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With the Doom Train IG dex on the horizon, and every tread head and their mother having privy to its contents, i was wondering: whats going to be strong against it?


mech marine/chaos/eldar lists?

nob bikers?

im pretty sure drop pod/daemon armies are gaped by the advisors...

just curios what will be strong against them =))


thanks!

A list that can cover lots of ground fast, because Basilisks have a hilarious minimum range now (something like 36").

A Drop Pod Assault list would cream them.

An Ork Gunline would blow them apart.

IG are still screwed for KP, so template weapons are your friend.

Drop pods creaming guard?
Ever hear of mystics?
Or the advisors that give -1 each for reserves?
Ork gunline....... I dont see them blowing the guard apart anytime soon.

Mystics? Advisors? Cool I can co-ordinate the Pods to drop next to them. Say hello to my little Ironclad.

Well, you have to actually use/fight an Ork Gunline in order to see. Autocannons can penetrate most of your vehicle armor and insta-kill any big 'n important fellows that might be thrown at them.

Oh look, Lootas carry Autocannons.

Ironically, I think tau might have an easier time agianst them, which is ironic since tau now have terrible match ups with 75% of the armies out there.

Drop pods creaming guard?
Ever hear of mystics?
Or the advisors that give -1 each for reserves?

He wont effect the first turn, its not to hard to punk him out with a unit of sternguard.



Dark eldar will eat them for breakfast. 100 pts for 10 warriors with BS4 and 2 darklances I never leave home without at least two squads. Not to mention the fact that every transport has 1 Dark lance and a model with a blaster.

Wow, Nofasse....

Advisors, you can have up to 2 of each kind... so you are getting -2 to your reserves rolls, which will annihilate your drop podders. On top of that if they take Mystics from the Inquisition, if your drop pods finally do make it to the table, a unit within 4d6" of the mystic can shoot your drop podders, yes that includes entire tank squadrens on your turn.

No one is going to use basilisks, I know I'm not. I'm converting all of mine to Medusas. Oh god, S10 AP1 2d6 penetration is too godly for any armor to withstand. With no minimum range like the bassies, medusas will own the field.

Tau will cower against how many tanks IG will be fielding, 3 hammerheads is no where near enough. 9 Broadsides will make sure 3 tanks are dead but may the emperor protect you on the IG's turn, they will pound every heavy weapon at you with absolute brutality. You CANNOT outgun this new guard. Tau are the closest I can see to being able to outshoot guard, tho. And that is with the 9 broadsides.

Orcs will just utterly fail, autocannons can't penetrate 14 armor and only glance the lowest armor in the army (12) on 5's... Orcs are better off just bum rushing guard gun lines. Guard will outshoot you, they will. No doubt. If you sit back and just shoot guard now, you will lose.

Against the big 'n' important guys, autocannons aren't going to be able to auto kill the majority of the guys they should be concerned about. A lot of the really good assaulting Guard characters are T4, sorry =/

[edit] lol, silly Dark Eldar. Dark Lances will take out tanks if you roll 5+ twice in a row, which would be pretty cool. Hydra Flak tanks will just laugh at you though. oh, you moved over 12" so you get a cover save? Flak says otherwise. With the increasing amounts of Eldar (Bright and Dark), I might actually invest in a squad of these bad boys. I will admit tho, DE will not be easy because they can field quite a bit of lances. [edit]

They fixed the whole KP thing without making it slowed. IG can have squads of 50 now, no non-apocolypse sized army can do that. Niether can any non apocolypse army field 14 AV tank squadrens.

The only army I can possibly see beating the new guard are assaulting armies like blood angels or ork mobs. Even then, if you ever have a unit not in combat on a guardsmen's turn, they will most definately die.

I've said it like twice in two other threads lol.... I plan on carrying two Punishers (depends if you choose HS pintle or not, and assuming it's HB hull/spons) 29-32 shots, at possibly BS4 for one.... I'm pretty sure some one's gunna die the only downside is 24" range for the gatling gun, but same armor value as a Demolisher, and pack two of them babies, even if you move you can still fire off 40 from both the gatlings. aaaaaaaaand Lumbering Behemoth rule will most definitely mess up some faces. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON "FRFSRF" WITH A 50 MAN SQUAD ;D

Nenya97 wrote:Wow, Nofasse....

Yeah. Wow. I know. I'm awesome apparently.

Nenya97 wrote:No one is going to use basilisks, I know I'm not. I'm converting all of mine to Medusas. Oh god, S10 AP1 2d6 penetration is too godly for any armor to withstand.

Monoliths.

Nenya97 wrote:Tau will cower against how many tanks IG will be fielding, 3 hammerheads is no where near enough. 9 Broadsides will make sure 3 tanks are dead. Tau are the closest I can see to being able to outshoot guard, tho. And that is with the 9 broadsides.

Actually, since you seem to love your new tank squadrons, a unit of 3 Broadsides could really do a number on a squadron.

Nenya97 wrote:Orcs will just utterly fail, autocannons can't penetrate 14 armor and only glance the lowest armor in the army (12) on 5's... Orcs are better off just bum rushing guard gun lines. Guard will outshoot you, they will. No doubt. If you sit back and just shoot guard now, you will lose.

I said MOST of your armor. If it's not 14, it's usually 12 and under. With the amount of shot Lootas put out you can guarantee penetrating hits on your armor.

Nenya97 wrote:Against the big 'n' important guys, autocannons aren't going to be able to auto kill the majority of the guys they should be concerned about. A lot of the really good assaulting Guard characters are T4, sorry =/

But they don't usually get good saves and have low Wound counts, sorry =/

Nenya97 wrote:They fixed the whole KP thing without making it slowed. IG can have squads of 50 now, no non-apocolypse sized army can do that. Niether can any non apocolypse army field 14 AV tank squadrens.

Sure you've got large amounts of Guardsmen. But Guardsmen are still Guardsmen. Oh look, all I gotta do is Immobilize one of those AV 14 vehicles to blow it up. Weehee.

Nenya97 wrote:The only army I can possibly see beating the new guard are assaulting armies like blood angels or ork mobs.

Awesome. World Eaters. Berzerkers love to eat Guardsmen, especially if they come in groups of 50.

I think the 75 pt autocannon squad will be the new champion unit, especially against lootas. Dirt cheap, puts out a ridiculous amout of firepower for its value, and is ONE target for return shooting. You can get quite a few of these for the cost of one of those loota mobs, outshoot it, and in return, all those surviving lootas can only shoot at ONE of the AC squads.

btw, 3 broadsides against AV 14 will on average get 1.125 results (counting glancing and penetrating). Thats one russ on average (less than that if 2 of the 3 tanks can claim cover), and not likely to actually put 2 of them out of commission on any given shot, so in that case, the squadron really doesnt hurt the russes that badly much of the time.

The problem with assault armies is that under the current rules for assaulting multiple units, you are going to have a hard time hiding from enemy guns in his shooting phase, since you will most likely wipe the squads you are hitting, and will be flapping in the wind immediately afterwards.

Guard assault units are still terrible. Nuff sed.

Numerous Fast mobile str 8 weapons. To engage the numerous tanks fielded & to reach around to side armor values.

I reckon swooping hawks could well make a come back with thier grenades & the sheer volume of armor thatll likely be fielded in new IG lists.

Blast weapons.

I do have to agree with Nofasse on one point. Shooting at squadroned vehicles.

Its not impossible to get rid of them all with just glancing hits if you squad them up. Its not hard at all to get an immobilized result on that chart. I actually see it coming up more often with glancing then I do with penetrating.

As for how to deal with the huge 50 man imp gaurd squads. So long as you can get them into combat you could surely wittle them down every turn. its not fun for any army to have a -3 or so to ld each turn just to stay in there.

If they break just follow them off the board. its pretty easy to follow 40+ guardsman around till one encounters a table edge.

Pinning weapons also hurt a guard army alot more then any other army out there. If you fail it once that's alot of guns your not firing for a turn.

Also blast templates are your friend. There is almost no way you could miss firing into a horde like that. I think missile launchers will become even better against them.

Also ment to quote old skool. it would be a shame that in the multiple combats you lost 100+ gaurdsman from failing some leadership tests hmm.

I guess most of the people that say IG is screwed have not played a good IG player. I personally would have np dealing with DS and or horde orks with standard army.

Advisors, you can have up to 2 of each kind... so you are getting -2 to your reserves rolls, which will annihilate your drop podders.

You keep forgetting that in the first turn you get half of your pods without rolling, your advisors will be dead before you know what happens.

[edit] lol, silly Dark Eldar. Dark Lances will take out tanks if you roll 5+ twice in a row, which would be pretty cool. Hydra Flak tanks will just laugh at you though. oh, you moved over 12" so you get a cover save? Flak says otherwise. With the increasing amounts of Eldar (Bright and Dark), I might actually invest in a squad of these bad boys. I will admit tho, DE will not be easy because they can field quite a bit of lances. [edit]

How do do you figure I will need two 5s? 3+ to hit then a 4+ has a chance to destroy (Remember for squads Imobilize = Destroyed), So how many hydras are you going to run? Go ahead and waste 100+ pts on them, I guarantee that I have 5 times the number of raider / Ravagers with DLs on them. This is how it will go:

I get first turn, all my boats move 12" and fire, my warrior squads all fire, 80% of your army is dead or crippled.

If You get first turn, Kill 5-6 boats, maybe a squad of warriors, all my boats move 12" and fire, my warrior squads all fire, 70% of your army is dead or crippled.

The fact is that a list that has 25+ DL will beat an armor based list every time, I am the rock to your scissors.

As far as pods go, they and Deamons are a non issue. If you take a mystics then each pod that comes down takes three demolisher rounds to the face. Of course this goes back to the old "do drop pods deep strike?" debate but what ever. As far as dark eldar go. I am not too scared. They are the glass hammer army. If you can keep them from alpha striking you, they will fold under concentrated fire. Really IG has no problem popping multi av10 units.

Drop pod lists will still be very strong. Take 7, get 4 on the first turn. Kill tanks and guard.

The last 3 are likely to be a non-issue as your advisors should be dead and bloated. My drop pod army is built to survive and decimate from the initial drop. The other pods are usually dropped on my objectives or just a bonus in kp games.

Dark Eldar are still going to be the death of guard armies.

Chaos will struggle a bit. Those pie plates will hurt badly. If CSM get the first turn, then they will be fine. If they don't then it will be bloody.

A well generaled ork army should pound the guard. They can't shoot a squad in combat and between the wagons and the sheer volume of orks, if played properly, orks will shine. Ghaz will be a tank-eating monster.

Building a list to beat the new IG will weaken your army to everything else. Not to mention the new Dex has so many build no one list is going to be the end all beat all for guard.

Saying "OH YEA I can take this!!" doesnt mean you will have it when you get to the table.

I dont have a problem with Theoryhammer, I do have a problem with people who say "I WIN" in every instance.

I would definently go with a army list more leaning towards the Elites and heqavy infantry and tanks depending on who you are

Unless the tank rules are extremely different than previous guard codexs, I dont see any issues here. And with the tank squad rules now in 5th, it should be even easier. Emperor knows I get more immobilized results than anything else on the damage table...

I dont have a copy of the new Dex yet so its hard to say, but my ravenwing army has always had an easy time with guard armies.

Keep in mind that 99% of the time you can hold your own stuff in reserve now. Guard can just stay off the board, let your first wave of drop pods / demons land, and then roll on from the other side of their deployment zone. They can also get +2 to their reserve rolls. Best way to keep those advisors alive: don't put them on the table.

Basilisk can fire inside of 36"
Anything with a minimum range that is barrage can be fired directly. It's in the BBB.

Berserker spam. Nuff said.

I'll reply to this as a guy who has been getting games in with my IG army under the new rules. I'll go army by army and talking about CURRENT popular builds. many armies will tweak their lists and get better versus IG.

Orks- lootas and shootas. This is the army that IG is gunning for. There are multiple hard counters to lootas in the new IG book, and they are all fieldable. Colossus and eradicator are complete shut-downs for lootas. And they are popular. People are looking to take a lot of griffons as well. 'Fire on my target' with infantry squads into ork boys, and too many vehicles that aren't interested in getting close to power klaws. Snikrot is mandatory now for this build, and with chimeras full of platoon command quads with 4x flamers, and with 5 fire points i a chimera, even ole snikrot is a one-hitter quitter.

Orks- Nob bikers. it depends on the IG build. Strength 8+ large blast is going to ruin them, as is a highly mechanized force, or an MSU army with long enough range to spread wide across the table. there are however, a lot of IG builds that I am looking at as a take on all comers, that would indeed have a hard time with nob bikers. I'd say it really depends on who guard key on.

CSM- lash. Lash does NOT want to matchup with IG. Its really just a disaster matchup. A well played IG army will screen their heavy armor with enough foot troops to not allow DSing oblits to get their multi-meltas in range. A single leman russ executioner will just 'peace out' those oblits after they land, and as long as it isn't a KP game, the lash prince has nothing of value to lash that won't get him killed in the process. In a KP game it can pull a 250 point infantry blob and kill it, claim one KP, then give up his own KP to massed multi-laser/heavy bolter/autocannon fire.

CSM- Assault. This army I'm probably most afraid of with IG. Land raiders, lesser demons, berserkers. I've seen the fire power IG has. It's not an auto-loss. But I see the land raiders making it. I see units getting tied up and gobbled up by lesser demons, and I see berserkers surviving long enough to do REAL damage. Heavily mechanized IG have the best chance here. But the appropriate amount of anti-tank squeezed into a berzerker list can ruin a mech players gameplan.

SM- dro pod assault. This is where the advisors come in. If you are even remotely mechanized, start the game off table, roll everyone in on turn 2 on a 3+, and then lock down future reserves for a turn or two. That exact tactic I think was mentioned earlier. You could roll on, slap a weaken resolve on a sternguard unit, kill 3 marines, and then just walk it off the table with a 55 point chimera. Hello ironclads? I'd like you to meet veterans in a chimera with 3x meltas.

SM-Thammers and land raiders. A difficult matchup for IG again. Similar to the CSM cc list. Depends on how well you neutralize the LRCs, and then it depends on how lucky your opponent rolls on his saves. Those termie units don't really die to anything the IG has except an entire army FRFSRF. And they are at home attacking anything the IG has except a huge stubborn blob.

Demons- Fleet officer, 'bring it down' with autocannons and plasma guns, and sacrficial 10 man infantry squads takes care of everything except bloodcrushers. They slide under the 'bring it down' radar, have power armor, T5 makes lasguns really weak, and can shred even stubborn guys pretty fast. Well played bloodcrushers will give th IG a tough game for sure. Fateweaver however, just might not be worth it anymore, one weaken resolve and a heavy bolter, and he's gone. I think we'll see more GUOs.

Nids- zilla. Coffin nail. not good at killing tanks? Entire army can be shot at using 'bring it down'? Slow? Outflanking genestealers coming on the wrong side of a denied flank thanks to fleet officer? I bet there is a build in that book that is more balanced, and a bit faster that could scare guard. Like if you could get hormagaunts to work... but the jurassic lists from 4th edition that are still limping along out there are done-zo.

Eldar- mech. 'bring it down' autocannons, physical screens protecting leman russes from fusion guns. Multiple leman russ eradicators. Hydras (if taken) Vendettas hitting the rear of wave serpents off of an outflank. A lot of staple mech eldar techniques are just fine for dealing with elite armies, and dire avengers do very well until they meet an eradicator or even a griffon battery. I haven't put too much thought into this matchup, but the IG love of autocannons, mixed with the big buff that autocannons got has just got to make this a bad match for eldar.

Eldar- zilla. Actually I usually find this list to be much weaker than mech for eldar, but I think its a pretty good match for eldar here. Wraithguard aren't really facing off against a hard counter, and their guns will certainly create a large area denial bubble, which will force the IG to stay boxed up. Wraithlord lances can conceivable pull apart russes outside of a physical screen (which really only counters meltas) and if you can keep dire avengers alive long enough, they can certainly put a hurting on guard infantry. Harlequins also fare very well against IG. IG doesn't really have a 'go get em' unit, possibly driving a rocket pod valkyrie right next to the harlies and unloading could hurt them, but if they are covered by wraithguard and wraithlords, then that valkyrie is probably coming down right after that.

SOB- mech. SOB look to ahve a fairly good matchup. Their immos and rhinos are going to be shredded, but unlike eldar mech, they don't really rely on the transports for wins. Once they are on foot, they can just march forward, taking 3+ armor saves, and then lay down flamer templates. I think i will plan to have a couple 20 man stubborn units handy to lock down sisters squads as they get into flamer range. Their exocists will be golden here. Popping valks like balloons, and staying relatively safe from meltas with their long range.

necrons. I'm sorry, weaken resolve equals like turn 3 phase out every game.

grey knights. I haven't really considered this matchup. The mismatch in model count has to just hurt the GK so much. You'll just have to take too many saves once you get close and there isn't going to be anything juicy enough to go after that isn't physically screened.

dark eldar- mech. I don't know. On paper it looks like the DE would just ruin IG. Way too many dark lances, way too fast (unless IG takes tons of hydras) and can shred through stubborn tarpits very quickly.

black templars. (see thammer space marines)

space wolves. (see CSM assault)

dark angels- deathwing assault/multi-wing. Better hope he doesn't have an executioner and a plasma gun in each line squad. He probably will.

tau- mech. I think this is just a case of not enough firepower. Autocannons will pull down warfishesthrough their disruption pods with weight of fire, and the tau just aren't putting enough pressure on IG. IG can actually move forward in this matchup. Which really takes away any of the drawbacks that IG has.

tau- pos.relay- If their are lots of russes, and the IG player is good about screening them, then that could be a problem. But IG is so slow, and both chimeras and infantry squads are really succeptable to kroot outflanks, and you can get inside those artillery minimum ranges with pathfinder assisted deep strikes. I bet a ninja tau player could get plenty of wins against IG. The fleet officer's reserve alteration wouldn't affect you but his outflank re-roll might be a bit of a pain in the ass. I still think thats a good matchup for tau.


What i really like about guard is how well it does against the best competitive army in the game (lash chaos) and how well it matches up against the strongest codex in the game (orks) It has a lot of threats for eldar and nids as well, and isn't worried about gimmick marine armies.

It will do well at tourneys for these reasons. But demons, and well built well rounded in your face marine armies, anything SUPER fast (dark eldar, nob bikers) or things that make heavy use of outflank (pos.relay tau, kommando/deffkopta orks) will all have advantages over IG.

1 Million Spinegaunts with Scuttlers (scout)

and without number

Now notice how most of the lists that Shep mentioned are boned against the new IG?

Does nobody else find a problem with this?

Clthomps wrote:

Advisors, you can have up to 2 of each kind... so you are getting -2 to your reserves rolls, which will annihilate your drop podders.

You keep forgetting that in the first turn you get half of your pods without rolling, your advisors will be dead before you know what happens.

[edit] lol, silly Dark Eldar. Dark Lances will take out tanks if you roll 5+ twice in a row, which would be pretty cool. Hydra Flak tanks will just laugh at you though. oh, you moved over 12" so you get a cover save? Flak says otherwise. With the increasing amounts of Eldar (Bright and Dark), I might actually invest in a squad of these bad boys. I will admit tho, DE will not be easy because they can field quite a bit of lances. [edit]

How do do you figure I will need two 5s? 3+ to hit then a 4+ has a chance to destroy (Remember for squads Imobilize = Destroyed), So how many hydras are you going to run? Go ahead and waste 100+ pts on them, I guarantee that I have 5 times the number of raider / Ravagers with DLs on them. This is how it will go:

I get first turn, all my boats move 12" and fire, my warrior squads all fire, 80% of your army is dead or crippled.

If You get first turn, Kill 5-6 boats, maybe a squad of warriors, all my boats move 12" and fire, my warrior squads all fire, 70% of your army is dead or crippled.

The fact is that a list that has 25+ DL will beat an armor based list every time, I am the rock to your scissors.

Really.

You can kill armor with DL's! WTF!!! Oh, and lets just do a little mathhammer on this one: 30 DL's, 20 hits, 10 glance or pen, 5 are saved because of infantry screen or camo netting, and you kill around 3 tanks if in a squadron. Oh noooes! looks like 3 tanks are 80% of my army!!! No, wait, they aren't! Congratulations. You've killed three tanks while shooting your whole army! Yay! You definitely have an insta-win there!

And with the new squadrons, what sane guard player will only field 3 tanks? (well, depends on their budget and the points of the battle)

We have many many many new tanks and stuffs. Which ones will you kill first? CHOOSE WISELY!! ;D

My point exactly, and, assuming we get first turn, a lot more than 5 Raiders are going down.

not to mention a squad of 50 guards(maybe vet. bs4) firing all into their one squad. All that matters is, something's gunna die.

The only downside is, with all this shooty goodness, very few guard players would be able to master the art of fitting some anti-assault units in a small point list and still keep strong firepower (1750 is the new small points mark)

either way, regardless of whether or not the IG win the entire battle, you wont kill everything, and you most likely wont have very much of what you first deployed.