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It would seem that orders can be issued on your opponents turn. Most people I have spoken with are under the impression that you can as orders are simply issued 'in the shooting phase' and the order: 'Incoming!' would have absolutely no point if it was issued on your own turn. Opinions, Comments, Questions?! GO! GO! GO!

... In comming would be used for when you see bunch of DA with doom seer comming into their shooting range.

Then you use that and pray there are some guards still left in 1 piece.

So no i dont think its used on opponent's turn.

Of course you can not issue orders during your opponents turn.

Incoming! has to be issued in your turn in anticipation of enemy aggression.

Huge long discussion on this on other forums. IMO, intent is NO.
BUT! It does indeed seem as if you can issue orders in your opponent's turn, per RAW. An officer can issue orders "each turn". Per page 9 of the main rulebook, "turn" means Player turn. SO an officer can issue orders each player turn. And most of the shooting orders say something like the unit immeditaely does so-and-so, so not only can you issue orders in your opponents turn, but you can shoot as well.

Again, I don't believe that you are supposed to be able to issue orders in your opponents turn, but they loused up the rule phrasing enough that those who want to push it do have an argument.

Not that I have a codex yet (what happened to an officie 5/5 release date?)... an argument against by RAW seems to be some place where it says the officer gives the order before firing or shooting. Which an officer does not do on the other player's turns without something saying it does. If you assume that it does, this makes sense, if you assume that it doesn't, this makes sense.

I'm quite confident it's not intended, as if you could issue orders in both player turns it would mean each commander and platoon commander gets to issue his set number of orders for shooting and then can proceed to force the same number of units to go to ground with the bonus in the enemys phase.

But as it's written since turn defaults to player turn, not game turn, yes it's allowed to be done in the opponents turn by RAW.

edit: Even worse you can use the orders in your turn then use the exact same orders in the enemies turn to get something like 12 of your units to have an extra round of shooting in the opponents shooting phase. That would be utterly gamebreaking

If the wording allows you to issue orders on enemy turns, then my Carnifex can also shoot in the enemy turn, call the Waaaagh! turn 1 if you go second and all other nonsense.

At the point where you're suggesting you can shoot in the enemies shooting phase its pretty obvious that you're barking up the wrong tree.

Hymirl wrote:At the point where you're suggesting you can shoot in the enemies shooting phase its pretty obvious that you're barking up the wrong tree.

If you can use any orders in the enemy shooting phase, you can use ALL orders in the enemy shooting phase.

I'm not saying you can, I would never play it that way. But it's definitely all or nothing, which is part of the reason I feel it's definitely not meant to be used in both players' turns

don_mondo wrote:And most of the shooting orders say something like the unit immeditaely does so-and-so, so not only can you issue orders in your opponents turn, but you can shoot as well.

The word "immediately" seemed to leap off the page to me and is what brought me to question this rule as possible RAI. "like the wind" (Pg. 63) is a special order used by Al Raheem the has the effect 'Immediately make a shooting attack... when it has been resolved move d6" in a direction of your choice." THis order seems fairly fluffy IMHO as the platoon shots its enemy and falls back 'like the wind' when threatened. While powerful I have seen more busty things out there, by far, that act as intended.

Now that I look at it FRFSRF says immediately too... yikes.

as written I think that there may be virtually no argument against this.

Drunkspleen wrote:
If you can use any orders in the enemy shooting phase, you can use ALL orders in the enemy shooting phase.

Incoming, FRFSRF and Like the wind are examples of orders that are useful in the enemy phase.

Incoming gives you good cover saves by going to ground, gtg is done during your opponents turn normally.

FRFSRF allows you to fire lasgun shots only, not exactly game breaking unless we are talking about a 50 man platoon.

Like the wind I already described and is by far the most potent 'on opponents turn' order as it is not limited to lasguns (yay!) and allows you to consolidate up to 6" possibly allowing the squad to avoid an assault. (I am running a 50 man al raheem platoon with a comissar and 5 powerfists though, so I like the assault phase!)

Gwar! wrote:If the wording allows you to issue orders on enemy turns, then my Carnifex can also shoot in the enemy turn, call the Waaaagh! turn 1 if you go second and all other nonsense.

Nope, cause nowhere in those (Carnie/Waaagh) entries does it say they can perform those actions "each turn", while the IG orders do say that they can be performed "each turn".
As for the before moving/shooting bit, nope again. Merely says that they have to issue orders before they can move (I'm assuming run) or shoot, not that the ability to move or shoot is a prerequisite to issuing an order. Otherwise, an officer in a Chimera that moved over 6" could not issue an order.

Again, I do not believe that the intent is to allow orders to be issued in the opponent's turn, but I cannot find any valid argument that disproves the possibility. It's the "each turn" bit in the line about officer's being able to issue orders that screws things up royally.

Thw wording for Waaagh! says I cannot do it on the first turn, it doesnt say the first ork turn. So if i go second, its the second turn so i can call the waaagh

Kungfuhustler wrote:It would seem that orders can be issued on your opponents turn. Most people I have spoken with are under the impression that you can as orders are simply issued 'in the shooting phase' and the order: 'Incoming!' would have absolutely no point if it was issued on your own turn. Opinions, Comments, Questions?! GO! GO! GO!

My first read through the Orders section would have me completely agreeing with. As the Orders section is written, and how the Orders themselves are written, make it difficult if not down right impossible to suggest otherwise. Now with that said, the only place I can see a discrepency is in the 'Could You Repeat That, Sir?' section.

It reads "If the test is failed, there had been a breakdown of communications. The order does not take effect, although both the officer's squad and the ordered squad may otherwise act normally (emphasis mine).

I'm stretching it a bit here, but I infer this to mean that since the only time my officer's squad (command/platoon) and ordered squad 'act normally' are on my turn, orders can only fail on my turn. Hence, orders may only be given on my turn. Bit of a stretch, and the rest of the Orders section seems to fly in the face of this, but what the , that's what YMTC is for

-Yad

Also, what about the 4th paragraph in the Orders section:

"Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run (whether the order was successful or not)."

Pretty straighforward here. If, on my Shooting phase, I shoot or run my Command Squad before issuing Orders, I cannot then issue Orders. So if, on my turn I issue orders and then run or shoot, I should not be able to issue orders until my next Shooting phase. Does this mean though that if I issue orders first and then do not shoot or run I can issue orders again on my opponents Shooting phase? For me that's a bit of a stretch. The quoted piece above tells me that Orders are only issued in the controlling IG players turn.

-Yad

Yad.
Act normally, ok, so they do nothing, just like they would normally do nothing.

shoot or run. OK. And? Both can be done through receiving orders. If orders can indeed be issued in the opponent's turn, then the officer's squad can indeed run or shoot in the opponent's turn. They just have to be sure to issue any orers they are going to issue before receiving orders telling them to do something. Besides, even if they can't run or shoot due to receiving no orders, they would still be issuing their orders before performing non-existant actions. The quoted section does indeed, IMO, IMPLY that orders are meant to be issued only in the IG player's own shooting phase, but it's not quite strong enough to overturn the "each turn" phrase, given everything else. Or are you going to say that the ability to run or shoot is required for an officer to issue an order. Think carefully and consider an officer in a chimera that has moved over 6" before answering. Also, (and I'll try to remember to scribble it down tonight) there is already a list of actions that prohibit an officer from issuing orders, locked in hth, in a vehicle (except of course chimera's), etc. Unable to run or shoot is not on that list.

THis whole thing is people easter egg hunting for something that does not exsist.

As I said on other forums, there is no way they gave IG the ability to have double the number of shooting phases as the rest of 40k, and no matter who gets to roll first turn.. they shoot you before you go.

Stop the insanity. Please.

C'mon Xerxes, let us talk about the way this is written w/o just naysaying. ALWAYS NAYSAYING! GO SIT IN YOUR TOWER!

Xerxes, as I said before, I agree that intent is likely that IG cannot issue orders during their opponent's turn. But the rule as written says they can. Personally, I won't do it. But how can I tell someone else they can't when the codex and main rulebook say they can?

Because they don't? To say they can is twisting the wording and easter egg hunting.

OK, Gwar, which part of "each turn" is twisting the wording or easter egg hunting? Per page 9 of the main rules?

Perhaps learning to read the whole rule would be nice, especially the bit that happens if you fail an order, which cannot happen if you do it in the opponents turn, but anyway.

As I have said, if you claim your guard can shoot in my shooting phase, my dakkafex can shoot in yours:

Page 51 wrote:Instead of firing a single weapon, monstrous creatures can fire two of their weapons once per Shooting phase.

It never says the shooting phase has to be mine, therefore I can shoot in every shooting phase, even yours!

don_mondo wrote:OK, Gwar, which part of "each turn" is twisting the wording or easter egg hunting? Per page 9 of the main rules?

Hi, are you new? Welcome to the GW hobby. Some common sense required.

Seriously, this wouldn't be at all annoying to me, except your first post in this thread was all "Oh, I know this is wrong, but it's worded in such a way that it might confuse other people."

Stop waffling and take a position: You are either going to issue orders during your opponents turn, or you are not. If you're not going to, it proves that the rules aren't as clear as you claim they are.

The word phase does not equal the word turn. Nowhere in the main rules does it say tht the word phase means "each player phase" It does say that for the word "turn". Therein lies the rub. As written, an IG officer can issue orders each (player) turn. This is the line that has to be broken. Not by whining and throwing hissy fits, "Oh if you doi that then I'll do this", but by proving, per the rules themselves, why it is not allowed.

Dave, no, I'm not new, I've been playing for about 14 years now. Former Outrider. Kommando. Main rules judge for the Baltimore Games Day 40K RTT for the last 4 or 5 years. Been around so long my first Dakka account died of old age and I had to get a new one. But welcome to the hobby yourself............ How long did you say you've been playing....? Now, are we done pissing on each other so we can discuss the rules or should we trade few more veiled insults?

And what does "common sense" have to do with how the rule is actually written. Many rules make absolutely no common sense when viewed logically. And I did take a position, or have you just decided it's more fun to jump on me. I will not take advantage of the loophole that says I can issue orders during my opponent's turn. What, you've never decided to not use a rule that you thought was wrong due to the advantage it gave you? However, this forum is for discussing what the rule actually IS, not how we play it or what we would like it to say. So I have to admit to the OP that yes, as written, an IG officer can issue orders during his opponent's turn. And that those orders take effect immediately. After all, we do already have a precedent. A Daemonhunter Inquisitor with Mystics can tell another unit to shoot during the opponent's turn if he detects deep striking /summoned units. And I do use that one!

Pg. 9 in the big rule book Headline "The Turn" second section "Game Turns and Player Turns."

"In a complete game turn, both players get a player turn, each one divided into Movement, Shooting and Assault phases (see Turn Sequence below). Exactly what is going to happen in each phase is described in the following sections of this book.

Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word 'turn', both in this rule book and in the Codexes, it means 'player turn', otherwise it will clearly state 'game turn'."

Now look at the Company command squad or any other officers special rules it states:

"The company commander may issue up to two orders per TURN." (Refer to BRB for what comprises a turn)

don_mondo wrote:Xerxes, as I said before, I agree that intent is likely that IG cannot issue orders during their opponent's turn. But the rule as written says they can. Personally, I won't do it. But how can I tell someone else they can't when the codex and main rulebook say they can?

Two ways to say No.

1) Explain that while your ok with it, others might not be, and the less civilized will beat his brains out with a club. No one wants that, it's painful, and even you aren't using your brain (hence the confusion about orders in the opponents turn), they are tough to clean off the scenery.

2) Beat his brains out with a club.

don_mondo wrote:The word phase does not equal the word turn. Nowhere in the main rules does it say tht the word phase means "each player phase" It does say that for the word "turn". Therein lies the rub. As written, an IG officer can issue orders each (player) turn. This is the line that has to be broken. Not by whining and throwing hissy fits, "Oh if you doi that then I'll do this", but by proving, per the rules themselves, why it is not allowed.

Well, let's see. "Py the rules themselves" the orders "must be issued at the start of the shooting phase." So your opponent can prevent you from issuing order merely by doing something during the shooting phase. At which point it's too late for you to issue your orders.

Of course, you can try to "beat him to the punch" by issuing your orders first. At which point you realize that this isn't Magic: The Gathering, and we don't actually have any rules for resolving "the stack." So the game just stalls.

This isn't RAW versus RAI. Playing Orders this way literally breaks the game. Which is actually a really good argument for not playing this way.

Dave47 wrote: At which point you realize that this isn't Magic: The Gathering, and we don't actually have any rules for resolving "the stack." So the game just stalls.

AmIDoiingItRite?

Gwar! wrote:AmIDoiingItRite?

Ehh, good enough.

Actually, I'm kind of digging on this concept. It's especially cool for Guard vs. Guard matches:

Player 1: Ok, I'm ordering "Bring it down!" on your Basilisk using my Lascannon Squad.
Player 2: Not so fast! In response to that, I tap my own Command Squad to order my Psykers to "Fire on My Target!"
Player 1: Damn!

Next Turn

Player 2: Ok, I fire with my Leman Russ.
Player 1: Not this time! Now I'm using my orders during your turn! I tap my HQ to "Fire on my Targer!"
Player 2: You've fallen into my trap! In response to your response, I'm going to tap my HQ to issue orders!
Player 1: Damn!

I, for one, welcome our new stack-based overlords.

But, you mean my Instants don't go right now? I know, let's play Iron Man MTG. Every card that goes to the graveyard is torn in half (real rule from the only MTG tourney I ever played in, it was just so much fun to tear the cards in half!) Yeah, it's silliness, but ain't it fun!!

Oh, re the start of the shooting phase thing, if the IG player announces, during his opponent's movement phase, that he has actions to take at the beginning of the shooting phase.................. Well, you see what I'm getting at?