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Made in au
Tough Tyrant Guard







PhantomViper wrote:
 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
That isn't fun for anyone really, at least that I've seen.


Except for your opponent that perfectly positioned his models to lure you into making and failing that charge.

It's not fun for the opponent either because it just made the rest of the game pointless and it is intensely silly and boring.

Tonight I played a game that came down to my opponent trying to kill my warlock. He thought he could probably get his colossal into melee. I thought he probably couldn't. It turns out I was right, and so instead of getting to do something interesting like, say, make attacks with his 19-point model, he failed his charge and the game was essentially over. That is dumb and not as fun as if he had been able to say, well, okay, this isn't going to make it into melee so I'll attack something different and maybe it will be a game.


If you opponent's colossal was trying to get into melee with your Warcaster, then you could have known 100% if he was going to fail or succeed by simply measuring your warlock's control range and so would your opponent.

If the game was dependant on that single movement, then your opponent shouldn't have made it if he wasn't 100% sure that he was going to make it. He took a gamble and he lost. Worse than that, he took a gamble that he could have avoided. That is not the game's fault, that is the player's.

In this case, the colossal had a much larger threat range than my caster had control area, so I had no way of telling if it was in range or not.

I'm not interested in whose "fault" it is. These situations come up constantly in Warmachine, and when they do they usually make the game less fun, because someone has some big smashy thing that is not getting to do any kind of big smashy, and that's boring, and it's boring for both players when that model is flatfooted and dies to no particular effect. Premeasuring would help reduce the number of those situations.

Furthermore, *amazing thread title tie-in* it would increase the weight of tactics by decreasing the emphasis on being able to eyeball distances. Then we can all be even more smugly superior in how much more tactical our pet game is than 40k!
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

In this case, the colossal had a much larger threat range than my caster had control area, so I had no way of telling if it was in range or not.

I'm not interested in whose "fault" it is. These situations come up constantly in Warmachine, and when they do they usually make the game less fun, because someone has some big smashy thing that is not getting to do any kind of big smashy, and that's boring, and it's boring for both players when that model is flatfooted and dies to no particular effect. Premeasuring would help reduce the number of those situations.


Maybe those situations make the game less fun for you, but they are the reasons that make the game more fun for allot of other people. I don't care about rolling dice, if I did I would still be playing GW games, I care about outsmarting and outplaying my opponent.

If I can make my opponent 19pt model useless simply by virtue of positioning, that is pretty awesome in my book.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Furthermore, *amazing thread title tie-in* it would increase the weight of tactics by decreasing the emphasis on being able to eyeball distances. Then we can all be even more smugly superior in how much more tactical our pet game is than 40k!


No it wouldn't, it would actually diminish the weight of tactics because it would make positioning meaningless. Removing options from a game make it less tactical, not more.

   
Made in au
Tough Tyrant Guard







That's like saying positioning is meaningless in chess - it's precisely backwards. Removing a mechanic from a game makes the others carry more weight.

In any event, if you prefer the mindless gotcha moments based on distance perception to a deeply satisfying tactical and strategic interplay between the opponents, that is your prerogative and there's nothing wrong with that.
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
That's like saying positioning is meaningless in chess - it's precisely backwards. Removing a mechanic from a game makes the others carry more weight.


Have you ever played chess competitively? I would guess not. Again, for those that don't know this: Chess is a very tactically limited game due to the limited way in each piece moves and the finite number of positions that this implies.

Also removing a mechanic from a game only accomplishment is reducing the number of available options. Less options means less tactics that one can employ. If I can't deal with that Colossal by baiting him into a bad position, then you've just cut a percentage of my possible tactical answers. How is that more tactical?

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
In any event, if you prefer the mindless gotcha moments based on distance perception to a deeply satisfying tactical and strategic interplay between the opponents, that is your prerogative and there's nothing wrong with that.


That "distance perception" crap is a myth. I'm a Continental European, my only contact with measurements in inches is on the table top so that causes my distance perception skill in inches to be completely useless.

WMH is an open information game, every move that your opponent makes you have to know about. You can use this information and some simple math to calculate distances with a very high degree of accuracy. You can also use every other tactical option that the game gives you to achieve the same result, be it shooting a ranged weapon from another unit to the more straightforward control range measurement.

Those are only mindless gotcha moments if all you are interested is in pushing models forward and rolling dice without giving any thought to where your models are. If you think that that is "tactical and strategic interplay" you don't really understand what those terms mean.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 16:09:27


 
   
Made in au
Tough Tyrant Guard







I think you'd find that Warmachine breaks down pretty fast too if subjected to the sort of analysis that's been done on chess. I bet it would be pretty fascinating to try!
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I think you'd find that Warmachine breaks down pretty fast too if subjected to the sort of analysis that's been done on chess. I bet it would be pretty fascinating to try!


It is fascinating and is something that is studied a fair bit in AI classes, especially in computer game design degrees.

Think about this: how come we can develop computers that give human chess master a run for their money, but we can't seem to replicate that level of AI sophistication for other tactical games?

Its because deep down chess is a very simple game with a very straightforward set of rules. That allows a computer to do what it does best: analyse a pre-determined set of conditions and decide what is the best course of action based on those conditions. And given the limited number of moves that each piece can do, that allows the computer to extrapolate much further into future possible plays.

Now if you take a game that has virtually limitless move possibilities for each unit like WMH or Starcraft (or practically any other miniature or computer strategy game), and the number of plays that a computer can see into the future is reduced to the immediate moment and in those conditions the human brain can adapt much faster than a computer can.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Strategy games that don't have a set amount of outcomes can't really have a good AI programmed into them for the reasons Phantomviper said. Its simply too complicated for the computer to handle. The real cause of this complication is the fact the game occurs in 3-d space. Not in a 2-d grid of points.

 jonolikespie wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
I disagree. Warmachine would not remain balanced if you were allowed to premeasure everything. Lots of abilities revolve around not being able to premeasure.

How do you think it would go if PP did a proper Mk3 ruleset built from the ground up with premeasuring included?


If it was totally rebuilt with premeasuring in mind then it would be ok. But as it is, the game requires you not to be able to premeasure. It would change the game completely if they did that. I couldn't say it would be a good or bad change, but as the game is perfectly fine right now I say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 17:10:27


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Made in us
Abel





Washington State

So the thread has now devolved to pre-measuring, eh?

Why is it that so many people want Warmachine to become like 40K?

Pre-measuring would alter Warmachine/Hordes in a fundamental way and change the game experience (for the worse IMHO). No one, and I mean NO ONE, EVER mentioned pre-measuring in 40K before 6th Edition came out. It wasn't even considered. And then it happened. What else happened? The game designers had to compensate in some way for taking away the "randomness" of position and placement of models. How did they do it? By random charge distance. Running a random distance. Deepstrike scatter. Snap shots, overwatch, random sweeping advances, and consolidation moves. All these things were changed to compensate for being allowed to pre-measure.

The limited amount of pre-measuring you are allowed in Warmachine and Hordes is fine. Being able to measure your warcaster/warlock control area at any time is a good enough pre-measure for me.

Stop trying to make Warmachine/Hordes into 40K!

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

PhantomViper wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:

Wow what a staggering amount of arrogance and passive aggressiveness allow me to retort...........

I said "bad "as you constantly in all you posts say how the specific game you enjoy and its mechanisms are so very superior - espeically in regard to "tactics" - its entirely obvious that you feel that very people could ever reach your high plateau of skill and tactical knowledge - it must be very cold up there on the mountain.

Yeah you are so right - Malifaux does not require thought - no does any other game except your perfect WM/H...................

Love the way you gnore other people saying the same as me that perhaps maybe games are better with it but I guess that selective reading comprehension for you.


And there you go again...

In the very next post to the one that I say that a game isn't better or worse than the other you again resort to putting terms like "superior" and "better" in my mouth...

More Complex != Superior / Inferior, one thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. And I didn't said anywhere that Malifaux didn't require thinking. What I said was that it didn't require as much thinking when it comes to model placement, because all the measurements are known beforehand, and that it didn't require as much thinking put into mathematically analysing the distances involved, because all distances are known.

Malifaux's tactical complexity come from an even more complex unit activation model and from the bigger impact that the resource management aspect has in the outcome of the game. It presents its players with a distinct range of tactical choices than the ones that are presented in a game of WMH. AND THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE GAME BETTER OR WORSE THAN WMH, JUST DIFFERENT!

Is English your first language? You flag implies that it is, but with the difficulties that you continuously demonstrate, first in interpreting simple game rules and now in interpreting simple posts, it is starting to make me wonder.


As I said - your passive agressive style is both very clear and familiar. but back to your argument.

No your still missing the point - of course Malifaux requires as much or even more thinking precisely because you know the distance - therefore you are making a descion based on facts - not on (at best informed) guess work or how well you can eyeball distances.

Not pre-mesuring means that this particular aspect ot the game - where and how you move your figures is based on guess work and gambling - which is precisley what you later go on to say you dislike???? I am sorry I do not understand this.

WM/H allows partial and limited forms of pre-measuring (for whatever reason) which you seem fine with?

If the game was dependant on that single movement, then your opponent shouldn't have made it if he wasn't 100% sure that he was going to make it. He took a gamble and he lost. Worse than that, he took a gamble that he could have avoided. That is not the game's fault, that is the player's.


Stop trying to make Warmachine/Hordes into 40K!
No one here is - they are different games, at different scales, in different genres - As I have said before there is really zero point in comparing them except for one side to score points saying - my game is the bestest because..........X

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 18:00:50


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Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







I think what it boils down to is that pre-measuring doesn't exist
in Warmachine/Hordes because of the Highlander immortal feel
control areas give you.

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Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




It also kind of keeps the steam punkish feel. Until modern times there was no way to tell if you were in range of the enemy until you shot. So, like in the old days, if you are wrong in your range estimate then you may end up SOL. If your game hinges on one charge/spell being the difference between winning and losing I fail to see how just reaching/failling short is any less dramatic than rolling a die and achieving a success or failing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/02/10 19:02:09


 
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

BTW, supporting premeasuring does NOT mean you prefer 40K or want the game to become 40K. I specifically moved away from 40K and have no interest in playing 40K, premeasuring or not. However, I do think premeasuring might've been one of the few things GW got right and improved on. IMO it is a trend that more than one game has started and I like it.

I've heard people say, "I don't like pre-measuring" and "It would not allow me to take advantage of newbies and others poor choices instead of relying on my own skill to win" (I may be paraphrasing somewhat ). But no one has really presented any real reason why it wouldn't work. "It would break the game!!!11!" OK, give some examples of how it would break things. I have yet to see any specific (or even general) situations that he game would break. Or even a model, rule or ability that would be broken or unusable.

So I challenge everyone who does not support pre-measuring to give a specific ability, model or situation where it would break the game.

I'll even help you out! Reinholdt's spyglass ability. It would be a pointless ability, but the model would still be quite valuable for his other skills which are used much more often. So not really breaking a model.

Anything else that would be terribly broken?
   
Made in au
Tough Tyrant Guard







Anything that relies on information that's currently hidden would be a bit less disruptive, so things like Old Witch/Harbinger feats, areas of other effects like anti-magic bubbles or rough terrain (e.g. Inhospitable Ground). You would be able to measure their effect precisely where now you kinda have to guess and possibly plan around maybe being wrong.
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver






MT

 Tamwulf wrote:
So the thread has now devolved to pre-measuring, eh?

Why is it that so many people want Warmachine to become like 40K?

Pre-measuring would alter Warmachine/Hordes in a fundamental way and change the game experience (for the worse IMHO). No one, and I mean NO ONE, EVER mentioned pre-measuring in 40K before 6th Edition came out. It wasn't even considered. And then it happened. What else happened? The game designers had to compensate in some way for taking away the "randomness" of position and placement of models. How did they do it? By random charge distance. Running a random distance. Deepstrike scatter. Snap shots, overwatch, random sweeping advances, and consolidation moves. All these things were changed to compensate for being allowed to pre-measure.

The limited amount of pre-measuring you are allowed in Warmachine and Hordes is fine. Being able to measure your warcaster/warlock control area at any time is a good enough pre-measure for me.

Stop trying to make Warmachine/Hordes into 40K!


Wow...running, deepstrike, sweep advances, and consolidation have not really changed since 5th ed. You can talk about 40k all you want but at least get you story straight.

orks 10000+ points
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Made in us
Zealot




Pre-measuring for everything whenever you wanted in Warmachine/Hordes would make the game more defense and shooting oriented and would strongly move the game away from what it currently is, especially for Steamroller play.

From the very first edition of Prime it was clear that Warmachine was a very offensive based game hence why you can only boost damage and attack rolls and not defense and armor as well as other factors.

Privateer Press should be using resources to make all the stuff that doesn't see as much play time more viable when MKIII comes out as well as reassessing points values and power levels of various models/units.

Not creating a pre-measuring everything at all times based game that would be completely at odds with their own current game design.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Well, premeasuring would mean that there were fewer games decided by silly things like someone thinking they're in range, going for something, then finding out they weren't in range and subsequently losing because of it. Personally, I think moments like that tend to rob both players of a cool game, so I wouldn't really miss them.

When it doesn't come down to win or lose it's not so bad. It's usually when someone estimates a charge wrong and a heavy or caster ends up flatfooted half a millimetre away from where they were trying to go.

Trying to estimate distances can be kinda fun, though. Either way is OK!


On the flip side, you would also lose out on moments where players try to take a long-shot maneuver, find themselves just out of range, and lose their gamble. Or succeeds, because they guessed better than their opponent. Instead, people would simply measure stuff, and that would be that. A lot fewer risky plays.


Would that be such a bad thing? I think it would encourage more actual tactics and reduce the luck/guessing involved

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Wraith






Salem, MA

If you really think pre-measuring would make the game better, try a few games with it and post the battle reports.

As is, the system seems to work for me. Pre-measuring doesn't break anything, but you don't really gain anything either. You know how far you can charge. You know you might not make it. It's tense. Is it deflating when you fail? Sure it is, but that's not a gotcha, that's poor planning coming back at you.

Nothing is a sure thing in Warmachine, but rarely will the dice up and murder you completely. Most competitive players won't go for the kill unless it's more than 70% chance they are going to pull it off, and sometimes not even then.

If you're going to go big for the assassination, you have to risk failing. And not just on dice.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

 Mordekiem wrote:
BTW, supporting premeasuring does NOT mean you prefer 40K or want the game to become 40K. I specifically moved away from 40K and have no interest in playing 40K, premeasuring or not. However, I do think premeasuring might've been one of the few things GW got right and improved on. IMO it is a trend that more than one game has started and I like it.

I've heard people say, "I don't like pre-measuring" and "It would not allow me to take advantage of newbies and others poor choices instead of relying on my own skill to win" (I may be paraphrasing somewhat ). But no one has really presented any real reason why it wouldn't work. "It would break the game!!!11!" OK, give some examples of how it would break things. I have yet to see any specific (or even general) situations that he game would break. Or even a model, rule or ability that would be broken or unusable.

So I challenge everyone who does not support pre-measuring to give a specific ability, model or situation where it would break the game.

I'll even help you out! Reinholdt's spyglass ability. It would be a pointless ability, but the model would still be quite valuable for his other skills which are used much more often. So not really breaking a model.

Anything else that would be terribly broken?

The thing with pre-measuring in warmachine/hordes is that is something that warcasters/warlocks can do through measuring their control areas. Even the journyman/lessers can pre-measure in a way too. There is pre-measuring in this game it just isn't something that you can do ALL the time with measuring distances between every model.

Warmachine is a game where the leader of your army is heroic badass with better stats, abilities, can command robots, and even essentially pre-measure with his control area. So pre-measureing is another way that your warcasters is more badass than random trencher #72. This a feature not a bug.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/11 17:43:19


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Florida

Pre-measuring makes sense in the far grimdark future where everyone has lazer eyes and guns can hit anywhere on the table at any time (with bullets that zigzag around trees).

I prefer the "fog of war", but really control area and no *other* pre-measuring is just a mechanic.

Ya know what's really tactical? Having all of your special rules in different books so your opponent never knows whether or not you are just making crap up. TACTICS!

\m/ 
   
Made in se
Wicked Warp Spider






Ios

My take on the original question of the thread, and I do apologise if I missed someone bringing this up, is that tactics is about influencing the outcome by decisions. In a game with dice rolling, this means making decisions that will influence the outcome of the dice, what dice to roll, and so on. The more dice rolling you do the less tactics you do during the game.
This is most apparent in Warhammer where you get more dice rolls. You roll a dice to determine what time of day it is (after setting up models, because a no general ever knew what time of day it was when ordering troops around), you roll a dice to determine if you can cast a spell, you roll a dice to determine how far someone can run, you roll a dice to determine your objectives this round, and so on.
Pre-measuring is just removing one number of the equation to determine what makes a player better than another. It's a skill and the game developer can decide whether to allow it to influence the game or not.

Warhammer has tactics, but the dice determine more there and together with very long ranges on weapons, target priority is more important than any other commanding skill once the game has begun.
Warmachine, simply walking a model up into close combat or out of it is a very important tactical move and I don't feel Warhammer has this. There is also a case of Warmachine having a back arc which you can only find in the very awkward rules for vehicles in Warhammer (now tell me the back arc of a spherical vehicle like the Falcon).

Put simply: position matters more in Warmachine and there is more room for manoeuvres.

I really need to stay away from the 40K forums. 
   
Made in us
Zealous Sin-Eater



Chico, CA

 Geemoney wrote:
 Tamwulf wrote:
So the thread has now devolved to pre-measuring, eh?

Why is it that so many people want Warmachine to become like 40K?

Pre-measuring would alter Warmachine/Hordes in a fundamental way and change the game experience (for the worse IMHO). No one, and I mean NO ONE, EVER mentioned pre-measuring in 40K before 6th Edition came out. It wasn't even considered. And then it happened. What else happened? The game designers had to compensate in some way for taking away the "randomness" of position and placement of models. How did they do it? By random charge distance. Running a random distance. Deepstrike scatter. Snap shots, overwatch, random sweeping advances, and consolidation moves. All these things were changed to compensate for being allowed to pre-measure.

The limited amount of pre-measuring you are allowed in Warmachine and Hordes is fine. Being able to measure your warcaster/warlock control area at any time is a good enough pre-measure for me.

Stop trying to make Warmachine/Hordes into 40K!


Wow...running, deepstrike, sweep advances, and consolidation have not really changed since 5th ed. You can talk about 40k all you want but at least get you story straight.


Wow 4 in his list not changed, sadly they should of been if GW cared about the rules over model sells. Not rewriting all the rules (that every rule in the game) to work with every other rules in the game is one of GW biggest problem. Thanks for pointing that out.

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