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Hello,

First time posting. Getting back into warhammer after a 6+ year break. I play Vampire Counts and other various RPG's and MMO's. I seem to run into some rules questions from time to time and was hoping you folks might be kind enough to help a guy out. Normally during a game if an argument arises and we cant come to a peaceful solution we just roll a die and highest one wins there interpretation. I have a hard time letting issues go that i feel strongly about so i tend to look for clarifications by looking at the erratas from time to time. However this and several other questions could not be answered by searching for them, so i ask. Ill make a separate post regarding my Vampire counts questions so i can keep them somewhat organized.

I Played my friend a couple nites back who plays lizardmen with the new army book. He was using a character riding a carnosaur. An issue came up when we started Close combat. The have the rule Ultimate Predator: The carnosaur's bite is sufficient to dismember any prey in the jungle. Each unsaved wound that the carnosaur inflicts is multiplied into D3 wounds. (page 59 new lizardmen army book).

The previous LM AB stats this on page 32. Ultimate Predator: The main food source for the carnosaurs are giant reptilian creatures that dwell in the deepest jungles and so carnosaurs are perfectly adept at killing large prey. Against large targets, each wound that the carnosaur inflicts does D3 wounds rather then 1.

(example situation) his carnasour hits 3 times and follows up with 3 possible wounds on a unit of ghouls. seeing as it says each wound is multiplied by D3, he rolled a D3 per die and came back with a 1 3 and 5 on those dice (meaning 6 wounds total) and said i take 6 wounds. I read that as saying he did only 3 wounds because my guys only have 1 wound each.

So the question is simple. Do carnosaurs (according to new LM AB) cause D3 wounds per wound against units or only against models with multiple wounds? I know the book is new so in our game i chose to just go with his interpretation so we could get on with the game but i said i would post this for clarification in the future.

I personally think its just not worded correctly and will be errated and reworded to something like. Ultimate Predator: Against models with multiple wounds, a carnosaurs bite is so powerfull that each wound inflicted is multiplied by D3.


But then that would make me think of another question. For each wound multipled by D3. Does that mean that each UNSAVED wound is D3 wounds or each wound done (befor saves) is actually D3 wounds. Example: Carnasaur hits a "hero" (who has 3 wounds) lets say 2 times and causes 2 wounds. Will said "hero" be making 2 saves right then and there (and each unsaved wound is actually D3 wounds which could kill him outright on a 5 or 6 roll) or will the carnasaur first roll a D3 per wound, coming up with say a 3 and 5 (effectivly 5 wounds now) and the said "hero" is making 5 saves.

Sorry if this is confusing but im just trying to get some help here.

Thanks in advance!
-Gutbusterr

Im not quite sure what you're even asking, it seems like you think the rule was worded incorrectly just because you don't like how it works.

Its a totally clear rule though:

Each unsaved wound inflicted by the carnosaur is multiplied by d3.

Whats confusing about that?

Roll to hit.
Roll to wound.
Opponent makes saves.
You multiply by d3.

He thinks its D3 wounds per wound. So he believes if he does 3 wounds he immediatly rolls 3 die (1 per wound) gets a 1,3 and 5 (meaning 6 wounds total). Hes saying that a UNIT is then taking 6 wounds. Im saying that you roll the D3 per UNSAVED wounds.

Again, Example = Carnasaur is in combat with a unit of ghouls. Carn hits 3 times and does 3 wounds. Does the D3 part come in effect befor or after the armor saves. He thinks its befor armor saves so the ghouls would take 6 wounds (removing 6 models) and im saying its after. So no matter the D3 part i only remove 3.

Your saying

Roll to hit
roll to wound
opponent makes saves
multiply by D3

Im saying

roll to hit
roll to wound
opponent makes saves.
each UNSAVED wound turns into D3 (on that 1 model)

Maybe im not explainingg this well but to me its a difference of a unit of 1wound models taking either 5 deaths (because they only have 1 wound) or 5 x D3 deaths (which could mean 15 deaths from only 5 swings? Im not seeing how its possible to hit 15 models while only ever swinging 5 times period. I belive its worded as each individual model that takes A WOUND is potentially taking up to 3 WOUNDS if said model doesnt pass his armor/ward/regen save.

I hope thats more clear.

-Gutbusterr

This works out exactly like a stone thrower. The model is destroyed but he does not get overkill. I will have to check the LM rule book and I suggest you look at it also.

Against a unit you don't attack individual models, in a challenge yes, you'll max out at 5 easily and it only hits that one model.

But against a unit you're hitting all of them, its the same reasoning as when you kill more models than are in BTB with you, its just assumed that the men were pressed forward into combat (the reason you can kill more than the first rank).

Just play it as its written:

Each unsaved wound is multiplied into d3 wounds.

Carnosaur charges your bowmen for instance, he hits 3 times, wounds twice, and then you make saves (which due to his strength you wouldn't get)

Then you multiply by d3.

Those 2 wounds may turn into 5, yes, but thats the rule.

And saying you would get 15 kills is a pretty big reach, while its possible, it requires unbelievable rolling

You have to hit 5/5 times on a 4+

You have to wound 5/5 times (probably a 2+, but still)

Your opponent has to fail all saves

You have to roll 5/5 5+'s.

And I fail to see how this works like a stone thrower, it doesn't say that anywhere.

Gutbusterr, you're largely correct. I'm going to set this thread straight.

Yes, all UNSAVED wounds from a Carnosaur are multiplied into d3 wounds. However, you cannot inflict more wounds than a model has (EXCEPTION: Challenges; more later), and excess wounds do not carry over in units of 1-wound models. Your friend was incorrect; 3 wounds was the max.

1) Roll to hit
2) Roll to wound
3) Roll saves
4) Mulitply wounds (ignored against 1-wound models)

Therefore, a Carnosaur with (I'm assuming) 5 attacks would only be able to kill, AT BEST, 5 models.

CHALLENEGES

When fighting in a challenge, it is possible to score more wounds than the target model has. Follow steps 1-4, above.

If, after multiplying wounds, the target is dead, then all wounds scored count towards combat resolution, up to A MAXIMUM 5 points above what the character started with.

Hence, against most unit champions, you could score 6 points of combat resolution from eating them (heroes would be 7, lords would be 8; some characters, like OK, may be more).

...

If it makes him feel nice knowing that he did 3 wounds to a 1-wound Ghoul, so be it. But the bite isn't so vicious that 1 attack can take down 3 Ghouls.

Yes. The sight of the Commander flying twelve different ways tends to be rather scary.

Garythewargamer,
I have both lizardmen armybooks in front of me and quoted the exact phrases of each for Ultimate Predator. I'm sorry that i dont know what a stone thrower is or does, never seen one in action.



Targetawg,

If i understand correctly, your saying that even though you only swing 5 times you "CAN" kill up to 15 models that only had 1 wound a piece. This is the part that is confusing me. I say that because as i stated first, the Lizardmen army book prior to there new one clearly states that Large Targets suffer D3 wounds rather then 1. (This represents the carnasours bite being really powerfull!) New book doesnt say anything about targets having to be large or what not for this to take effect. I believe this is a mistake in wording only because i cant see 1 bite killing 3 models (potentially) but i can defiantly see 1 bite snapping a guy in half.

I understand being pushed into combat and moving up after a guy dies. I dont see how 1 single bite kills 3 guys w/o even having to swing for those extra wounds. For instance, with Red fury. Each unsaved wound = i get another attack that could lead to me doing more wounds but atleast i have to swing again.

I know i was stretching with saying 5 carn attacks could lead to 15 wounds, but it could. Especially seeing as if you kill Kroq-Gar(hero) then Grymloq (carnasour w/ 5 attacks) becomes frenzied and remains frenzied. combine that with a 7 str and there pretty much guaranteed deaths.

The game i played vs my friend that put me in this situation. He hit me 3 times with the carnasaur and did 7 wounds (7 dead) which woulda made me lose combat as apposed to only killing 3 then i would have won.


-Gutbusterr

Manfred von Drakken,

Thank you very much, you said that so much more clearer then i ever could. Sorry for my confusing posts. I'm glad you understood exactly what i was asking though!


Thanks again,
Gutbusterr

Page 31 of the main Warhammer book clear states, well pretty clear states. "Some war machines, spells or magic weapons are so destructive that if a model is hit and wounded by them, the victum does not lose only one wound, but a number of wounds eaual to the roll of a D3, D6, etc. In such cases, roll to hit and to wound as normal and then take any armour saves and ward saves that apply....If the model has only 1 wound on its profile, there is no need to do this, as models cannot suffer more wounds than they have on their profile. The victim dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted."

Obviously if this was a group of Orges, the die roll of 3 would be important.
MvD was absolutely correct. The monster can only kill five mansize models.

Manfred is 100% correct here. The rules for wound multiplication can be found in the main rulebook and clearly state how you are to handle situations like that.

As sad as us Lizardmen players may be about it, a carnosaur cannot bite a man in half so hard that the guys on either side explode from the sheer awesomeness.

The wounds aren't multiplied into D3 wounds until after saves are taken, and the wound is inflicted on a particular model. So a carnosaur can only kill 4 guys, but it can potentially inflict 12 wounds on some poor unsuspecting hero or monster though!


EDIT: make that 15 wounds, with the +1 attack from frenzy.... though to be fair, for 450 points, the carnosaur/reality blade oldblood better kick some serious arse!

Yes that is correct my poor dragon was on the biting end of the carnasaur and suffered five wounds from only two hits cause it and its rider to run and in turn get run down by the nasty critter. Then the treekin were next. I feel sorry for ogre players against LM as i see those fights being one sided.