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Yep thats right farsight for ard boyz, O'shova and his lackeys with 14 shield drones each kitted slightly different to take advantage of wound allocation (23 wounds before you start losing firepower) ala nob bikers, pathfinder devilfish goes with the 3rd squad of fw's. other than that pretty self explanatory, what do you guys think?

Hq

Farsight, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Dawn Blade, HW Target Lock 170

Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW Target Lock [117]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW BSF[115]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, CIB, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [117]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, AFP, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [122]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW Target Lock, HW BSF[120]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW BSF[112]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [112]

Troops

12 x Fire Warriors, Shas'ui, Markerlight, HW Multitracker [145]
12 x Fire Warriors, Shas'ui, Markerlight, HW Multitracker [145]
12 x Fire Warriors, Shas'ui, Markerlight, HW Multitracker [145]
Devil Fish, SMS, MultiTracker, Targetting Array, Disruption Pod [120]
Devil Fish, SMS, MultiTracker, Targetting Array, Disruption Pod [120]

Heavy Support

2 x BroadSide, Drone Controller, 4x Shield Drone [200]
Hammerhead, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod, MultiTracker, Flechette Discharger [185]

Elites

3 x Crisis Team, Team Leader, Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone [221]
Fast Attack

8 x Pathfinders. Shas'ui [106]
Devil Fish, SMS, MultiTracker, Targetting Array, Disruption Pod [120]

Total
2492

I have never seen a tau list like this and hell, its awsome

how many wounds on the HQ squad?

Squig_herder wrote:I have never seen a tau list like this and hell, its awsome

how many wounds on the HQ squad?

well it has 14 shield drones at 1 wound each, the bodyguards have 2 wounds each, and Farsight has 4 meaning you could allocate 14 wounds to the drones (3+/4+ save) 1 wound to each of the 7 bodyguards (3+ save) then 2 to farsight (3+/4+ save) before you started losing models for a grand total of 23 before combat effectiveness is decreased

Thats out standing, i really like this list, well done, thought provoking

This list to me seems like a killing blow list and a nice one, with the body gurads using the JSJ rule then your up for a nice amount of ass wooping.

well i love your strategy but i still dont get how you get 5 bodyguards with farsight and then join up with the drones to amke a humounguos killing machine?

lolzman wrote:well i love your strategy but i still dont get how you get 5 bodyguards with farsight and then join up with the drones to amke a humounguos killing machine?

About bodyguards: Tau Empire codex page 45 Bodyguard section

About bodyguard options: page 32 Bodyguard section

Definitley interesting, and I'd love to see the madness you did with your hq down at a more normal points level (1750 or so) but at ard boyz, I'm not sure this list is going to be what you want it to.

Keep in mind...

Some of the reason nob biker is so effective is that it has several distinct advantages your unit lacks:

1) it scores, which your unit does not
2)its tough as nails (4+ cover save or armor save, then a 4+ FNP save) while your unit has 1 save instead of 2
3) Its T5 (I think yours are t4, although I could be wrong)
4) at 1750, not many armies can handle it without tooling entirely for it.
5) It only has to survive one turn of shooting before it locks in combat for half of the rest of the game
6) Its basically immune to morale (not sure if yours is fearless)


However...
At 2500, you're going to see a lot more heavy weapon, instant death, big template o doom hitting that unit, where multi-wound won't matter, it'll just be instakills.

Its definitley a fun looking/crazy idea, I'd just wonder how it fairs in the scaled up environment of 2500. The added invulnerable saves do make the unit quite nice, and as such it'll save the first few big instant death blast markers, but once they go, it could be quite a bad day for you..

targetawg wrote:
Some of the reason nob biker is so effective is that it has several distinct advantages your unit lacks:

1) it scores, which your unit does not

at ard boyz it does score, Farsight is hq and if you read ard boyz rules hq can score in 1 scenario, the second scenario is KP where your hq is worth 3 kp effectivley denying my opponent 3 kp (good luck killing farsight and company)

targetawg wrote:
2)its tough as nails (4+ cover save or armor save, then a 4+ FNP save) while your unit has 1 save instead of 2

it's true i don't have fnp or a perma coversave but I think that is mitigated to a degree by 14 ablative wounds with an invulnerable save, yes a big str 8 ap 3 blast template can ruin my day quickly but how many shots do you think it's going to get with broadsides and a HH on the table?

targetawg wrote:
3) Its T5 (I think yours are t4, although I could be wrong)

can't argue there but have you considered the advantages that the crisis have over nobs?

targetawg wrote:
4) at 1750, not many armies can handle it without tooling entirely for it.

this can go into 1750 with ease

targetawg wrote:5) It only has to survive one turn of shooting before it locks in combat for half of the rest of the game

you do realize this unit can assault as well right? with farsight at ws5 with 4 attacks at I5 and his dawnblade denying armor saves of ANY kind meaning not even invulnerable, with 7 suits that aren't to shabby in cc str 5 2 attacks they can pummel something with plasma fire to soften it up then hop in to carve it up, thats right an assault capable tau unit.

targetawg wrote:6) Its basically immune to morale (not sure if yours is fearless)

first of all nobs are not fearless, kill 1 of them and they are ld 10 and falling, second of all while farsight is not fearless he is ld 10 and with the free bonding knives he confers they can regroup even below 50% and get back to the fight.

lolzman wrote:well i love your strategy but i still dont get how you get 5 bodyguards with farsight and then join up with the drones to amke a humounguos killing machine?

it's actually 7 bodyguards and that is possible because in the farsight entry he has a special rule allowing him 7 bodyguards and they have the huge unit of drones because body guards have full access to tau wargear which means they can each take hardwired drone controllers and 2 drones of their choice, in this case shield drones.

Let's see it in 1750 then! (I mean this in a happy, excited way, not sarcastic )

Not as a challenge or a knock on this, but I think armies revolving around an uber unit of unkillable face beating are much more triumphant at lower point levels.

At ard boyz, most people can deal with it.

As to the combat effectiveness...

I know you CAN assault as well, however any decent dedicated CC unit will rip this one a new one with a powerfist or two. Farsight will hit twice, wound once, and kill a model. Two if you're lucky. The rest of them contribute 14 attacks, 7 hit, 5 wound, and your opponent gets saves.

I can think of plenty that would survive this with a good deal of ease, and remember JSJ is what, a 6 inch retreat? A fast CC unit will in all likelihood catch them eventually.

Nob biker squads through out about 10 str 8 power weapon attacks, 4 str 10 power weapon attacks, and 30 ish str str 7 normal attacks on the charge.


Not trying to be down on the list or knock it, just trying to provide some counter points so you consider what possible weaknesses of the list are, as it stands I'm impressed with the ingenuity, i'm just not sure how it works out actually on the table, which is something you'd have to test out.

Well my thoughts on this being a good ard boy army was having a very tough hq unit to try to deny the 3 kp's hq gives up in ard boyz as well as a mobile one for getting to objectives to score the bonus points in the get'em boss scenario. It would go into 1750 as follows

Hq

Farsight, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Dawn Blade, HW Target Lock 170

Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 1 x Shield Drone, [97]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [112]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, CIB, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [115]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, AFP, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [122]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW BSF[115]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [112]

6 x Fire Warriors [60]
6 x Fire Warriors [60]
Devil Fish, Disruption Pod, SMS, Targetting Array, MultiTracker [120]
Devil Fish, Disruption Pod, SMS, Targetting Array, MultiTracker [120]

Hammerhead, Burst Cannon, Disruption Pod, MultiTracker, [175]
2 x BroadSide, Drone Controller, 3x Shield Drone [185]

3 x Crisis suit, Plasma Rifle, 2 x Missile Pod, 1 x Fusion Blaster, MultiTracker [186]

1749

Aftersong wrote:you do realize this unit can assault as well right? with farsight at ws5 with 4 attacks at I5 and his dawnblade denying armor saves of ANY kind meaning not even invulnerable, with 7 suits that aren't to shabby in cc str 5 2 attacks they can pummel something with plasma fire to soften it up then hop in to carve it up, thats right an assault capable tau unit.

Ehh there are only one kind of armour saves. My codex states that the weapon practically works as a power weapon. Invulnerable saves are a different thing...

Zaephyr wrote:

Aftersong wrote:you do realize this unit can assault as well right? with farsight at ws5 with 4 attacks at I5 and his dawnblade denying armor saves of ANY kind meaning not even invulnerable, with 7 suits that aren't to shabby in cc str 5 2 attacks they can pummel something with plasma fire to soften it up then hop in to carve it up, thats right an assault capable tau unit.

Ehh there are only one kind of armour saves. My codex states that the weapon practically works as a power weapon. Invulnerable saves are a different thing...

blargh I mis-read, could have sworn it specifically stated no saves of any kind may be taken, my bad zaephyr is correct

Where are you getting this ard boyz information? They change the scenarios every year, and the only info I see on GW is from the 2008 season, the 2009 hasn't been announced yet, or whether it'll be Fantasy, 40k, or both.

And btw, your 1750 list is quite nice. Big unit of doom. Mobile objective grabbers. Nice anti tank.

I like.

Might struggle versus a true horde (100-200 models), but still, quite cool, and its not an army I'd hope to see on the other side of the table.

A very thought provoking list.

However I agree, a dedicated CC unit will still whip suits (ive lost a full squad of suits to a single assult mariene).

However - due to the other priorities *broadside and hamerhead* your suits should be able to last for the majority of the game - not to mention your wound alocation.

Also seeing that many suits on the board is sure to make your opponent very nervous.

I would like to raise the point that, a CC unit, isnt all that good at whethering a load of shots or getting close enough without being noticed.

Has anyone among you counted the sheer amout of high strength shots and the range at which they can be delivered?

Well im telling you, no much could whether 1 round of shooting from this unit

Squig_herder wrote:I would like to raise the point that, a CC unit, isnt all that good at whethering a load of shots or getting close enough without being noticed.

Has anyone among you counted the sheer amout of high strength shots and the range at which they can be delivered?

Well im telling you, no much could whether 1 round of shooting from this unit

Yeah this was my thought exactly, the farsight unit has the option to stick by the cardinal rule of 40k; shoot the assaulty stuff and assault the shooty stuff.

at 24' away in one round of shooting (bs4) it will kick out

8 str 6 ap2
6 str 7 ap4

meaning about 5.5 wounds to meq

however at 12" you get

16 str 6 ap2
6 str 7 ap4
2 str 8 ap1
5 str 3 ap5
and 1 large blast at str 4 ap5

meaning about 11.4 wounds to meq not including the large blast or the potential rending from the CIB.

Another thing to keep in mind is, how does this do versus the other top 2 lists, lash spam and nob biker.

Lash spam is going to slap you in and out of terrain, forcing terrain checks, or bunch you up for templates/move you in for assaults.

Nob biker will simply turboboost up, weather your firepower, and then assault you.

Lash spam i can see you doing better against, you'll focus on the lashes, down them early, and function well, id think.

Nob biker im not so sure..Snikrot comes on behind and rips up your broadsides in all likelihood, and the biker squads hack away.

How do you think a match up versus these armies would go for you?

Nob bikers are going to be problematic regardless, tau just don't have a reliable way to deal with them other than to just unload all the firepower you have and hope which is what i would be doing, as a side note though farsight does convey the preferred enemy special rule to his whole army when fighting orks. Now I have spent my whole warhammer career avoiding assaults at all costs so i am not a great judge at who wins in assaults, however do you think farsight and company could handle a slightly depleted nob biker squad (say 7 nobs and warboss) if they got the charge and had all their drones intact?

As for dual lash I think it could handle it well enough, depending mostly on deployment and the scenario at hand, but the 8 samurai could gib a Demon prince in 1 round of shooting and the same goes for any pesky sorcerers attached to tac squads.

I think the big problem would be drop pod armies who choose to ignore the 8 man crisis team and just work on gutting the rest of the army

I very much enjoy your 8 Samurai/7 Samurai lists (reminds me of a movie...). My thoughts include being nervous about Warfish. They are expensive and only dish out 4 st5/ap5 attacks per turn. If it were me I would strip the 'Fish down to DP's and use the points towards another HH or Crisis team. Now, I am unclear on how Devilfish give up killpoints in Ard Boyz, so that may be an extra kill point (for the drones) you don't want to give up per 'Fish, plus the extra unit bought with the points. But if I remember correctly, transports don't give up KP's in Ard Boyz...

Also, for sure make one Broadside a Team Leader and giving him a HWTL so you can possibly have three targets of railguns instead of two.

Great list, got the cogs in my mind turning. Thanks for that!

Aftersong wrote:Nob bikers are going to be problematic regardless, tau just don't have a reliable way to deal with them other than to just unload all the firepower you have and hope which is what i would be doing, as a side note though farsight does convey the preferred enemy special rule to his whole army when fighting orks. Now I have spent my whole warhammer career avoiding assaults at all costs so i am not a great judge at who wins in assaults, however do you think farsight and company could handle a slightly depleted nob biker squad (say 7 nobs and warboss) if they got the charge and had all their drones intact?

As for dual lash I think it could handle it well enough, depending mostly on deployment and the scenario at hand, but the 8 samurai could gib a Demon prince in 1 round of shooting and the same goes for any pesky sorcerers attached to tac squads.

I think the big problem would be drop pod armies who choose to ignore the 8 man crisis team and just work on gutting the rest of the army

Although i wish they could, unfortunately I'd say no, here's the rough math hammer...

This is assuming you get the charge, which will be difficult considering you're both the same speed, except he has the turboboost option available. But lets say he came in, charged a unit of your, wiped it, and this is the ensuing phase. Also assuming they don't take cyberork armor for a 5+ invulnerable

You hit on 3's due to preferred enemy: orks (nice, i didn't notice that earlier) and wound on 4's as they're T5. The warboss is T6, but you wouldnt be attacking him, you'd be trying to rack up wounds for combat res..

Farsight: 5 attacks, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds (no saves)
7 Suits: 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 3.5 save their 4+ armor, 1.75 save their 4+ FNP

You've done 3.5 unsaved wounds, which unfortunately is 0 nobs, due to the same wound allocation magic you utilize

Orks coming back atcha...assuming the typical warboss with PK and 3 PK nobs setup. Hitting on 3's as their WS 4/5 (Nob/Boss)

Warboss: 4 attacks base = 3 hits = 2.5 wounds
Powerklaw Nob (3) : 9 attacks = 6 hits = 5 wounds
Non PK Nob using big choppas (str 6) (4): 16 attacks = 11 hits = 9 wounds

You'll of course be putting these on drones, so 16.5 wounds on 14 drones, 2.5 will have to go on your suits due to wound allocation, 1 suit takes a wound, and 5 drones die

Thats 6 wounds to your side

Combat res is 3.5 - 6, you lose combat by 2.5 and break check. Next round is more of the same since you can't hit and run, except keep in mind in 2 more rounds the drones are gone and the squad folds, and this is if you don't break before then testing on Ld7 the first round and LD 5 ish in following rounds.


Keep in mind their shooting isn't horrid either with dakkaguns, the squad pumps out (even in its weakened state) 24 shots, which will yield 13 hits, and about 10 wounds after its all said and done. (Str 5, Ap 5, Assault 3, Twin linked)

Nob biker is a rough unit, and their isn't much of a way around it minus just spamming str 8 + weapons, even then they get a 4+ cover save, meaning it'll take quite a few to down the unit.

Thinking on it more, what about this strategy to deal with them

Score 4 Markerlight hits (somehow) on the nob unit... 3 to remove their cover, 1 to boost your unit to bs 5 in the ensuing phase.

16 str 6 ap2
6 str 7 ap4
2 str 8 ap1
5 str 3 ap5
and 1 large blast at str 4 ap5

The blast: will probably hit ~4 bikers with the spacing, wound 1.5 - 4+ armor, 4+ FNP, .5 wound
5 str 3 ap 5: 4 hit, 1 wound - 4+ armor, 4+ FNP, .25 wound
2 str 8 ap 1: ~2 hit, ~1.5 wound - he gets a 5+ invulnerable, 1 wound
6 str 7 ap 4: 5 hit, 3.5 wound - he gets a 5+ invulnerable (2.5 wounds) then a 4+ FNP, 1.25 wounds
16 str 6 ap 2: 13 hit, 10 wound - he gets a 5+ invulnerable, so he takes ~ 7 wounds

With wound allocation both of the melta will go on his warboss (as he's base t5 and wont get IK'd), the nobs will suffer the other 9 wounds, so 10 wounds done total.

Now it won't kill a nob, but it sure has gotten close. Now if you were to throw the phonebook at it (ie, the entire rest of your army) you might start popping quite a few nobs. This also leaves you in a better situation in the "if farsight and bodyguard charge" situation. Personally I'd run away quickly after this with farsight, because even if you win the combat, squad 2 of nob bikers will smash into the stranded farsight unit and mop up.

The only flaw I still can see is that your big unit of suits cant split up its shots - yes it should kill anything withing 24 inches. You only have 2 target locks in your first post and in another you have 0 so im not sure.

However hopefully the rest of your army should be able to help as well. I see bikes being your only real issue.

Best of luck.

targetawg wrote:You hit on 3's due to preferred enemy: orks (nice, i didn't notice that earlier) and wound on 4's as they're T5. The warboss is T6, but you wouldnt be attacking him, you'd be trying to rack up wounds for combat res..

Actually, in 5th, preferred enemy means you re-roll your misses when rolling to hit, effectively making Farsight's army Twin Linked in close combat. Try converting that!

Hrm, I forgot about that change, even though i often play a Black templar friend.

It probably helps out a bit with the combat if they charge, but its still heavily skewed towards the nob biker.

I'd say, as others did, your major challenge will be versus nob biker. Any other list should present a tactical game you're fully capable of winning, and against lash spam i'd actually say you have a distinct advantage.

thats a lovely force and all the crisis suits will make a huge mese of his force

You know, you've done okay with making this force but as a 'ard Boyz army you're not abusing the list as you need to be.

Have a look at the thread below, my take on an all Battlesuit army at 1500pts, yes, it's my Chaos Tau Army the force is designed to get into combat and it does quite well once you kill off the Space Pope!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218606.page

Have a look, you might actually be able to take some ideas from there and put it into your army. The one thing I note in your list is you ahve a great HQ unit but haven't maxed the Battlesuits in the Elites choices. The army has a kick ass HQ unit but against hoard armies you're gonna suffer from not being able to kill enough of them. A couple of twinlinked flamer toting jump packs should have you flying through the air and toasting whole chunks of the enemy before engaging in combat with beefed up strength thanks to space pope dying for you (best part is whose gonna think you actively want him to die?).

Cheers, please leave commenst in my thread no one actually did much at the time I posted and it was disappointing as I was looking for feedback.

Auretious Taak.

P.S.

Hq

Farsight, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Dawn Blade, HW Target Lock 170

Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW Target Lock [117]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW BSF[115]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, CIB, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [117]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, AFP, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [122]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Missile Pod, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW Target Lock, HW BSF[120]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, HW BSF[112]
Body Guard, Plasma rifle, Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array, HW MultiTracker, HW Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drone, [112]

The rule pertaining to losing full models wherever possible means once those drones are down you're in all sorts of trouble as they are all virtually armed the same. Mix up some of the options in there, you don't need a multitracker if you twin link a weapon instead, or you switch a few things around so a core of the bodyguard shoots the same unit et al. Basically, you adopt the Ork Nob Biker ideal where you have each model armed differently and once the fodder drones are gone EVERYTHING has to be wounded once before whole models start to be removed. Some people frown on it, however, you are gunning for 'ard Boyz so play to the level.

@targettawg

like I said i am no whiz when it comes to assault math but when you were factoring in total wounds did you take into account that wounds allocated to shield drones can use their 4+ invul save and thus potentially ignore some powerklaw attacks? So from the way it looks to me it would be 16.5 wounds 14 of which go to drones half of which make their armor saves meaning 7 dead drones then 2.5 big choppa attacks goes to suits 2.5 on a 3+ save means .825 wounds. so while i still lose the combat as dead drones count towards combat resolution. However taking into account the preferred enemy rule the charge should look like this.

on charge
farsight 5 attacks, 4.4 hits. 2.2 wounds
7 suits 21 attacks, 15.5 hits, 1.9 wounds after 4+ save and FNP
subsequent rounds
farsight 4 attacks, 3.5 hits 1.75 wounds
7 suits 14 attacks, 10.5 hits, 1.3 qounds after 4+ save and FNP

so the way i see it, if i assault then i have about 2 rounds of fighting before I start really putting wounds on suits meaning 7 wounds in cc before things get bad for me, if you count 1 round of shooting before the assault that is 17 wounds total meaning 8.5 dead bikers does this mean I could win?

Also been toying with the idea of giving one of them a Failsafe detonator just in case they should fail a moral check in an assault

@auretious taak

if you look every suit is slightly different weather it be a hard wired blacksun filter, a target lock, or a different weapon no 2 suits have the same kit allowing me to use wound allocation magic to not remove a model until all the shield drones are dead all the bodyguards have 1 wound and farsight has 2

Seems about right to me, I had the PK's hitting shield drones yes.

Just keep in mine in the first round you lose 8 - 4.

You're testing on Ld 6, lose, and you risk getting run down.

You could win a drawn out combat, but its based on:

1) You can't duff your rolls
2) You pass ld every turn, testing on ~6
3) You get to weaken them with that opening volley before charging
4) You get the charge
5) You don't get charged by one of his other units while all of this is happening.

Also, 17 wounds is 2 on the boss, then 7 dead bikers. Also keep in mind, this is a battle of attrition, even if you win this combat, you then have a unit without drones, and a second same sized nob biker unit ready to charge on in while you're stuck in against the first nob squad.

Its a rough battle for sure..

hmm what am i missing? why would I only be using ld6 rather than farsights ld10?