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I've spent 45 minutes on various search engines and digging through books trying to figure out an answer to this question, to no avail. So if it's already been answered somewhere, my apologies for bringing it up again.

I'll keep the example simple, although I can think of progressively more complicated situations that are similar.

Opponent has an outflanking unit coming onto the board and rolls for his left side. Unfortunately that entire side has a wall of my troops standing shoulder to shoulder all the way across that edge, leaving him no place to deploy his outflankers, nor to move them past my troops since there is no way to fit his bases between the gaps between my bases.

What happens?

Do they come in on the other side? What if that side is blocked too? Do they go back into reserves? Are they destroyed? Does the very fabric of space-time rip asunder, ending the universe?

Destroyed.

While the outflanking units would be destroyed, I really doubt the situation would ever come up.

First, to cover 48" (4ft table edge) with less than 1" gap between each figure would require 25 models spaced just under 1" apart, and would be hard to maintain since any casualties would instantly open up holes.

Second, given the deployment types in the rulebook (spearhead, pitched battle, dawn of war), it's going to take several turns just to get regular infantry into position to cover an entire table edge. That's several turns that those infantry units probably aren't really contributing to the battle.

Third (and finally) if someone actually did manage to block the table edges, scouts and infiltrators DON'T have to try and outflank. They could just enter the table edge like regular reserve forces do.

While I agree that the situation is HIGHLY unlikely, the third point is somewhat wrong.
If you have chosen and declared that a given unit is going to outflank (which you do during deployment), your own board-edge is no longer available to that unit.

Well, what happened was this:

We handed each other army lists but neither of us was familiar with the opponents codex so we both shrugged and handed it back.

I won the roll to deploy/go first. I play Guard, set up my tanks, the rest of my army (a LOT of infantry) all have Light Infantry so will be infiltrating (but not outflanking) after his deployment.

His deployment, he places nothing, informs me he's running some sort of bike-heavy Space Marine list where virtually everything is outflanking, with the exception of a drop pod full of troops.

At which point we got to discussing what would happen if I then put my infiltrators shoulder to shoulder along the short table edges. Which I had more than enough infantry to do. Neither of us knew. We dug through the book for a few minutes, no answer. Really, it didnt really matter, it being a casual game I wouldnt have blocked the sides anyway since that wouldnt make for much fun. We were just curious what would happen if I had done that.

But between my non-outflanking infiltrators and the fact that I had my turn 1 and turn 2 to shuffle even non-infiltrating units around to block access, it wouldve been easily doable and pretty much an auto-win.

It could also come up with a heavily outflanking army bringing lots of squads in from a table edge but not moving away from it. So during opponents turn anything he outflanks that comes in behind them dies.

You get the idea. I admit it's not something you'll see often but I'm still suprised it isnt addressed in the core book.

If it did happen, I'd say use the failed deep strike table instead. If you roll opponent deploys, your opponent deploys the squad along any table edge where there is room to deploy (even the long sides).

Destroyed.

I believe there is a rule on page 92 that deals with circumventing rules that prevent a unit from moving onto the table.

G

Destroyed

Green Blow Fly wrote:I believe there is a rule on page 92 that deals with circumventing rules that prevent a unit from moving onto the table.

G

Erhm....could you elaborate a bit?

I believe that rule is in reguard to things like Turbo engines for Blood Angels and Rage.Rules that could result in a non-move. For the turn coming in from reserves you are not allowed to use them.
That rule is BRB pg.94

Ssyrie wrote:While the outflanking units would be destroyed, I really doubt the situation would ever come up.

First, to cover 48" (4ft table edge) with less than 1" gap between each figure would require 25 models spaced just under 1" apart, and would be hard to maintain since any casualties would instantly open up holes.

Second, given the deployment types in the rulebook (spearhead, pitched battle, dawn of war), it's going to take several turns just to get regular infantry into position to cover an entire table edge. That's several turns that those infantry units probably aren't really contributing to the battle.

Third (and finally) if someone actually did manage to block the table edges, scouts and infiltrators DON'T have to try and outflank. They could just enter the table edge like regular reserve forces do.

First, you don't need < 1" gaps; 2" coherency is more than adequate (as your enemy can't move a model w/in 1" of your models, and the 2" gap blocks that nicely).

Second, it's easier than you might think, particularly on spearhead deployments (or, as previously noted, with sufficient infiltrators/outflankers of your own). Deploy along the 24" side edge; turn 1, drive a transport forward 12" & unload a squad, while advancing some models up from the 24" line; turn 2, drive the transport further along, and spread the disembarked squad out. Pitched battle takes 1 turn longer, but that's still a blocked board edge on turn 3.

(Also as noted above, your third point is incorrect.)

Hmm. There is no rule on this in the book. You do however deploy from a board edge. It is not however like depolying from a vehicle. To deploy from a vehicle you exit the vehicle first and then move. It is also not deepstriking.

I think they best way to do this is to say the unit is not able to deploy and is held in reserve. If the unit never comes out then they are lost like a unit that was never able to deploy from a Monolith.

Destroyed. They must come on, and cannot do so. The rule on page 94 doesnt matter as it's not the Reserve unit's own rule that is stopping it (which is what pg 94 addresses).

These folks have got it, its the same idea if you're trying to deploy any unit and are unable to place the models (disembarking from a transport with exits blocked, etc.

1) They declared outflank, they must now outflank, this is their only deployment. You (outside of homebrewed rules) cannot just use the deepstrike mishap table, as they aren't deepstriking.

2) They have to come on but their deployment is blocked and impossible on the side.

3) The models are destroyed as they cannot be placed without coming into contact with enemy models or moving through enemy models..

Think of it as a group of models skulking into the side of the battlefield where several units are lined up and waiting for them.

After looking at the rules targetawg is 100% correct. The rules for Outflanking mean you have to come in on the table side you roll and if that means the side that is blocked then you are destroyed. Only a 1/3 chance of this though.

True, although in some cases (guard with infiltrators etc) you can easily block both sides.

My saim hann army has no problem blocking both sides on turn 1 in pitched battle or dawn of war, turn 2 in spearhead.

Bike squads are on flying bases (read, very large) and are 10 strong. Turboboost 24 inches plus deployments is pretty much the whole board edge. Just add in my transports having start engines (giving a 36 inch possible move) and I can block the whole darn thing.

I wouldn't do it of course, unless it was a tourney.

In that case, go scuttle yourselves to death genestealers/khan bike armies.

It is worth noting that tank shocks can still occur.

If the dedicated transport tanks roll in and push enough dudes out of the way, it's possible to get *some* units onto the field. Still not a great counter tactic.

I talked w/ the owner of a Local Gaming Store who was able to run his ork bikes, of which he had many, to the opponents deployment edge. Placing them sideways and under 1" apart he stopped the guys reserves and wiped him out shortly thereafter. That's from the horse's mouth, I didn't see it myself, so take it for what it's worth.

sourclams wrote:It is worth noting that tank shocks can still occur.

If the dedicated transport tanks roll in and push enough dudes out of the way, it's possible to get *some* units onto the field. Still not a great counter tactic.

Definitley noteworthy! I hadn't considered this possibility.

Although, not a lot of armies field outflanking vehicles, so as you said its quite limited. Still, not a bad idea.

targetawg wrote:

sourclams wrote:It is worth noting that tank shocks can still occur.

If the dedicated transport tanks roll in and push enough dudes out of the way, it's possible to get *some* units onto the field. Still not a great counter tactic.

Definitley noteworthy! I hadn't considered this possibility.

Although, not a lot of armies field outflanking vehicles, so as you said its quite limited. Still, not a bad idea.

Doesn't necessarily work. Opponent tried it on me a week or so back. He still lost his foot slogging squad and lost the vehicle the next turn to Death or GLory when it tried to tank shock away from the edge. Key is that you only have to move the unit being tankshocked the minimum necessary to get out of the way. And then only if the vehicle occupies the space that the unit was in, right? Soooooo if he tanks shocks through, I'm still lined up on the edge as I don't have to move. If he stays on the board edge, I've moved out of the way, but now he blocks the edge. And Reserves have to come on before regular moves, so he'll still be blocking the edge next turn when more outflankers try to come in.

don_mondo wrote:

targetawg wrote:

sourclams wrote:It is worth noting that tank shocks can still occur.

If the dedicated transport tanks roll in and push enough dudes out of the way, it's possible to get *some* units onto the field. Still not a great counter tactic.

Definitley noteworthy! I hadn't considered this possibility.

Although, not a lot of armies field outflanking vehicles, so as you said its quite limited. Still, not a bad idea.

Doesn't necessarily work. Opponent tried it on me a week or so back. He still lost his foot slogging squad and lost the vehicle the next turn to Death or GLory when it tried to tank shock away from the edge. Key is that you only have to move the unit being tankshocked the minimum necessary to get out of the way. And then only if the vehicle occupies the space that the unit was in, right? Soooooo if he tanks shocks through, I'm still lined up on the edge as I don't have to move. If he stays on the board edge, I've moved out of the way, but now he blocks the edge. And Reserves have to come on before regular moves, so he'll still be blocking the edge next turn when more outflankers try to come in.

A lot will depend on the size of the following foot-squad; the vehicle needs to stop 1.9" from the board edge (such that the blocking models cannot be moved between it & the board edge), which will give the foot squad room for 2 rows of 25mm bases, across the width of the vehicle. It's not great, but it's better than nothing.

according to the GW "ask your questions guy" they are held until they are able to enter play.

Good to know, you just have to make sure the rest of your models are not wiped out before you can remove enough of the enemy to allow your reserves to enter.

The issue simply isn't covered in the rules. There are many rules that might apply, but it is not clear which ones take precedence, or what happens when you can't follow all of them.

You must bring them on when they are available. No other option is allowed, there is no rule that says they get destroyed if they can't fit. So if they can't come on, are they destroyed? Or are the enemy models moved out of the way enough to get on the board? Or, since the rules clearly state you "must bring them on as soon as they are available", can you now use the long table edge instead.

There is a rule that states if a movement rule may disallow coming on the table (Rage, BA Engines, etc) you ignore that rule. So does that mean if one table edge is blocked, you ignore the Outlflank rule? Do you ignore it totally, or only if you roll the blocked side?

It makes just as much sense to say they can't be stopped, as to say they get destroyed.
I am looking forward to a FAQ/errata on the situation.

Until then, it seems the best/fairest option is for them to stay off the table until they can come on. It is still a disadvantage, without being a game-breaker.

Ssyrie wrote:While the outflanking units would be destroyed, I really doubt the situation would ever come up.

First, to cover 48" (4ft table edge) with less than 1" gap between each figure would require 25 models spaced just under 1" apart, and would be hard to maintain since any casualties would instantly open up holes.

Second, given the deployment types in the rulebook (spearhead, pitched battle, dawn of war), it's going to take several turns just to get regular infantry into position to cover an entire table edge. That's several turns that those infantry units probably aren't really contributing to the battle.

Third (and finally) if someone actually did manage to block the table edges, scouts and infiltrators DON'T have to try and outflank. They could just enter the table edge like regular reserve forces do.

Slightly off on point 1. The blocking models only need to be 2" apart, as trying to go between them would bring you within 1", thereby blocking you. You'd want to be 1.5" from each board edge, so your down to 45" that you have to cover, and each small base is just under an inch. Call it an inch for ease of math, 1 inch each side of each model, so 3 inches per model, 45 inches, 15 models, call it 16 to cover the ~16th of an inch the bases are smaller. In theory you could do that with one unit, provided it's one of the races that can have a model count in a unit of 15+. Practically speaking it's not going to happen, as it would take a couple of turns to spread out that far, and you really couldn't afford casualties during the process.

coredump wrote:

There is a rule that states if a movement rule may disallow coming on the table (Rage, BA Engines, etc) you ignore that rule. So does that mean if one table edge is blocked, you ignore the Outlflank rule? Do you ignore it totally, or only if you roll the blocked side?

It makes just as much sense to say they can't be stopped, as to say they get destroyed.
I am looking forward to a FAQ/errata on the situation.

Not quite correct, it actually says that if the unit in Reserve has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored. This is not a unit specific rule, this is a main rulebook rule (cannot move within 1", etc) that is preventing the unit from moving on. So the Arriving From Reserves on page 94 doesn't quite apply.

Ssyrie wrote:While the outflanking units would be destroyed, I really doubt the situation would ever come up.

First, to cover 48" (4ft table edge) with less than 1" gap between each figure would require 25 models spaced just under 1" apart, and would be hard to maintain since any casualties would instantly open up holes.

Second, given the deployment types in the rulebook (spearhead, pitched battle, dawn of war), it's going to take several turns just to get regular infantry into position to cover an entire table edge. That's several turns that those infantry units probably aren't really contributing to the battle.

Third (and finally) if someone actually did manage to block the table edges, scouts and infiltrators DON'T have to try and outflank. They could just enter the table edge like regular reserve forces do.

You're missing two key points.

Re your first, yep, takes a number of models and holes could potentially be blown in the line. So deploy them with some redundancy, double line, etc. Not hard to do.

Re your second, Infiltration! They start in position, blocking the table edge. Works best (the whole tactic pretty much only works) in Spearhead deployment. In addition, it provides nice clean lanes of fire for those units lined along the board edge from turn one, using their long ranged weaponry to contribute to the battle.

Re you third. Those Infiltrators mentioined above don't go out until after your opponent has declared Outflank, at which point they do indeed have to try and outflank. So no, they can't enter normally.

Don has it right there, the rules are for specific unit rules. Not these circumstances.

Of course any vehicle, skimmer, jetbike, or jump pack unit easily circumvents this tactic. As stated as well, any casualties to the line of guys opens up gaps.

What about the rule on page 92 that says you ignore other rules that keep units from entering the field of battle when held in reserve? An example is a BA rhino with OCE that rolls a 1 when coming in.

G