have written the heavy weapon entry in such a way as to disallow it.

The sentence did have a meaning as was expressed by Keith, until they made the FAQ and nullified its purpose.

The FAQ doesn't mention it specifically because it doesn't have to, but even that logic doesn't get anywhere because how often does GW ignore important questions in their FAQ's.

If you want to bother with fluff, then keep in mind that a WGBL is like a marine captain, he was a veteran, but is now a leader. Yes he was a wolf guard, but he is now a leader. A wolf lord was a wolf guard once as well. And they were all Blood Claws originally, so why doesn't the whole army get +2 A on the charge? Because they gained wisdom and experience and moved on to other roles.

Again, the WGBL is PART of the bodyguard. You keep on ignoring that.

Setanta, arguing Ad Hominem doesn't make your position more convincing. Instead it weakens it.

The rules clearly and explicitly state that he can select equipment from the armoury AND from the wolf guard entry in the army list. If there is only one equipment option IN the wolf guard entry in the army list, and that's the guns, then he's clearly allowed to take the guns.

It looks like we are going in circles. Lockdown requested.

- G

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm only attacking the fact that no one seems willing to debate the points I bring up with any kind of rules quotes or logical reasoning. Simple 1 sentence responses that dismiss the point out of hand without explanation are not an argument.
I have made all the points I can make so I am done.

Either way, It won't matter soon.

My best advice to the original poster is not to mess with it because you may run into someone who disagrees with the idea. Likewise I would not try and make a model of it as it will probably not be legal in the new codex in my opinion.

skyth wrote:Again, the WGBL is PART of the bodyguard. You keep on ignoring that.

So....does that mean a Chaplain is part of the command squad? And in the entry for Command Squad it says upto two models can take heavy weapons. The Chaplain is a model in the squad, so can you give a Chaplain a Plasma Cannon?

I personally think that they can take the weapons, but that is my opinion. I like it when people mastercraft their heavy weapons. LOL