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Chaos Knights do indeed have a 1+ save: +4 for Chaos Armour, +1 for shields, +2 for barded mounts.

So: 5 BS5 shots needing 2+ = 4.2 hits. S4 vs. T4, needing 4+ = 2.1 wounds. 1+ armour vs. S4 AP = .7 Wounds.

Unless they have the Mark of Tzeentch or the Blasted Standard, they don't have a Ward save.
But when they do, it effects both units equally, so it shouldn't change who's better than who. They both get equally worse.

When we are comparing waywatchers to maiden guard, we need to assume that maiden guard did't move. For it has an effective range longer by 9 inches.

I already calculated that maiden guard are better vs 2+armour t3 in this circumstances.
The same armour T4 .Maiden guard 5/6*1/2*1/2=0,208333 wounds. Waywatchers 5/6*1/6+5/6*1/3*1/3=23148 wounds.
Maiden guard are better vs 2+ armour t3 and t4 and weaker armours. While Waywatchers are better vs 1+ armour and 2+ t4 armour.

Now the question arises.

What's the ratio of units with 1+ armor and 2+ armour t4 to 2+ armour t3, units with weaker armours(3+,4+), monsters and enthernals.

How about extending the range of killing shot to long range?

I already put up numbers for when they didn't move.

Also, let's call them the Sisters of Avelorn. For that, as I found out today, is their real name.

Against T3 2+ armour, 10 Waywatchers do .6 wounds at long range and 2.8 at short range (1.4 Killing Blow, 1.4 after saves).
10 Sisters do 2.3 at long range and 2.8 at short.

Against T4, Waywatchers do .4 and 2.3 (1.4 Killing Blow, .9 regular).
The Sister do 1.7 and 2.1.

But the point of all these numbers was this: the Sisters are a (very) little bit better than Waywatchers at shooting against most opponents.
So all Waywatchers really need is a tweak here and there (mostly to their price), and they're good to go.

They should NOT be as good at causing mass casualties as the Sisters of Avelorn; Waywatchers are stalkers, snipers, and hunters. They can scout (making their actual range a lot longer), can shoot and move (through the woods, even!) and are -2 to be shot at in return.
So yeah, Waywatchers need some help. I think the single biggest thing would be dropping them down to 20pts or so. But they--and Glade Guard--are not nearly so awful as many make them out to be.

Remember that waywatchers are supposed to be a bit better then sisters of avelorn. Finally this is supposed to be the best archer unit in the game. Maybe if killing shot would work on long range or waywatchers could use the sniper rule and killing shot simultaneously.

According to Merriam-Webster, the definition of archery is simply "the art, practice, or skill of shooting with bow and arrow". The definition of archer is "a person who uses a bow and arrow".
So you say that Waywatchers, being Wood Elves, are supposed to be better archers than the Sisters of Avelorn, since they're High Elves.
Now we can take those definitions and replace them with the word archer in your claim: "Wood Elves are the best persons who use bows and arrows", or "Wood Elves are the best at the art, practice, or skill of shooting with bow and arrow".

According to these statements, the bow and the arrow used by the individual have nothing to do with the bow or the arrow they use. So the Sister's longer range, S4 Armour Piercing, Magical, Flaming weaponry has nothing to do with their skill as archers. BS5 does though, as does firing in 3.

Now, Waywatchers are BS5, can move and shoot without penalty. The whole unit can shoot, but we won't count that as a point in their favor, since that's due to them being Skirmishers, rather than a special rule saying that they're awesome at shooting (like the Sister's firing in 3 ranks). Killing Blow/Sniper does come from their supernatural aim, though.

So, technically speaking, Waywatchers are the better archers.
But no one's going to compare them like that, right? They're looking at their overall performances. At which time, I'd point out that Waywatchers can all shoot, are much more maneuverable in both deployment and on the table, and are a much more durable unit.

Also, the Waywatchers in my Fandex have Killing Blow and/or Sniper at any range already (as much for simplicity's sake as to make them better).
And Killing Blow + Sniper on the whole unit, all the time, would equal the very height of ridiculous. They can easily get within close range on Turn 1, and fire at your General. Assuming he's T5 with a 4+ Ward, a group of 6-7 stand a 50-50 chance of killing him dead right then and there. No way.

If waywatchers have killing blow at long range and cost 20 points per model then they are fine.

What about the 70 points standard? It would be cool if wood elfs would get one that would allow archers reroll to hit.

The big standard for Wood Elves ought to be the Standard of Ariel, and the more I think about it, the more I think it should be primarily defensive.
What it currently does is okay, it's just not enough/too expensive. Maybe a Ward save on the unit and MR to anyone with 12"? Or a penalty to be hit, or maybe the unit is Ethereal in the Movement Phase or something?

Why not add+1 to hit( shooting and close combat) for the unit of standard bearer and magic resistance of 2 for every unit within 12.


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Or instead the standard grants 3+ wardsave to the unit of bearer and unstable rule and magic resistance lvl 1 to all units within 12.

+1 to Hit and Magic Resistance don't really go together, thematically.

3+ Ward and Unstable is too good and too weird. Unstable is like Unbreakable, which is awesome, and the casualties-instead-of-fleeing is a bit of a toss up in many situations as to which is worse (though I'll admit, it's usually worse).
But a 3+ Ward would make them extremely unlikely to lose many combat in the first place.
Finally, the BSB's option to take a Magic Banner over protective equipment should not yield more protection than the protective equipment does.

So what would you do with the banner?

How about a 5+ Ward to all units within 12" (since Wood Elves are so fragile anyway), and the unit can move through (but not end its move on) Impassible Terrain?

Also: Wild Riders on Great Stags. 60pts? They'd be Monstrous Cavalry:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 5 0 5 4 2 4 1 7
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Impact Hits (D3)

So they're weaker than most, being only T4 and a 4+ armour save (6+ light armour, +2 for the mount), and they aren't super fearsome in close combat with A1, but they're M9 and fast cavalry. Thoughts?

In the current rulebook stag has 2 attacks and 3 wounds , and costs 50 points. All other stats are the same as you mentioned a part from impact hits. I think 2 attacks, 3 wounds and d3 impact hit's are justified at a cost of 60 points. Rider should cost additional points.

Perhaps the standard can inmprove the ward save of all units within 12 by 2. Since most wood elf units have already a 5+ ward save.

I was thinking 60pts for the whole model. Trying to make them comparable.

60 pts for a whole model is a bit to less I would say 75 points.
What about the standard?

Wild Riders should be appropriately priced/powered compared to Blood Crushers, Mournfangs, etc. What do these units have for Wounds/Attacks/cost? Because Wild Riders should be on the weaker side of all three, to make up for their mobility, and to emphasize that even the Wood Elves' elite cavalry shouldn't just go charging headlong into the enemy.
I mean, aren't Blood Knights 70pts?

Also, D3 Impact Hits is worth more than 10pts/model. I gave them that because (1) it makes sense, and (2) to make them more effective in the first round and less effective afterwards, hence the 1 attack downgrade. I guess I could see them having 2 attacks, since they're Monstrous.

The thing about the standard is, while many Wood Elf units have a Ward save, not all of them do. So this banner could give your fragile units the same protection those other ones enjoy.
It could just grant MR2, but Magic Resistance is pretty awful.

Improving the Ward save of all units within 12" by 2 is beyond broken. Think about it; characters and Wild Riders with 2+ Wards, Treekin and Treemen with 3+'s...it'd be an auto-include.

Mourn fangs deal 4 S5 attacks and have M of 8 inches. The riders deal 3 S4 attacks. The whole model costs 60 points. For 5 points riders can get a heavy armour instead of light. For another 5 points ironfist which is treated exactly as a shild or great weapon for 8 points. 70 point model can have +2 armour save and parry or 73 points model can have a rider with 3 S6 attacks and 3+ armour save. Not to mention d3 impact hits , T4 instead of T3 for rider and 3 wounds.That's way 70 points for a model with 3 S5 attacks from stag and 2 S4/S5 attacks from the rider with T3 and 2 wounds is a good point cost.



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Juggernauts have a 3 S5 attacks and 3 wounds opposed to stags with just 2. Blood letters have a killing blow . The whole model has +4 armour save magic resistance lvl 1 ,5+ wardsave and costs 65 points.


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When it comes to the standard maybe 5+ ward save for the unit of the bearer and + 1 to ward save to all units within 12 a part the one of the bearer.

Oh, so Bloodcrushers have three wounds too? Cool. So Great Stags with W3 isn't unusual. We'll go with that.

Wild Riders should not be better than Bloodcrushers and Mournfangs. Sure, they're Elves, but they're also a lighter, faster unit.

So let's compare (notify me of any errors in stat-value)-

Defense
- Crushers: T5 (right?) ,4+/5+
- Mournfangs: T4, 2+/6+ or 3+
- Wild Riders: T4, 4+/4+

Looking at that actually makes me want to downgrade the Riders to a 5+ armour save. The Stag doesn't really offer much in the way of protection anyway. Wild Riders should be more fragile in some ways, but the Stag's T4 and their 4+ Ward make that hard to do.

Offense
- Crushers: 3 WS6 S6 KB , 3 WS5 S5
- Mournfangs: 3 WS3 S4(6), 4 WS3 S5, D3 Impact
- Wild Riders: 2 WS5 S5, 2 WS4 S5, D3 Impact

So Wild Riders have 3 less attacks, but higher WS and I than Mournfangs, and while they're at -1WS and S compared to the Crushers, they have D3 Impact Hits.

Mobility
- Crushers: M7
- Mournfang: M8 and huge bases
- Wild Riders: M9 Fast Cavalry

Here they blow everyone out of the water. Which is fine. That's what we want them to do. But that means they should be a little worse in the other departments.

So here's a revision:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
9 5 0 5 4 3 4 2 7
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Impact Hits (D3)

As for the banner, I'm still going to say no. Sense when do you see unit-wide 4+ Ward saves? Wood Elves should have fewer Deathstars and viable castling-lists than any other army. Just be happy with giving your archers and a few other odd units a 5+ Ward.
Really, though, I'd like it to work on Eternal Guard (and it does, but it's usually redundant). Maybe -1 to be shot or hit in CC or something...

When it comes to monstrous cavalry it is treated exactly like cavalry with the following exeception: model uses highest wounds characteristics. In brb it does't say that it uses highest toughness characteristics thought. This means that the model is going to have a toughness of a rider. Wild rider has a toughness of 3 and his toughness is used when attacks are resolved at model. Crushers are FAQ'd which I don't know what it stands for, that allows them to use t4 OF MOUNT INSTEAD OF T3 OF RIDER. The jugernaut rider has a S4 1 attack kiling blow, ws 5. Both jugernaut and rider get +1S in the turn they charged. (Demons of khorne rule)

Therefore 3A,3W for stags are fine. Maybe reduce M to 8 for I5.

When it comes to standard. I could continue the discussion about a ward save. However I like the idea of -1 to hit bs and cc. Since we both agree on it let's just have it.

They FAQ'd MC to also use the highest toughness value.

I can't find Daemon-Jugger stats, but the Warrior-ones are T5. How much do Skull Crushers cost?
But wow did Blood Crushers take a hit in the new book!

So Blood Crushers have 1 S4 KB and 2 S5 attacks.

Something I'm looking at, though. Juggernauts and Mournfangs should be decidedly stronger than a big deer. I was thinking S5 via his headgear, but that's also what I was trying to do with their Impact Hits.

So, first, let's assume that Blood Crushers aren't very good right now. And let's assume that Mournfangs are too cheap for what they bring. So it looks like Demigryphs and Skull Crushers are the best examples all of the sudden?

If all the other Mounstrous Cavalry have mounts with A3+, I won't break that pattern. But S4 seems more fitting, looking at all the other stuff, regardless of number of attacks.

In conclusion: since Wild Riders are T4 and have more attacks than Blood Crushers, and are more manueverable than everyone ever, I don't think they need a ton of help. For now, I'll say:

Wild Rider on Great Stag: 70pts
Wild Rider: M5, WS5, BS4, S4, T3, W1, I5, A1, Ld9
Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Frenzy, Talismanic Tattoos
Great Stag: M9, WS5, BS0, S4, T4, W3, I4, A2, Ld7
Fast Cavalry, Forest Spirit, Forest Walkers, Impact Hits (D3)

But I'm still wondering whether or not to increase Wild Rider's normal cost and make them A2 base.

As for the Big Standard: it shouldn't be the-best-thing-OMG-why-wouldn't-you-take-that. But I think it should be better than most of the other ones out there.
A blanket 5+ Ward seems better to me than MR2, even though the Ward won't stack with other forms of protection (like the Forest Spirit rule). Magic Resistance is extremely narrow in its usefulness, and is terribly named; I'd much rather have Glade Guard huddle under the banner that makes them almost as tough as my Dryads, rather than have any and all of my units gather 'round to get a 3+ versus DD and MM spells. And things that straight-up improve Ward saves are awesome and rare, and doing so by 2 or more is just begging for trouble.
All of the above is why I changed up the Talismanic Tattoos and gave Wardancers a 6+ "Dodge" Ward save. So it'd actually be useful.

But, considering Eternal Guard, I think the Standard of Airel should be:

70pts - the bearer of this standard, along with any unit he joins, may move through terrain as if it were open ground (though they may not end their move in impassible terrain). Additionally, enemy shooting that targets friendly units within 12" of this standard suffer a -1 to Hit.

There. I had to make the Ethereal thing more specific, so that you couldn't charge a unit and be immune to their Stand and Shoot, but other than that, it's nice and simple, with two strong buffs (-1 to Hit is about as good as a 5+ Ward, so Dryads, Wardancers, and Wild Riders shouldn't have to worry about much in the way of shooting with this).

Juggernaut has 3 S5 attacks and T4. Rider has T3. Both rider and juggernaut have +1S during charge. The model costs 65 points.

I agree that stagknights should be much weaker then mournfangs, but just slightly weaker then Crushers if at all for a couple of reasons.

1. Before the newest Demon Codex was released Crushers were too strong. GW wanted to weaken them and overdid it. They will probably get a buff in next demon codex. However if we will make stag knights weaker then crushers are right now, then they will be like this for the next 10 years since wood elf codexs get released once per 10 years.Current wood elf codex was released 8,5-9 years ago. The wood elf 8th or hopefully 9th will probably get released March next year. Demon codexs get released much more often. Wood elfs will have weakest MC in the game. Remember that for the next 10 years after stag knights will get released they will be slowly getting weaker and weaker.

2. Mournfangs are much stronger then any other MC in game. Furthermore ogres have monstrous infantry which is much better than any other in a game. Wood elfs are supossed to be the best archers. However waywatchers are just a bit stronger then Maiden guard. Furthermore I just discovered that dwarf handguns are +1 to hit. Which makes them better then glade guard at range of 24-16 assuming both units did't move. We could quarrel for age whether or not and to what degree wood elf archers are the best in the game. The conclussion we would come up with would be that wood elf are just a bit better than other races in archery. Elsewhere when it comes to ogres there MI and MC are much much better than any other. Every race has it's key strength and few smaller strengths. If for wood elf the key strength is just a little bit bigger than small strengths then there needs to be more small strengths. Let Mc be one of smaller strengths. Meaning that it's not going to be the worst MC in the game and is going to be as good as or bit better then crushers NOW. Demon codex will get released and Crushers will be better again. Thought I think for demons, Crushers are a small strenght at most.

Stags have a great horns and are very strong, They should be able to do as much damge as juggernaut armed in tooth only. Thought stags should be much more fragile then a demonic monster. I think S4 for a stag is a terrible idea, that would make it as strong as cold one armed in tooth only.
Since Crushers are FAQ'd MC which allows them to use highest toughness value does't mean that stag knights need to be FAQ'd. This would make stag knights more fragile, finally that's one of wood elf weaknesses and it's how I imagined them to be.

Then stags could have following stats

3 W, 3 A, S5, M9, d3 impact hits.

Stag knights would have 4+ armour and use lower toughness of rider as cavalry does and some monstrous cavalry.

Once again stats of juggernaut and it's rider.

Juggernaut
M 7, A 3, S5/(S6 charge), I2, T4,W 3,Ws 5

Rider

A1, S4/(S5 charge),I4,T3,W1, Ws 5, killing blow.

Whole model uses higher toughness of the mount , has magic resistance 1 ,4+ armour and 5+ ward.

When it comes to standard it's either -1 to hit both in cc and from shooting or we should continue the discussion about ward saves.I like the option of 5+ ward for the unit of the bearer and wardsave improved by one point for any unit within 12 but not the unit of the bearer. I think ward save of 4+ for a unit is not something disbalancing the game totaly. Your not gone get 3+ since wild riders are fast cavalry and their best at attacking from flank. 4+ ward save is like heavy armour and shield vs S3, heavy armour and shield mounted vs S4, heavy armour and shield mounted on a barded horse vs S5. Many units already have 5+ ward save, 4+ will be just a bit of a buff. Furthermore ward saves are one of those little, numerous wood elven strengths.

1. As I said above, Crushers aren't good enough, Mournfang are too good. So I won't be trying to make Wild Riders equal to them.

2. What's with this "we won't get a new book again for a long time, so make it count" nonsense about? This is a fandex. I can update it as much as I freakin' want. You can update it as much as you want. Even if I disagree with your changes; it's not like I can stop you, or even be aware of when you make those changes.
I'm not here to make sure that this one book lasts until the next one. I'm doing this in an attempt to understand the game better, and satisfy my desire to plot and plan.

3. Your point about strengths and weaknesses is legit, but there's a lot more to it than "Wood Elves have +2 archery. Ogres have +5 Monstrous Cavalry". There's synergy, and maximum potential, and learning curve, and all of the other stuff.
I'll set aside concerns like that for playtesting.

4. ...Dwarf Thunderers are slower, Move or Fire, with the same effective BS, and cost more than Glade Guard. If a Wood Elf player just tries to sit there and out-shoot the Dwarf player, they're playing the wrong army. Even more so than archery, Wood Elves are about mobility.

5. Wild Riders should have less punch than other Monstrous Cavalry. I'm not going to make the riders weaker, and I don't think decreasing the Stag's attacks is a good idea. Which leaves Strength.
But if we're going to talk about in-game logic: which is stronger, a giant deer, or a giant robot-bull? A giant deer, or a horse-sized raptor? Juggernauts have a lot more than teeth; they're covered in spikes and have iron hooves. Cold Ones have sickle-like claws on their hands and feet. Stags have antlers and hooves. None of that changes anything.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to compare Cold Ones and Great Stags in sheer brawn. Keep in mind that the Stag has more attacks and impact hits and a stomp. He's "only" that strong, but he's got 5 more attacks.

6. All monstrous cavalry uses the higher T-value, now. I'm not about to make a Special Rule that downgrades Wild Riders just so they can stay awesome in other categories.
Really, I think changing the Talismanic Tattoos rule might be in order. Cavalry with a 4+ Ward is great. Monstrous Cavalry with a 4+ Ward could...lead to problems.

7. The biggest problem I have with the Standard giving a Ward save is that it won't make Eternal Guard any better, and they're the best unit for a BSB with that standard.
Why would the Standard give the carrying unit a Ward, but only improve the Ward of units around it?
And it's not that a blanket 4+ is horribly game-breaking. It's that you're suggesting all units within 12" have that potential. I'll take that standard in a big unit of Eternal Guard (that I'll take as Core, since my BSB'll have Eternal Kindred) and two blocks of Treekin. Then toss out some Dryads in the front.

If we can update the fandex as much as we want to then let's update Crushers. I don't want Stag kinights to be shity, just because Gw made a mistake.

I think juggernauts are fine, just increase the T5. The riders of juggernauts need a buff thought. How about 2 attacks instead of one. This should be enough assuming they are +1S in charge.

Then let's keep S5 for stags. For me you can drop any other characteristics for stag a part S. Just can't imagine a charge of coldones beeing as powerfull as charge of much more massive stag with great hornes.
If juggernauts get a buff in this fandex then let stags stay at.
3W,3A,S5,Ws5,T4

If juggernauts don't get a buff then let's make a compromise. Keep stags S4 with S5 in the turn they charged. I would even drop the wounds. Stags with gear are as or a little less powerfull then juggernauts , but much less durable. That's way I would drop wounds to 2.

However I would prefer if we upgrade Crushers and keep stags as I first mentioned.

When it comes to standard I ran out of ideas. If you have a standard that somehow benefits all units within 12 you can always clump up units around it and they will all be benefited. My lasy idea is that standard can grant 4+ regeneration to the unit of the bearer.

This is a Wood Elf fandex. Sure, we could make a houserule that says Juggernauts are T5 and their Bloodletter riders have A2. But that's a different matter entirely.

Now listen carefully, because I'm going to explain myself once more, as clearly as possible: Because Blood Crushers are not good enough, Wild Riders will be better. Because Mournfang Cavalry are too good, Wild Riders will be worse than them.

It really looks like the requirement for Monstrous Cavalry to be, well, monstrous, is for them to have W3+ and A3+. So I won't be breaking that pattern just yet.

You say you can't imagine a Great Stag being only as powerful as a Cold One, but consider this:

Two Cold Ones occupy the same amount of space as one Great Stag. Cold Ones have one attack each, at WS3 I2.
Meanwhile, the Great Stag has D3 Impact Hits, 3 attacks at WS4 I4, and a stomp. That's 3 times the offensive output of two Cold Ones, sooner in the Initiative order, with half of the attacks being more accurate and the other half auto-hitting.
I see what you're saying about the comparison, I really do. But again, I ask you, which is harder to believe, that a giant deer is equal in strength to a horse-sized raptor, or that a giant deer is equal in strength to a robot-bull and a 5-ton warthog/wolf/cougar-thing?

+1/2S during the charge is something I considered, to match the Unicorn. But the logic behind it is the same as that behind Impact Hits, so having both is redundant (they have big antlers, so they get +1 S...they have really big antlers, so +D3 Impact Hits).

My point about the standard is that, if the bonus is good enough, you'll want to clump your units up. If it's -1 to be shot or MR2 or something, you don't need your whole army to get that, just the main unit and one or two supporting units is enough.

Thinking about Talismanic Tattoos: Maybe they just give you MR2? I'd make the "Dodge" Ward save on Wardancers a 5+. This way, Wild Riders won't be the toughest Monstrous Cavalry ever.

For Mc to be well monstrous following stats are required 3W+,3A+,5S+,T4+

+1S in charge is not the same as d3 impact hits. Impact hits come from the ramming, while +1S is from the fact stag speeded up and had more force and his attacks with horns are stronger.
I have idea if you don't like the combination of plus 1 strenght in charge then maybe the impact hits can be resolved with S5.

I'll still prefer if we upgrade Crushers here, not to start a new thread and keep stags S5.

Magic resistance 2 from the talismanic Tattoos would do it's job. However then unicorn needs to grant MR 3.

When it comes to standard what do you think of regeneration 4+ for the unit of bearer. I don't like -1 to be shoot at since scaven have a standard which grants -2 to be shoot at for whole army costing just 50 points. It usually stops working after the first 2 turns( the turns of shooting before CC).

@Warp, how about +1/2 strength on the Impact Hits only?

Let stags have S5 at impact hits.

All Monstrous Cavalry has S5. That's a fair point. What that means to me, though, is that I can take liberties not just with S, but with A and W as well.
I won't break the 3 Wound-standard, though. Big is Big. But Attacks could take a hit, like I considered in the first place.
I mean, I still think Juggernauts and Mournfangs are stronger than Great Stags overall. That just makes sense. But # of Attacks can represent that, too. Plus, the scales of 1-10 and 1-6 don't leave much room for variation.

The issue here is that these guys need to take a hit somewhere. They're Monstrous Fast Cavalry, people. With a friggin' Ward save.
Since Wood Elves struggle against big blocks of Steadfast troops, I figured lots of S4 attacks would be preferable to fewer S5 ones. If you want a unit of all S5, all the time models, take Treekin.
But let's experiment.

Things like lances and spears (and, following the same logic, antler-points) grant +S on the charge because they use their weight and speed to plow into the enemy lines.
Impact Hits are a different way to illustrate this exact same thing. One model should not have both abilities.

And Impact Hits are resolved at the model's Strength. I'm not going to mess with that. It leads to confusion situations.

So...if the math worked out before with A3+D3 impact + 1 Stomp at S4, what makes more sense for S5?
- A1, D3 Impact
- A3, 1 Impact

Let's clarify this once more: this is a M9 unit with WS5 I5 models involved, and they happen to have a Ward save to boot. They need to have some kind of downfall compared to the other Monstrous Cavalry.

On to Talismanic Tattoos: in the current book, they grant, what, a 6+ Ward and MR1?
If these ones offered MR2, instead of improving a Ward by 1, it would change the following:
- Wild Riders would go from a 4+ to a 5+ Ward.
- Wardancers would go from a 5+ to a 6+ Ward, but I'd bump them back to a 5+.

So overall, Wild Riders would be more resistant to spells, but less durable to other stuff, whereas Wardancers would be just as durable, but more so against spells.

On the Standard of Ariel: don't compare it to the Stormbanner. Because that item is way too good, because it has a 50-50 chance of breaking every turn after the 1st, and because it effects the whole board, not just your enemy. And it grounds flying units and sometimes stops war machines, instead of letting the bearer move through terrain.
They're totally different items.
Also, it takes Skaven longer than 2 turns to get into combat in such a way that they have a hope of winning.

Move over water features, through buildings and cliff faces, and -1 to be shot at for any unit within 12", for the entire game. That seems pretty good to me. I mean, we could change the -1 to be shot to -1 to be hit in CC, or to MR2. I just think that the Big Standard should be focused on Elves more so than Forest Spirits, and it would be pretty easy with this banner to make a list that does a lot of dancing around to avoid combat. So a penalty to being shot would be good.

Regeneration (4+) is okay. It's pretty bland, considering this is one of the Big Items in the book. It isn't worth 70pts to improve Eternal Guard's Regeneration by 1, but giving Regeneration (4+) to a unit with no special saves is worth more than 70pts. It's an option, I suppose.

Another idea: instead of all that, the unit and the bearer are now Ethereal and Unstable. A cool image, but I don't think anyone would ever take it, seeing as how Eternal Guard are Stubborn. Just a thought.

Here's an idea. Have the Stags be Str4, and their Horns give them +1 str on the charge. And further clarify that this increases the str of their impact hits as well.


Great Stag:

M9 WS4 BS0 Str4 T4 W3 I4 A2 Ld7

Unit Type: Monstrous Beast

Special Rules: Impact Hits(D3)

Thick Skinned: The rider of a Great Stag adds +2 to his armor save instead of the usual +1 for being mounted

Antlers: Great Stags gains +1str in the next round of combat on a turn they complete a successful charge. This strength bonus applies to the Stags impact hits.



Where they'll take the hit so to speak is in their point cost.

With my suggested profile, I'd cost a Stag Rider at 55 pts if the rider doesn't have any additional armor save and no better than a 5+ ward.