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Request: legal or not?

Command squad (follows captain on bike):

5x Veterans. (apothecary)
5x bike / 5x stormshield / 5x plasmapistol / 5x pair of LC / 5x meltabombs / 1x standard-bearer.

or ?

Not quite. They can't take pairs of LC. They are stuck with 1 only.

Otherwise, it's fine.

Is it not =>
"every veteran can replace his chainsword and/or boltpistol" => replace chainsword with the following:

lightning-claw xx points
pair of lightning-claw double-xx points

and "every veteran can replace his boltpistol with a plasmapistol" => replace boltpistol with plasmapistol

They can take a pair if you don't take a plasma pistol, but since you won't get +1 A for dual LCs anyway because of the Storm Shield. You're best off with Shield/PPistol/LC.

Also, RAW question: Can the Apothecary take any upgrades honestly? It reads "Any Veteran can.." but does it say the Apothecary is technically also a Veteran? But it stands to reason that just like you can't further upgrade a Company Champion after buying him, you can't ugrade a Apothecary. Thoughts?

Edit @ 1hadhq: Reading it (in the English dex) you replace CS/BP for a LC @ X pts. Which means you can replace the CS for LC @ X, then the BP for another LC @ X. (Thus the XX cost) But following that, you can replace your BP for a PP @ Y points. Unfortunately, you cannot replace your BP for a PP because you already replaced it with a second LC. Understand? (And yes I've heard your german dex reads differently so I am just trying to explain how the RAW are in the english dex)

So, following that (not easy), what would a pair of lightning claws cost them then?

Smashotron wrote:They can take a pair if you don't take a plasma pistol, but since you won't get +1 A for dual LCs anyway because of the Storm Shield. You're best off with Shield/PPistol/LC.

Also, RAW question: Can the Apothecary take any upgrades honestly? It reads "Any Veteran can.." but does it say the Apothecary is technically also a Veteran? But it stands to reason that just like you can't further upgrade a Company Champion after buying him, you can't ugrade a Apothecary. Thoughts?

Variant german: apothecary has his gear in the basic equipment in (...)plus the same as the veterans.
Thought:
A) he can take options like the vets because he is no upgraded veteran with restricted options like the company champ.
B)a veteran can be upgraded to standard-bearer but there is no mention to restrict his options,so if one vet can have a standart plus options( one hand needed for his job),the apothecary may also take options (equipment is one-handed,maybe integrated).

Edit @ 1hadhq: Reading it (in the English dex) you replace CS/BP for a LC @ X pts. Which means you can replace the CS for LC @ X, then the BP for another LC @ X. (Thus the XX cost) But following that, you can replace your BP for a PP @ Y points. Unfortunately, you cannot replace your BP for a PP because you already replaced it with a second LC. Understand? (And yes I've heard your german dex reads differently so I am just trying to explain how the RAW are in the english dex)

Variant German:
option=standartbearer.
option=company champ.
option=bikes
weapon opt. all vets=> mode : and/or =>
stormbolter,flamer,meltagun,plasmagun,all 3types of combibolter,powersword,lightningclaw,thunderhammer,PAIR of lightningclaws.
weapon opt.all vets = boltpistol => plasmapistol
option all vets= meltabombs,stormshield

we don't need to take 1x Lc and 1x Lc .

Questionable:
replace1x one-handed weapon with 1xone-handed weapon and replace 2x one-handed weapon with 1x two-handed weapon?
This is sadly not stated at page 128.

I'm asking here for your english version to know if the weapon-options are different
Our (german dex) explanation on page 128 is a little foggy :S

Alpharius wrote:So, following that (not easy), what would a pair of lightning claws cost them then?

points for a pair of LC = thunderhammer

Here's our entry:
link to copyrighted information removed --yakface


In the English dex, one Veteran can "carry the Company Standard" which implies he is still also privileged to other Veteran upgrades because it didn't replace anything.

The Company Champion is an upgrade which implies, IMO, that he receives a power weapon and combat shield in addition to his gear, but can take no further upgrades because he stops counting as a "Veteran".

The Apothecary, from the start, is listed as an Apothecary. All the upgrades are for "Veterans" so I read it as the only upgrade you can give an Apothecary is a bike; when it reads "The entire squad may ride Space Marine bikes for X pts."

I'm not sure what's right. That's just my interpretation.

@Smashotron:

The command-squad is exactly the same as in my german codex

One exception: after -powerfist we get -pair of lighning claws followed by -thunderhammer.

Don't know why we have one entry more than you. :S

Then by RAW you are correct, but it isn't RAI and I doubt any opponent would let you play with dual LCs and a PP.

BUT, like my original post, you shouldn't worry about buying the second LC because (based on the Storm Shield rules) you won't get +1 A anyway. Save yourself 75 points, and just buy 1 LC, a PP and a Shield. That's my plan, or I was thinking of 4(or 5?) meltaguns on bike.

RAI for command-squad may have been to allow 2xLC on veterans in vehicles or at foot.

I believe the options were split up to allow to replace 2-handed weapons with 2-handed weapons.
Plus allow to replace boltpistol with plasmapistol.
Plus allow to get a stormshield.

Maybe the option should be written like:

replace chainsword with: followed by one-handed CCW's.
replace boltpistol with: followed by plasmapistol.
replace chainsword and boltpistol with: followed by 2-handed weapons or pairs of 1-handed weapons.
buy a stormshield.

less confusing and needs the same space on the page.

@Smashotron: good idea to field 4x special weapons with bikes.

Not really sure why youd want to do it anyway though, I know this is a rules forum but you're talking about 435(just quick math) for a unit of 5 bikers with 3+ saves. nearly 90 pts a model, for S5 T5 and A3(or 4 not sure if bikes add an attack) its just not worth it, especially because you cant consolidate into combat, I just dont think they stack up well against other elite type units, and almost 450 pts for a 5 man non scoring unit is alot. Even if they do have a 3+ invul save and T5.

If the german codex is written as you said with

"can replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with:...

...2 Lightning Claws"

Then you could in theory replace your chainsword with 2 lightning claws, your bolt pistol with a plasma pistol and additionally take a storm shield.

Under the english dex this would not be valid.

But, as people have said it's fairly pointless to do with a storm shield because under the wargear section it says "a model equipped with a storm shield can never claim the +1 attack bonus for being armed with 2 close combat weapons in an assault". You can't forgoe the inv save in close combat in exchange for using your second weapon or anything similar, you allways must use the storm shield if you have it effectively.

Although it's worth noting that this discrepency means under the english codex a model could not take 2 lightning claws and retain any form of pistol while 1had's german codex allows it.

Regarding the apothecaries taking the wargear upgrades, At first I thought it was just silly pedantics but looking back at it now I'm not so sure. It would have been easy enough to not give the apothecary his own stat line and just say "one veteran in the squad is an apothecary and is additionally equipped with a narthecium". RAW he doesn't appear to ever be a veteran though

Drunkspleen wrote:If the german codex is written as you said with

"can replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with:...

...2 Lightning Claws"

Then you could in theory replace your chainsword with 2 lightning claws, your bolt pistol with a plasma pistol and additionally take a storm shield.

Under the english dex this would not be valid.

But, as people have said it's fairly pointless to do with a storm shield because under the wargear section it says "a model equipped with a storm shield can never claim the +1 attack bonus for being armed with 2 close combat weapons in an assault". You can't forgoe the inv save in close combat in exchange for using your second weapon or anything similar, you allways must use the storm shield if you have it effectively.

Although it's worth noting that this discrepency means under the english codex a model could not take 2 lightning claws and retain any form of pistol while 1had's german codex allows it.

Regarding the apothecaries taking the wargear upgrades, At first I thought it was just silly pedantics but looking back at it now I'm not so sure. It would have been easy enough to not give the apothecary his own stat line and just say "one veteran in the squad is an apothecary and is additionally equipped with a narthecium". RAW he doesn't appear to ever be a veteran though

Take a look at the assault squad (english codex), the sergeant there may also swap his pistol and/or sword with a pair of lightning claws.

Webbe wrote:
Take a look at the assault squad (english codex), the sergeant there may also swap his pistol and/or sword with a pair of lightning claws.

Which he cannot in a german dex.

Should this be a spread the option for a pair of LC over units and languages joke by GW ?
Germany = command squad marines > Pair of LC
UK,US =assault squad-Sgt > Pair of LC

What benefit would you even get with a pair of LC vs 1 LC and PP?

2 LC = Extra Attack in CC. 1 PP and 1 LC means you can shoot.

Harkainos wrote:What benefit would you even get with a pair of LC vs 1 LC and PP?

The benefit of the actual rules.
Every2nd weapon used in HtH gives a +1 attack.
Except LC ,thunderhammer,powerfist.These 3 must be used as pair to grant a 2nd attack.
Rulebook page 42.
LC + PP would be statline number of attacks. LC+LC would be statline +1 attack.

Both get to re-roll wounds. And in the case of the OP, there is no benefit to 2LC, 1 PP, SS because the SS denies the 2LCs' their +1A.

Thats a fact to make these selection of weapons not really good but legal.
The model would need LCs to wear and a pistol holstered and a stormshield strapped to his armor.Looks weird.

But> if the wargear is bought as supposed by some,this marine could also get 2x options for his basic chainsword+boltpistol.
RAW could lead to 2x plasmagun or 4x LC .+ the option of a stormshield. He may look like a overburdened ork then.

My intention is to find out if the and/or in the options is reliable or not.

I know already that GW missed to write the termies invul/save into the German codex.
Now they say it gets fixed with errata. After some calls and e/mails.

Dual plasma guns would look hilarious but serve to game purpose, and unfortunately he wouldn't have a spare hand to protect his face.

the and/or option is fine, although I don't think they should have ever listed 2 weapons together in that list.

It's just a list that you get to make a decision from once per weapon, I don't get why you are so confused about how it works?

I think we all understand the RAI, but it's how it has been written that could lead to awkward abuse. Technically an abusive gamer could claim +1 A and re-rollable wounds for having 2 LC and 1 PP, which isn't feasible IMO at least not if the player plans on shooting the pistol.

Reason to be confused?

Maybe a weapon list that has 2handed and 1handed weapons in it.This allows me to take i.e.:
2x stormbolter=>will I get now twice the shots of a single stormbolter each turn?
2x pair of LC.=> why should i want pairs of LC plus another weapon? to switch and shoot perhaps?
And 4 LC are mutant only and should not be in Codex loyalists.
1x meltagun and 1x flamer => maybe fine to switch and use only one a time.
2x relic blade => this means 4 hands to use? I hope WYSIWYG protects us.
command squads with extra stormshield => 2xCCW + 1x stormshield. Why is the Stormshield not integrated in "and/or" ?
No models for 2x ......? from GW?