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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 03:34:55
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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While this probably would win an award for being a beardy tactic I would like to know if it is legal.
Suppose there is an enemy unit on foot. You run two vehicles up behind them in a V keeping the distance 1" apart. Next you run two more vehicles, one behind the other, into the V cutting off any possible avenue of escape. The forward vehicle tank shocks the enemy unit and the rear vehicle seals off the V. If the enemy unit cannot destroy the forward tanking shocking vehicle there is no place for them to go that is not less than 1" from the sealed V... so they are all destroyed. Correct?
Units that have to move due to a tank shock can move underneath the tank shocking lead vehicle but would be trapped by the rear tank and unable to escape from the sealed off V.
It's not as easy to do as it might sound but I think versus a small enemy unit it would be possible.
G
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/09 03:36:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 06:31:23
Subject: Re:Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Widowmaker
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They would have to be falling back before being destroyed. page 45. If they break they're toast
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 07:00:48
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Confessor Of Sins
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There's no provision in Tank Shock itself for destroying a unit automatically. If they fail the LD for having to move they might be toast, ofc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 10:08:38
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
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They would be destroyed, and its not beardy at all. Its a sound tatic that requires at least 6 of your vehicles to be in the same 1' x 1' square.
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Quote: Gwar - What Inquisitor said.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 11:59:09
Subject: Re:Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sslimey Sslyth
Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.
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Where again in the rulebook does it specifically state that a unit that DOES NOT break after a tank shock is destroyed if it has nowhere to go? I seem to have forgotten where it says that.
...oh thats right, it doenst.
Its a situation not covered in the rules. I dont understand how you can just throw up your hands and say "Oh well, I guess your 400 some odd pt unit must be destroyed! Isnt 40k fun?"
You cannot trap and destroy enemy units that didnt break after the tank shock in 5e. In 4e it was iffy.
The rule states that models are simply moved out of the way if the tank winds up in a spot that was previously taken up by troopers. According to that rule, you need to simply put the troopers SOMEWHERE out of the way still in the immediate vicinity.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 12:27:20
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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Models must be at least 1" away from enemy units except during assaults. Shane I know this one bothers you but let's view this logically. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it automatically doesn't work.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 12:37:27
Subject: Re:Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Average Orc Boy
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I wouldnt care if it works or not simply because the number of vehicles not to mention amount of pts you have to sink into those "Tank Crusher Tactic" doesnt worth it in any way.
Your tanks will be clumped up just to crush some 100pts?
If I have 6 vehicles on the table I can imagine 40k better things to do with than that but nice thinking outside the box
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 12:41:56
Subject: Re:Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
Amarillo, TX
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It says you must stay 1" away during the movement phase: yes; however, where does it state that if you move, without being broken and fleeing, within an inch of an enemy unit you are destroyed? It only says that you can't. You must end your movement or avoid the trouble unit.
If they unit breaks from the tank shock then yeah....toast; but, if they don't break then the only rules they are subject to are: they must move out of the tanks way, and they can't come within an inch.
So, you would probably inadvertently give them field position because they only way they could move is the way that the vehicle, that preformed the shock, came.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2008/12/09 12:44:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 12:42:45
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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I never said it is worth doing. I just wanted to check here got an objective view. Rhinos are about 2 bases wide by 4 models long... so using them would not be very effective unless it was a very small number of models.
Y
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 12:44:46
Subject: Re:Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sslimey Sslyth
Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.
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Ok, lets veiw it logically.
Pg 68
"If some models in the unit would end up underneath the vehicle(no difference whether falling back or not), models must me moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherancy."
Very simple actually, move the models out of the way, 1" away from the offending vehicle in the most appropriate location. Simple enough. Nowhere in the rules does it say that the tanks will block off avenues of escape, nowhere does it say that you even NEED an out, most importantly nowhere does it even HINT at a unit being able to be trapped/destroyed in this manner.
pg 45
The actual "TRAPPED" rules are concerning units that are "falling back". Movement of an unbroken unit is NOT a fall back, it is a simple adjustment of appropriate models. Therefore, the rules for "TRAPPED" do not apply here.
There is nothing in the rulebook to support the destruction of a unit in this manner....NOTHING.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 12:53:05
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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shane they can only move under the tank shocking vehicle.. But not the other three. Agreed?
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 12:54:00
Subject: Re:Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sister Oh-So Repentia
Amarillo, TX
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Bingo....Shane nailed it on the head. I was hunting for the wording and he beat me to it  .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 13:05:42
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sslimey Sslyth
Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.
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Green Blow Fly wrote:shane they can only move under the tank shocking vehicle.. But not the other three. Agreed?
G
So now what? We're going to concoct some weird "never gonna happen during a game" occurence that the models moving underneath the tank shocking vehicle are still somehow trapped by other vehicles? Vehicles just "moving" and not "tank shocking" I suppose that are moving along with the "tank shocking" vehicle?
*sigh*
Whats next? During the shooting phase I have to roll saves in batches right? What happens if I roll a single batch of saves but dont have quite enough dice to roll the whole batch? I suppose the guys that arent represented by dice 'fail' their saves since I didnt have enough dice to go 'round?
The rules say, move the models out of the way. The "trapped" rules do not apply since the unit is not falling back. What more does one need to realise that the unit will not be destroyed?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 13:10:43
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Green Blow Fly wrote:shane they can only move under the tank shocking vehicle.. But not the other three. Agreed?
I would say not, since it doesn't say to ignore the normal movement rules.
But that still only gives you a situation that the rules don't cover. There is nothing that says the unit is destroyed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 13:14:35
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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So if they cannot move such that they are not more than one inch away from the three vehicles they are not destroyed? That was basically how close hatching worked.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 13:27:16
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Green Blow Fly wrote:So if they cannot move such that they are not more than one inch away from the three vehicles they are not destroyed?
Can you find a rule that says that they are destroyed?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 13:28:57
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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It will have to wait until tonight. Is crossfire a precedence?
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 13:42:25
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sslimey Sslyth
Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.
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Green Blow Fly wrote:It will have to wait until tonight. Is crossfire a precedence?
G
There are no "crossfire" rules anymore. so no.
The rule you're trying to use to destroy the unit is "trapped" and it doenst apply here because the unit is not falling back.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 13:54:24
Subject: Re:Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Bane Knight
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Deadshane1 wrote:Pg 68
"If some models in the unit would end up underneath the vehicle(no difference whether falling back or not), models must me moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherancy."
Shane hit it on the head with this one. You can tank spam an entire section of the board with nowhere to place mini's and your troops will just pop out the other end. You can not do this. As cool as it seems it can not be done..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 14:03:01
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation
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wont work. the second two vehicles. you will have to move the tank shocking tank before you bring up a tank behind it, if your oponent doesn't stun imobilize or destroy your tank the troops can be place "out of the way" behind the tank shocking tank.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 14:14:09
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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The rule on page 68 only applies to the vehicle that is tank shocking.
Yes I was talking about the trapped rule.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 14:26:46
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sslimey Sslyth
Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.
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If you're talking about the "trapped" rule then you've answered your own question.
again, since the unit isnt broken or 'falling back' its not destroyed. The "trapped" rules do not apply to it. You therefore go back to the tank shock rules and solve the issue as best you can with the rules there. I.E. move models out of the way 1" away from enemy models and within coherancy.
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I have never failed to seize on 4+ in my life!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 14:34:05
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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I will read the rulebook tonight then discuss this further.
: )
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 14:35:49
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Sslimey Sslyth
Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.
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I got it right here with me at work! Like I said, pick up that black reach version.
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I have never failed to seize on 4+ in my life!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 15:38:52
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Shane is right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 15:55:26
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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I have the Black Reach version but I don't carry it to work with me.
Well it is looking like more people agree with you Shane.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 16:19:42
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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I think Shane is correct as well. Not tactful at all, but correct.
It wouldn't really be all that hard to pull off in game with a little impassable terrain. A 8" stretch of wall or cliff, park a rhino behind the unit, a landraider to one side (perhaps tankshocking the unit with the landraider to get them bunched up) , and roll another rhino in to squish 'em. Granted, it would only destroy the unit if they broke, and after it happened once your opponant would watch out for it, but it isn't really impossible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 16:33:11
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Confessor Of Sins
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Not hard to pull off but mostly a waste of resources unless it's the last enemy unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 16:55:32
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Fixture of Dakka
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... or a kill point game.
So anyways what happens to the unit? They cannot pass through the vehicle behind the tank shocking vehicle or the two setup in a V. You just leave them closer than one inch to the vehicles? The rules do not state they can move underneath the second vehicle following the tank shocker.
My opinion is that people rejecting this do so because they do not like it. So far no one has successfully explained what happens to the unit.
G
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/09 17:09:04
Subject: Using vehicles to trap & destroy enemy units...
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Snivelling Workbot
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The models being shocked will move to a location near where the tank shocking vehicle came from, ie, they'll swap places and end up behind the vehicle if nowhere else to go.
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