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I have three questions:

1) How do kill points work with a hive tyrant with tyrant guard? The FAQ says:

"This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the hive tyrant counts as an upgrade character for this unit) until the guards are all destroyed, at which point the hive tyrant reverts to normal rules for monstrous creatures."

So, if a hive tyrant just counts as an upgrade character for the unit (like a sergeant, I'm assuming) then the whole squad, tyrant included, is only one kill point. At least, that's the way I'm reading it. But I have heard the arguments that since they are two different entries they are two kill points and even that since the tyrant reverts to its previous rules when his guard is killed, if you kill the guard first, he becomes another kill point. I'm pretty sure I know the answer, I just want to put this one to rest.

2) How do cover saves work with this unit?

The rules for monstrous creatures state fairly clearly that 50% of the model must be covered to get a cover save. But the rules for regular infantry (which is what the tyrant guard are) state that if at least half the models are obscured, in area terrain, etc. then the whole unit gets a cover save.

So, say for example I have my three tyrant guard and single hive tyrant in area terrain. According to the rules for infantry, the tyrant guard get a save from the area terrain, but the tyrant does not. But since they're a single unit and the guard comprise at least 50% of it, they should get a save, right?

3) Do tyrant guard have to be equipped uniformly?

Their entry says, "tyrant guard may be equipped with flesh hooks at +1 point per model and/or implant attack at +6 points per model. Tyrant guard may replace their scything talons for lash whips at no extra cost."

So can I give one model implant attack, or would the whole squad need to have implant attack if any did? Same question for lash whips.

whocares wrote:I have three questions:

1) How do kill points work with a hive tyrant with tyrant guard? The FAQ says:

"This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the hive tyrant counts as an upgrade character for this unit) until the guards are all destroyed, at which point the hive tyrant reverts to normal rules for monstrous creatures."

So, if a hive tyrant just counts as an upgrade character for the unit (like a sergeant, I'm assuming) then the whole squad, tyrant included, is only one kill point. At least, that's the way I'm reading it. But I have heard the arguments that since they are two different entries they are two kill points and even that since the tyrant reverts to its previous rules when his guard is killed, if you kill the guard first, he becomes another kill point. I'm pretty sure I know the answer, I just want to put this one to rest.

It's 2 kill points no matter what order you kill them, He is a character accompanied by a retinue and the rules say that any character accompanied by a retinue is worth 2 kill points, 1 for the retinue and 1 for the character.

2) How do cover saves work with this unit?

The rules for monstrous creatures state fairly clearly that 50% of the model must be covered to get a cover save. But the rules for regular infantry (which is what the tyrant guard are) state that if at least half the models are obscured, in area terrain, etc. then the whole unit gets a cover save.

So, say for example I have my three tyrant guard and single hive tyrant in area terrain. According to the rules for infantry, the tyrant guard get a save from the area terrain, but the tyrant does not. But since they're a single unit and the guard comprise at least 50% of it, they should get a save, right?

As per the standard rules 50% or more of the unit needs to be in cover to confer a cover save on the entirety of the unit. So in your example yes all 3 models would have a cover save, the same would be true with only a single guard and tyrant.

3) Do tyrant guard have to be equipped uniformly?

Their entry says, "tyrant guard may be equipped with flesh hooks at +1 point per model and/or implant attack at +6 points per model. Tyrant guard may replace their scything talons for lash whips at no extra cost."

So can I give one model implant attack, or would the whole squad need to have implant attack if any did? Same question for lash whips.

I'm not entirely certain on this one but I was under the impression you could equip them differently, particulalry because I have seen someone who uses a lash whip on one and scything talons on the other.

No, the tyrant guard all must be equipped the same.

Drunkspleen is correct on the other 2 parts.

The entry does not say "each tyrant guard" but rather just "Tyrant Guard", referring to the whole unit. Of course the best thing to do is clarify with your opponent pre game/TO before going.

Drunkspleen wrote:It's 2 kill points no matter what order you kill them, He is a character accompanied by a retinue and the rules say that any character accompanied by a retinue is worth 2 kill points, 1 for the retinue and 1 for the character.

I suppose that makes sense. The only reason it would work differently than retinues for other armies is because the hive tyrant is not an independent character and pg. 91 only uses the word "character" and never specifies that they must be independent. It makes more sense this way, anyway.

Drunkspleen wrote:As per the standard rules 50% or more of the unit needs to be in cover to confer a cover save on the entirety of the unit. So in your example yes all 3 models would have a cover save, the same would be true with only a single guard and tyrant.

Thanks. That's what I thought. It seems counter intuitive for an MC to be getting a cover save, so I felt it worth asking.

Drunkspleen wrote:I'm not entirely certain on this one but I was under the impression you could equip them differently, particulalry because I have seen someone who uses a lash whip on one and scything talons on the other.

Simply basing my opinion on other codices written at the same time and other entries in the tyranid army list, it would make sense to me that you could differentiate the lash whip/scything talons but the implant attack/flesh hooks must be taken as a squad. For example, you can differentiate tyranid warrior's weapons but not their biomorphs. Further, if you look at the older space marine codices (which are the same era as this one) you can give the "entire squad" frag grenades at +1 point per model. The words "per model" were only there because the number of models in the squad could vary, not because you could selectively give certain models frag grenades. You could, however, give one marine a melta gun and another a las cannon, which I think is similar to giving one guard a lash whip and another scything talons. But with the wording the way it is, I can't really make a RAW argument against giving only one model flesh hooks/implant attacks unless somebody here knows better.

Gwar! wrote:No, the tyrant guard all must be equipped the same.

Drunkspleen is correct on the other 2 parts.

The entry does not say "each tyrant guard" but rather just "Tyrant Guard", referring to the whole unit. Of course the best thing to do is clarify with your opponent pre game/TO before going.

I would just like to know before I start dicing up tyrant guard arms so one can be armed with lash whips. If I had to arm the whole squad the same, I'd probably just leave them as scything talons. But one lash whip would be nice to try to get into base to base with that power fist.

As I said the wording is ambiguous. Your best bet is to make 1 Extra just in case wherever you are/whatever tournament you go to lets you have different weapons.

Gwar! wrote:As I said the wording is ambiguous. Your best bet is to make 1 Extra just in case wherever you are/whatever tournament you go to lets you have different weapons.

Fair enough. Thanks.

The cover save one is easy.

But I disagree about the KP. While it is far from absolute, I feel the rules taken as a whole indicate that the 2KP is for a retinue with IC.


And I believe the TG can take different choices.

coredump wrote:The cover save one is easy.

But I disagree about the KP. While it is far from absolute, I feel the rules taken as a whole indicate that the 2KP is for a retinue with IC.


And I believe the TG can take different choices.

Looking back on it, I think the squad being 2 kp is fairly straight forward. Pg 91 only mentions "characters" with a retinue, it never specifies "independent" characters. Additionally the tyranid FAQ uses almost the same wording word for word as the section about independent characters and retinues, with the sole difference being that hive tyrants revert to being monstrous creatures when their squad is killed instead of ICs. And finally, Imperial Guard junior officers and their squads are 2 KPs, and they never even could be taken as ICs.

I would tend to agree with you about the different choices on the tyrant guard, at least as far as lash whip/scything talons goes anyway.

That is the same logic that Drunkenspleen has used for the 2KP (and I have seen elsewhere), it also comes to the same conclusion as the INAT FAQ.

But when you look at the retinue rules themselves, they only use the term 'character', when they are clearly only referring to Independent Characters. I think taking the context of all the KP and retinue rules it shows that it is meant for only IC/retinues.

But it isn't that big of a deal either way.

I'm gonna disagree with the 2 KP as well. And it can be that big of a deal, here's why. If we go the slippery route of saying that any upgrade character in or with a retinue (retinue, per page 48, being a unit that the character cannot leave) counts as an additional KP, then we're saying that every Veteran Sgt, Champion, Warlock, etc etc, out there is worth an additional KP if they are in a unit. Since at that point they are a character in a unit they cannot leave. The IC portion of the Annihilation rule is key and is what prevents this from being so. So upgrade characters do not give an additional KP. Ergo, Tyrant and Guard are a single KP.

But the difference is the Tyrant CAN be on his own and the Guard can only be bought as a bodyguard/Retinue.

Doesn't matter. An upgrade character is an upgrade character. If we're going to say one is worth a separate KP, we have to be ready to say that all of them are worth a separate KP.

But SM Sergeants are not Upgrade characters at all, they are a basic part of the squad.

Though now that I think about it, I cannot find anything that says the Hive Tyrant is a Character, Independent or otherwise.

The only thing that suggests it is is the ability to take a Retinue.

Can we all agree this is an ambiguous case (Cause: Outdated Codex) and it has to be clarified pre game before someone starts saying nasty things and I get even more aggro?

double post

don_mondo wrote:I'm gonna disagree with the 2 KP as well. And it can be that big of a deal, here's why. If we go the slippery route of saying that any upgrade character in or with a retinue (retinue, per page 48, being a unit that the character cannot leave) counts as an additional KP, then we're saying that every Veteran Sgt, Champion, Warlock, etc etc, out there is worth an additional KP if they are in a unit. Since at that point they are a character in a unit they cannot leave. The IC portion of the Annihilation rule is key and is what prevents this from being so. So upgrade characters do not give an additional KP. Ergo, Tyrant and Guard are a single KP.

I think you're looking at this backwards. A retinue is a specific kind of squad with specific rules. A space marine tactical squad does not say anywhere that it is a retinue, therefor the retinue rules do not apply to it. However, tyrant guard are very clearly labeled as retinue and are therefor worth a separate kill point from whatever they were bought for. I think that the word "independent" was dropped from page 91 specifically for cases like this. Also, by your reasoning, there is no reason to even apply page 91 to independent characters. There is no reason to assume that the terms "character" and "independent character" are interchangeable, unless you're simply assuming that there was a typo on pg 91 and the word independent was left out, which is quite a big assumption.

This also brings up the wacky scenario that I addressed in my first post. The tyranid FAQ clearly states that when the guard die, the hive tyrant reverts to being a monstrous creature. If he is considered an upgrade character for the squad when it is alive, but an entirely separate unit after it is killed, wouldn't it stand to reason that if you kill off the retinue first, then the tyrant after he has reverted to his own separate squad that they are two separate kill points? But if you kill the tyrant first, when he is just an upgrade character for the squad, then they are one kill point?

Although assumption must be used either way as the term "character" on pg. 91 is never clarified, it seems simplest and most logical to me to assume that "character" refers to the model for which the retinue is an upgrade.

Agreeded with whocares (i think, he wrote lots :( ) - It says retinue and thats good enough. You do-not buy the guards with a tyrant (its costing is not listed there), you buy the Tyrant with some guards.

As for the tyrant guards weapons - all the other sqauds (bar a few) specifically mention having to equip the squad as a whole in terms of weapon symbiotes. If we treat tyrant guard like warriors (as that makes sense, with thier wording the way it is) then they all have to have the same biomorph upgrades buy may equip weapons per model. Job done. 3/4 of a 4man squad can be unique.

Razerous wrote:Agreeded with whocares - It says retinue and thats good enough. You do-not buy the guards with a tyrant (its costing is not listed there), you buy the Tyrant with some guards.

Yes... the Tyrant may not be an IC but it is a unit on it's own when bought. Buying a retinue for it makes it two units worth of kill points.

I think you're looking at this backwards. A retinue is a specific kind of squad with specific rules. A space marine tactical squad does not say anywhere that it is a retinue, therefor the retinue rules do not apply to it.

That is not how it works. If the IC is in a unit that it cannot leave, that unit *is* a retinue. It does not need the 'title' of retinue to be one.

There is no reason to assume that the terms "character" and "independent character" are interchangeable,

Check out p.48, they do it all the time.

You *can't* get a Broodlord as a unit by itself.... does that mean his retinue is not really a retinue? Does that mean it isn't worth 2 KP?
Of course not, becuase being able to buy them separately is not one of the determining factors.

coredump wrote:That is not how it works. If the IC is in a unit that it cannot leave, that unit *is* a retinue. It does not need the 'title' of retinue to be one.

"Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they can not leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue,' 'bodyguard,' or similar.)"

That leads me to believe that retinues are a special unit, not just any unit that has an upgrade character.

coredump wrote:Check out p.48, they do it all the time.

I suppose they do, you have a point there.

coredump wrote:You *can't* get a Broodlord as a unit by itself.... does that mean his retinue is not really a retinue? Does that mean it isn't worth 2 KP?
Of course not, becuase being able to buy them separately is not one of the determining factors.

I don't think I made this argument, but perhaps you're responding to someone else.

Odd, I entered this thread thinking the answer would be one KP and I find myself defending the opposite stance.

Gwar, check out the Nid FAQ, refers to the Tyrant as an "upgrade character" with a retinue.
Now, Annihilation rule. A character plus retinue is worth 2KP. IMO, this is referring only to ICs, due to........
Retinue rule (in the ICs joining/leaving section), "Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they can not leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue,' 'bodyguard,' or similar.)"

But if we want to say that it also applies to upgrade characters, just so that the Tyrant is worth an additional KP, well then...........
So, is a vet sgt an upgrade character? Let's see, model in a unit, increased leadership, yadda yadda, yep, he qualifies. Is he in a unit that he cannot leave (doesn't matter what the unit is called, all that matters is that it's a unit the character cannot leave during the game pg 48)? Well, he's not an IC so he definitely can't leave it, so again, qualifies. So, the we have a character in a retinue and the same rules that some are wanting to apply to the Tyrant would therefor apply to the Vet Sgt.

Simply put. The retinue rules and annihilation rules both are referring to and apply to ICs and ICs only. The Tyrant is not an IC, does not become an IC when the unit dies (also part of the Annihilation rulem BTW) and so does not meet the Annihilation rule criteria for 2 KP. Doesn't matter that they call the Tyrant Guard a retinue because you have to have both halfs of the equation before you have the whole. You've got a retinue, but you don't have an IC.

don_mondo wrote:Gwar, check out the Nid FAQ, refers to the Tyrant as an "upgrade character" with a retinue.
Now, Annihilation rule. A character plus retinue is worth 2KP. IMO, this is referring only to ICs, due to........
Retinue rule (in the ICs joining/leaving section), "Some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they can not leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue,' 'bodyguard,' or similar.)"

Nothing about IC's only in the KP Rules

don_mondo wrote:But if we want to say that it also applies to upgrade characters, just so that the Tyrant is worth an additional KP, well then...........
So, is a vet sgt an upgrade character? Let's see, model in a unit, increased leadership, yadda yadda, yep, he qualifies. Is he in a unit that he cannot leave (doesn't matter what the unit is called, all that matters is that it's a unit the character cannot leave during the game pg 48)? Well, he's not an IC so he definitely can't leave it, so again, qualifies. So, the we have a character in a retinue and the same rules that some are wanting to apply to the Tyrant would therefor apply to the Vet Sgt.

If you buy the Vet Sargent as an Upgrade (ala the old codex's) then yes, he would count as an Upgrade Character and one could argue gives up another Kill point. However, the Retunie rule states "characters together with a special unit that they can not leave during the game" not "units that have had a character bought for them. See the difference?. The Broodlord counts as a Retune+Character because he is Specifically Stated to be an IC+Retinue. The Tyrant is a Character + Retune. They are both 2 KP.

don_mondo wrote: Simply put. The retinue rules and annihilation rules both are referring to and apply to ICs and ICs only. The Tyrant is not an IC, does not become an IC when the unit dies (also part of the Annihilation rule BTW) and so does not meet the Annihilation rule criteria for 2 KP. Doesn't matter that they call the Tyrant Guard a retinue because you have to have both halfs of the equation before you have the whole. You've got a retinue, but you don't have an IC.

The Retune Rules do not distinguish between IC and Characters in any shape or form.

Correct, the KP rules do not specifically say IC.

Doesn't matter how the unit is bought. Is he a character and is he in a unit he cannot leave? that's all that matters if you want to say the rule applies to upgrade characters.

Even tho the retinue rules are in a section that is dealing specifically with ICs joining and leaving units..............? Implying that they only apply to ICs..............?

I think Mondo is right on this one. Since the Tyranid FAQ specificly refers to the Hive Tyrant as an upgrade character that is what he is. Does Tellion, Zagstruck, Snikrot, or kahrnack give an extra kill point? No. Though, I will admit the rules are not cut and dry on this this is just my opinion. Niether of which are the way to do it, just a way to do it.

Well, can we at least agree that since there is so much debate about it, that it is at best considered ambiguous and the most prudent thing is to clarify with your opponent/TO before playing to ensure happiness and joy for all?

Of course. This topic is ambigous and naturaly all we can do is guess how it is to be handled. Talkingwith your opponent in a fendly game and talking to the TO in the case of a tournament.

IMO it's 2 KP's. Again with their crappy/lazy wording, GW has muffed it. No one else has seemed to hit upon the idea that the HT is made an "upgrade" character for the specific purpose of not allowing it to be singled out in CC. This, taken with the phrase "This unit follows the rules for retinues...." would clear up any ambiguities, I think.

Do you have to kill off all the guard before wounding the Tyrant or do the wound allocation rules change that?

i may have been bamboozled in my last game vs nids!

Deuce11 wrote:Do you have to kill off all the guard before wounding the Tyrant or do the wound allocation rules change that?

i may have been bamboozled in my last game vs nids!

If there are 3 Guard and a Tyrant, if you cause 4 wounds, 3 go on the Guard and 1 goes on the tyrant. All the guard do is add ablative wounds (since normally you can pick out MC's), but are still subject tot he wound allocation rules.

The first wound can go on the HT, it is totally up to the defending player. Just as if it was a sgt