Deff rolla vs. Vehicles?

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**Carnuss**

I saw this comment in the Tactics section of the articles on Dakka. I was curious whether this item ever turned from "hotly debated" to "conclusively clarified".

Deff Rolla - Assuming that the Deff Rolla can be used when Ramming enemy vehicles (an idea that is often debated), the Deff Rolla is actually one of the best ways for Orks to handle AV14 enemy vehicles. Beyond that it allows you to re-roll dangerous terrain tests, and inflicts the D6 S10 wounds against tank shocked units even if they manage to stop the Battlewagon with a Death or Glory attack. If you're taking a Battlewagon and using it to move towards the enemy (as opposed to a gun-platform vehicle) then you really should be including a Deff Rolla on it.

Can you ram vehicles with a deff rolla? Or rather, I am certain you can ram them, but do you get the bonus S10 hits? If so, great! If not, what uses (if any) have you found the deff rolla to be worth the points for as well as the risk of putting your rear AV 10 into assault range? With no armor penetration, I haven't been impressed with what the S10 hits do. They are woefully inadequate for running over a monstrous creature, for instance. Plenty of wounds followed by plenty of saves from my experience.

**Gwar!**

Nope.

You don't ever "tank shock" a vehicle. You "Ram" them.

While a Ram may be a Special Kind of Tank Shock (in that only tanks can do it) its not a Tank Shock action, its a Ram.

By strict RaW (as one should default to at all times) Deffrollas do not affect vehicles. This is mainly because Orks are a 4th ed codex before Ramming existed, and as such does not support it.

If you wanna discuss with your opponent beforehand and work out a compromise (or even just let them affect vehicles as written) then by all means do so. Just bear in mind that by the Letter of the law it doesn't work that way.

tl;dr You get your one Ramming hit but not the Bonus D6 S10 hits.

**DebonaireToast**

Ah! Not again!!

This is addressed in the INAT FAQ, but remains a hotly contested issue which there is no real way to resolve.

There have been many, many threads on this topic already if your interested in hearing both sides of the argument.

Here are a couple for reference:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227443.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216779.page

EDIT: Added links. Now let us never speak of this again.

**Gwar!**

Don't worry Toast I am not planning on dragging this into another argument. I just wanted to answer the question (RaW its no but hey go nuts if you feel like it) to the best of my ability

**sourclams**

Gwar! wrote:Nope.

You don't ever "tank shock" a vehicle. You "Ram" them.

While a Ram may be a Special Kind of Tank Shock (in that only tanks can do it) its not a Tank Shock action, its a Ram.

WARNING: "FACT" ALERT!!! By strict RaW (as one should default to at all times) Deffrollas do not affect vehicles. This is mainly because Orks are a 4th ed codex before Ramming existed, and as such does not support it.

If you wanna discuss with your opponent beforehand and work out a compromise (or even just let them affect vehicles as written) then by all means do so. Just bear in mind that by the Letter of the law it doesn't work that way.

tl;dr You get your one Ramming hit but not the Bonus D6 S10 hits.

Please don't post "facts" unless they are indeed. The wording in the Ork codex is very open-ended and a 'Ram' is not an independent, stand-alone maneuver. RAW lends quite a bit of support to the Rolla being usable versus vehicles, which is why the debate often rages hotly. I'm not attempting to resurrect the argument, but the referrals posted by Debonair Toast are a much better way of guiding the curious reader than your blanket statement.

@Carnuss: John Spencer (the official rules guy of GW customer service) has said it does not function against vehicles and many posters on this forum don't believe it was intended to work as such. Follow the links to the previous threads and they will cover all of the arguments pro and con.

**Gwar!**

Well considering it is RaW (I don't see anything about Ramming in the Deffrolla entry) I don't know why you feel the need to get so snarky.

**DebonaireToast**

This is all I will add to the discussion, and I'm quoting Yakface as he covered just about all the bases before he locked the last thread on this topic:

Yakface wrote:The fact is, GW needs to answer this question in an official FAQ for everyone to agree on how it should be played no matter how you look at it.

As for the INAT FAQ (for those who care), in the 2.1 version that will be coming out tomorrow we have reversed our previous ruling and gone with the stance that Deff Rollas cannot be used with Rams (and also therefore that Reinforced Rams do not allow Trukks to Ram either).

I personally believe that the rules support the position Sourclams has been arguing:

Ramming is a type of Tank Shocking, similar to how a Morale Check is a type of Leadership Test. The Deff Rolla says it works with any Tank Shock and therefore it should function with a Ram. This would be the same concept as if there was a special rule that did D6 S10 hits to a unit when it took a Ld test. If a unit then had to take a Morale check would this not still be a Ld test? Of course it would and as such the rule would apply.

However, having said that, there are other factors to consider some of which being the fact that both the UKGT house rules this year (which I've gotten the chance to read a preview version of) and John Spencer are both ruling that Deff Rollas do not work with Ramming. With an issue that so divided and one that can have a pretty big impact on games we felt it behooved us to have our FAQ ruling the same way as these other two sources, especially since the argument either way really comes down to semantics.

So for those of you looking to play strictly by the RAW you just have to know that this is an issue you'll have to discuss with your opponent before the game, and for those playing in the UKGT or a tournament using the INAT FAQ this year, you will not be able to use Deff Rollas when ramming.

Beyond that, we'll all just have to wait until GW decides this issue worthy enough to include in their official FAQs.

**fatal_GRACE**

However, you can always ram with a vehicle that has a Deff Rolla, whether the rolla actually affects the outcome or not.

**Carnuss**

Indeed, though I don't think a single S7 or S8 hit is going to cause quite the same sinking feeling on the other side of the table as a die full of S10s does when a landraider gets sideswiped. Oh well, good to know.

**Steelmage99**

Gwar! wrote:Well considering it is RaW (I don't see anything about Ramming in the Deffrolla entry) I don't know why you feel the need to get so snarky.

I guess all us people participating in several 5+ pages long threads on the subject (on this board alone), have all gotten it wrong.
Thank God, you are now here to tell us all how it works.

In case you missed it, that was sarcasm. If it was as clearcut as you'd like it to be, we wouldn't have had those long discussions, now would we?

**Lordhat**

PLEASE MOD, LOCK THIS THREAD!

**mikhaila**

By strict RaW (as one should default to at all times)

Ah, a cultist of the new religion. Always good for a giggle.

I've yet to drink the kool-aid and worship at the alter of RAW.

**AffliKtion**

Does a Deffrolla cause instant death? also, does it have an AP value?

**yakface**

AffliKtion wrote:Does a Deffrolla cause instant death? also, does it have an AP value?

It is listed as causing S10 hits, so yes it can cause instant death. And it is not a shooting attack so it does not have an AP value.

To the OP: please try searching the forum before posting a new thread, especially considering you found a reference that said the topic is often debated, that should be a tip-off that there are already several existing threads on the matter.

Locking now. . .