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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.



The Assault rules (on page 36 of the rulebook) say: "A unit that fired in the Shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at."



QUESTION: When an Independent Character is joined to a unit and that unit is wiped out by shooting (for example, by a pinning weapon) leaving the IC as the only remaining model, does the IC have to take a pinning test or morale check at the end of the phase (assume the unit lost 25% casualties when it was wiped out) as if he was still part of the destroyed unit (including the -1 Ld modifier for the unit being under 50% starting strength?) And is an enemy that fired on his unit and wiped it out then allowed to charge the IC in the subsequent assault phase?



OPTION A. The RAW: As soon as the unit is wiped out it no longer exists and therefore there is no unit to take a pinning or morale check (in other words, the character doesn't have to take either a pinning test or a morale check at the end of the shooting phase). Also, enemies who fired at the IC's unit are not allowed to declare a charge against him as they fired at the unit he was joined to and he is not that same unit.


OPTION B. As soon as the unit is wiped out it no longer exists and therefore there is no unit to take a pinning or morale check (in other words, the character doesn't have to take either a pinning test or a morale check at the end of the shooting phase). However, enemies who fired at the IC's unit are allowed to declare a charge against the IC as he can be considered part of the unit they fired at.


OPTION C. For the purposes of morale and pinning checks, the IC is considered part of the unit until the end of the phase the unit was wiped out in, he would still be forced to pass a pinning test and morale check with a -1 modifier for the unit being under 50%. Enemies who fired at the IC's unit are allowed to declare a charge against the IC as he can be considered part of the unit they fired at.


OPTION D. For the purposes of morale and pinning checks, the IC is considered part of the unit until the end of the phase the unit was wiped out in, so he would still be forced to pass a pinning test and morale check. However for whatever reason, the -1 modifier for the unit being under 50% does not apply to these tests. Enemies who fired at the IC's unit are allowed to declare a charge against the IC as he can be considered part of the unit they fired at.


OPTION E. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I'm not quite sure where, but I'm fairly certain that ICs in units are not considered 'part of' the unit, and this eliminates this issue as well as not allowing an IC to travel along with the squad if they have a dedicated transport.

Another stupid 4th ed situation, so another good candidate for a poll ...

I voted D as that's how I've actually played it before, but I can see C being agreeable (has the 2 things that matter to me - IC takes a test, and can be charged).

- Salvage

I play D (he does become independent the moment he is the last one left so he wouldn't have a negative like he wouldn't take last man standings) but was part of the unit at the time of the shooting so he has to take the test and can be charged.

I would also be happy with playing C if an opponent asked to as the negative is not a big deal.

I'd have to go E on this one as I think you've missed a combination:

OPTION E. For the purposes of morale and pinning checks, the IC is considered part of the unit until the end of the phase the unit was wiped out in, so he would still be forced to pass a pinning test and morale check. The -1 modifier for the unit being under 50% does apply to these tests, as the unit still exists until the end of the phase. Enemies who fired at the IC's unit are NOT allowed to declare a charge against the IC as the unit that was fired at does not exist in the assault phase.

Viperion

Ihavenoavatar wrote:I'm not quite sure where, but I'm fairly certain that ICs in units are not considered 'part of' the unit, and this eliminates this issue as well as not allowing an IC to travel along with the squad if they have a dedicated transport.

You are wrong about the IC that has joined a unit not being part of the unit by the way. The only exception to being 'part of the unit' is that the IC fights in close combat as a different unit, but is still actually part of the unit they had joined.

Option C. A character becomes a member of any unit he joins. For all intents and purposes, they are one unit until the end of the phase in which the joined unit was wiped out.

EDIT: What a nice bell curve... Edit Edit: Actually, I don't think option A is the RAW. By RAW, he immediately becomes an independent character, but that doesn't impact his status as a unit. He's still the same unit, and thus can be assaulted by any unit that would still have the range and/or fired upon his unit that turn. But additional firing from other units would be hampered by the normal rules for targeting ICs.

I play it D.

That sounds like a situation that was overlooked out of the rule book.

I am confused here, you state that A is RAW, please explain your reasoning here the way I see it C is the closest to RAW.

RAW states that the only time an IC can join or leave a unit is during the models own movement phase, for all intents and purpouses he will be a part of that unit and thus will suffer the effects of the unit. If the unit is forced to take a Ld test he will be affected by it just as any other model in the unit.

Thus when the rules state that a unit that suffers 25% of its members must test vs Ld then the IC will be affected just like he is a member of that unit, likewise if the unit is below 50% there will be a -1 modifier to the roll.

Thus there would be no difference between an IC with a lone surviving member of the unit or if he is infact the only one left, in the oponents shooting phase the IC may not leave the unit and thus remains part of that unit despite the fact that the unit is wiped out.

According to RAW he would even be part of that unit and that unit would be "alive" untill the IC's next movement phase at wich time he automatically moves out of coherency with the unit with 0 models.
I dont really like RAW.

This actually meens that if IC:A joins U:A(5 models) and in the oponents shooting phase U:B shoots and kills all 5 models in U:A then any unit on the field can target IC:A even if he is not the closest by making a simple target priority test as he is still considered to be part of U:A (cant leave untill movement phase).

There is only one Ld test an IC can ignore when being the sole survivor of a gunfight leaving him alone alive and that is at the start if the IC's turn he will not have to take a "Last Man Standing" test.

Thus I would play it as described in C, I would however consider that he reverts back to being an IC at the end of the shooting phase after the Ld and pinning tests have been taken.

Now if there are rules that I have not considered then I would be very interested in being pointed to them, I am not infullable after all

i've always played it B. he doesn't test because he's no longer part of the unit, but he can be assaulted because the firing unit was firing at him unit or no unit.

A andC both seem like valid interpretations as well. i don't really see how he can test but not take the penalty though, if he's still part of the unit it is definitely under half.

corinth wrote:A andC both seem like valid interpretations as well. i don't really see how he can test but not take the penalty though, if he's still part of the unit it is definitely under half.

fluffwise (since this is not a RAW discussion) the IC does not have to "encourage" the other members of the unit he had been joined to, which is where the negative would come from.

Once the squad is no longer present the IC is a new and independent unit. It appears to me that RAW would dictate that if the unit he is with is wiped out he is now protected from assault because his unit was there to give him added protection. This is the same situation as if an IC was in the middle of the unit and the unit was wiped out around him.

So A all the way.

An IC that had his unit wiped out in CC is still engaged when the others are killed....

I don't see how "A" is RAW. From what I can see, "C" is the closest to RAW.

An IC that joins a unit is part of that unit until he leaves it, and joining / leaving units doesn't happen until his next movement phase.

So until that IC is free to move, he is simply the last man remaining in a unit under 50%. If he's not Fearless and he fails a Morale Check (due to the rest of the squad dying to shooting) prior to his next movement phase, he's done. He loses IC protection and may be targeted for shooting by any enemy unit, just like the unit he was a part of.

If he's part of a unit that was locked in HtH, he remains locked, even if the unit and everything around him has died.

The idea that ICs should be able to automatically regain all their IC benefits seems rather strange, because then there is no decision to make whether to join a unit or not.

In 5th edition, this particular issue has been resolved in favor of IC's are units.

I voted C, it's the closest supported by the RAW.

I voted C, as it is the closest to the RAW, but still not right. The sheer majority seems to be in agreement about this (well, not about the not right part, but about the RAW).

The not right part is that the BGB tells us to look at the individual character's retinue rules in the codex for clarification if we're talking about a destroyed retinue. In the case of a destroyed joined squad, I agree that the IC remains the same unit until their next movement phase. However, they also have independent character status as soon as they are alone (which resolves immediately like the immobilized vehicle thing), and thus would benefit from IC targeting rules for any subsequent shooting.

The rest of C is correct, by the RAW, where I didn't discuss it here.

THe IC is part of the unit untill the movement phase when he can leave or join sqauds. Just because the unit he joined got wiped out does not mean he automaticaly leaves the sqaud..he is the last man of that sqaud untill the next time he can leave or joina squad thus he leaves by default since he has no sqaud next turn.

Where does this impulse to have the IC "leave the unit" come from?

If all members of the joined unit are wiped out, the character now is the lone composing model of the unit. Since he has IC status, it becomes a unit (the same unit, not a new one) comprised of an IC, so he benefits from the rules of being an IC.

If it makes you feel better to declare that your IC is forming a new unit every turn, I guess I have no problem with that. But I don't think it's necessary. I think the duplicity set up by Yak in this poll is a false duplicity.

fester wrote:I am confused here, you state that A is RAW, please explain your reasoning here the way I see it C is the closest to RAW.

RAW states that the only time an IC can join or leave a unit is during the models own movement phase, for all intents and purpouses he will be a part of that unit and thus will suffer the effects of the unit. If the unit is forced to take a Ld test he will be affected by it just as any other model in the unit.

Thus when the rules state that a unit that suffers 25% of its members must test vs Ld then the IC will be affected just like he is a member of that unit, likewise if the unit is below 50% there will be a -1 modifier to the roll.

Thus there would be no difference between an IC with a lone surviving member of the unit or if he is infact the only one left, in the oponents shooting phase the IC may not leave the unit and thus remains part of that unit despite the fact that the unit is wiped out.

According to RAW he would even be part of that unit and that unit would be "alive" untill the IC's next movement phase at wich time he automatically moves out of coherency with the unit with 0 models.
I dont really like RAW.

This actually meens that if IC:A joins U:A(5 models) and in the oponents shooting phase U:B shoots and kills all 5 models in U:A then any unit on the field can target IC:A even if he is not the closest by making a simple target priority test as he is still considered to be part of U:A (cant leave untill movement phase).

There is only one Ld test an IC can ignore when being the sole survivor of a gunfight leaving him alone alive and that is at the start if the IC's turn he will not have to take a "Last Man Standing" test.

Thus I would play it as described in C, I would however consider that he reverts back to being an IC at the end of the shooting phase after the Ld and pinning tests have been taken.

Now if there are rules that I have not considered then I would be very interested in being pointed to them, I am not infullable after all

I agree completely.

Here is a little chart that pretty much explains my understanding of this...

Koolidge wrote:great looking graphical representation

Wow, reading my post and then looking at that image...
I prefer your way of showing it, I sadly tend to rant

@yakface:

Can you clarify what your basis is for declaring "RAW" for option "A"?

According to the current (4th Edition Rulebook, p. 50-51), it states (in part):

- An Independant Character may only join or leave a unit during the Movement phase...

- A character may not join or leave a unit while it is falling back...

- If the unit has been pinned, the character may not leave it until it is no longer pinned.

nowhere does it state that a Character automatically leaves a unit when the rest of the unit is destroyed.

Characters as Leaders
... if a character is part of a unit that falls back, he may not leave the unit until it regroups. Characters never need to take Last Man Standing tests, ...

LMS (p.49) only applies when a unit is wiped out except for "a single member left". If a Character automatically left the unit upon its demise, LMS would never apply.

Retinues
... Should the unit be destroyed, the character may once again move between units

note that this doesn't override that leaving / joining only occurs during Movement.

fester wrote:

Koolidge wrote:great looking graphical representation

I had to read that twice and reference.

I agree with this, and the way they interpret and play the rules.
You do not ever change the "unit" the IC is considered, or considered part of, until the SINGLE time the rules allow you to do so in a round.

and that is never represented in the "RAW" yakface is basing the question on. at least the written part.

technically a wiped out unit is still a unit, and this is occationally relevant when considering who won what.
you think when destroyed in assault the "unit" is no longer a "unit" so the assualting unit never destroys a "unit" (being that there is not one) and gets no combat resolution? or is that simply because the rules skip that part and move on illogically?

so is that C or E?

C is how I've always played as well.

A variation of this rule came up in a game last night, except it involves shooting and not assault.

A squad of Lootas shot at a unit of Templar which consisted of 2 Templar and ?Halbrecht? (special character). He did have the character attached to the unit. The Lootas inflicted 10 wounds, the saves were rolled and there were 5 armor save fails. He took off his two marines and then proceeded to claim that because of his IC status, he did not have to take any wounds, even though he was part of the unit. Once the unit was destroyed, he was a separate unit and thus could not be shot at. How does this situation work?

IMHO, that situation doesn't work. Halbrecht would have had to be assigned hits, thus he gets wounds. In the Remove Casualties section, p. 26, 'When a unit suffers wounding hits, each will affect a different model - you cannot claim that all the hits strike a single mode.'

Since the wounding hits are given out to the unit, which Halbrecht was a part of at the time, he needs to be assigned some of those hits.

Thanks Lormax.

HiveJive wrote:A squad of Lootas shot at a unit of Templar which consisted of 2 Templar and ?Halbrecht? (special character). He did have the character attached to the unit. The Lootas inflicted 10 wounds, the saves were rolled and there were 5 armor save fails. He took off his two marines and then proceeded to claim that because of his IC status, he did not have to take any wounds, even though he was part of the unit.

Nope. If he started as part of the unit, he takes the remaining 3 wounds. (and dies).

If it were only 1 wound (i.e. not enough to kill him), then he would have to take a morale test at -1 for the unit being under half strength, unless he is Fearless. However, he is still a Marine, so he at least benefits from ATSKNF and won't be lost unless there are bad guys to escort him off the board.

Once the unit was destroyed, he was a separate unit and thus could not be shot at.

Nope. He's part of the unit until such time as he's free to move again. He may be targeted freely until that time.

HiveJive wrote:A variation of this rule came up in a game last night, except it involves shooting and not assault.

A squad of Lootas shot at a unit of Templar which consisted of 2 Templar and ?Halbrecht? (special character). He did have the character attached to the unit. The Lootas inflicted 10 wounds, the saves were rolled and there were 5 armor save fails. He took off his two marines and then proceeded to claim that because of his IC status, he did not have to take any wounds, even though he was part of the unit. Once the unit was destroyed, he was a separate unit and thus could not be shot at. How does this situation work?

Actually in this situation the Loota player would be allowed to use the torrent of fire rule on page 26 to allocate a single wound to any model in the unit, that wound must be taken by that model if the save is failed.

Thus there is a chance that the H dude will already have a wound when the remaining wounds are to be dished out. My assumption here is that at this point there were 5 wounding hits and only 3 models, 2 templars with 1 wound each, both thus casualties.
As H was joined into the unit he is also considered a target and thus the remaining 3 wounds must be allocated to him, as the three wounds have already failed saves I expect this meens that H is a casualty too.

My point here is dont forget the torrent of fire rule, its not a well advertised rule but one that is very powerfull vs high quality low number units such as SM's.

My first thoughts were to go with "C" but one reading through the rest of the options a thought occured to me.

To me it seems reasonable that the IC would be considered part of the unit they were attached to until the end of the shooting phase. And therefore be subject to all the normal tests and modifiers.

But... What is he was fearless like the Space Marine Chaplain for example. Under normal circumstances the fearless ability is not transfered to the unit it is with unless it specifies that it does(I'm aware that in the case of the chaplain, he does transfer the ability)

This would mean that a IC that is fearless on its own would have to make a morale test as he technically loses this ability. This point alone has made me re-think on the choices.

Would love to see how this discussion pans out as it could be very problematic if players think different things so would be good to have something definiative to be able to argue the case if needed.

So I'm going with "B" on this one, I imagine my opponent would be REALLY cheesed off if I tried to wing it that he couldn't attack the IC after firing and killing the whole unit. And to be honest, I'd have to agree

hellsguardian316:
Being on your own and being in a unit is not mutually exclusive.

An IC that is the sole survivor in a unit is the only model in the unit. As at this point all models in the unit have the special rule then the unit as a whole will count as having the special rule.

After all a fearless IC joining a fearless unit retains his fearless status and while a fearless IC looses his fearless status in a non fearless unit he will when he is the sole survivor of the unit be in a unit of only fearless models and thus he will again be fearless.