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 Chute82 wrote:
If GW vanished over night the stores in my area would be alright. Magic the Gathering is what keeps the lights on in many of these shops. Miniature guys in my area don't spend half the money the magic group does.

Yeah, there is no question at all that MtG is king if the hill where it comes to recenue and keeping the lights on. Or being a relentless profit machine

If GW were to pack up its tents tonight, then the closest store to where I live would also close its doors.

The next closest, and much larger and more profitable, would shrug and shake their heads, then continue on with little to no change.

That smaller, more local, store specialized specifically because the larger store is more general.

But their chosen tactic leg shackles them to a capricious company that also has slimmer margins for the local retailer - making them very vulnerable to shifts within Games Workshop.

The preponderance of Direct Only items has already cut into their profits - I do not expect to see them last more than two more years.

The Auld Grump

I am speaking from a UK viewpoint where the club culture has always been stronger than the store culture.

That said, there were independent games shops before GW (in fact GW started as an independent games shop and only became a Warhammer shop in the past five years). The rise of GW was one reason for the decline of the indy game shop, but some of them managed to survive and in the past few years there have been some come-backs.

However the loss of Warhammer would no doubt be a blow to some FLGS, such as Dark Sphere, but not others such as Orc's Nest, who don't stock any GW stuff at all.

But, the Internet is another reason why the consumer side of the market is not so dependent on retail as it was 20 years ago. We can get info and products very easily compared to the old days.

To put the point differently, why would Perry Miniatures and the other 28mm historical figure companies collapse because GW folded? Why would Osprey, Sam Mustafa, FFG, all the 15mm and 6mm companies, and so on feel the loss of GW?

TheAuldGrump wrote:
The preponderance of Direct Only items has already cut into their profits - I do not expect to see them last more than two more years.

There are actually only a TINY number of items that are Direct Only (a number that almost approaches zero). There are a much larger number that are "web only", which means every indy store can buy the stuff, at the same trade discounts (at least in Canada), but they only get 1 free shipping order per month. Then they pay for P&S, which makes it much more expensive.

So what my store does is, if you want it and can wait for their next regular order (at the beginning of each month), you can get whatever discount you normally get (anywhere from 10% - 30%, depending on how much stuff you generally buy from them). But if you want it NOW, you just get a 10% discount, and they'll order it right away. It arrives via UPS in like, 3 business days from the UK. Seems to work for them and the customers both.

Kilkrazy wrote:But, the Internet is another reason why the consumer side of the market is not so dependent on retail as it was 20 years ago. We can get info and products very easily compared to the old days.

To put the point differently, why would Perry Miniatures and the other 28mm historical figure companies collapse because GW folded? Why would Osprey, Sam Mustafa, FFG, all the 15mm and 6mm companies, and so on feel the loss of GW?

On the Internet, I think there's less impulse buying than in brick & mortar stores. I can't even count the number of times I've bought stuff I neither needed nor was looking for, simply because it was on the new item shelf (this accounts for like, 90% of my PP collection, lol). Plus, the shipping fees really kill it for small purchases - like one pot of paint, one miniature, etc. If you have a good discounter, the price is usually better, too, and I'm not talking about GW stuff.

I think that other miniature companies would greatly benefit from a GW collapse, because no doubt some customers would satisfy their itch with other products. Take me for example; even though my total spending might be less, my spending to one or two other companies would undoubtedly be more.

However, it would be tough on *some* brick and mortar stores. Maybe it wouldn't shut them down, but they might have to lay some people off, or make adjustments (like moving). One thing that B&M stores love about GW products (or so store owners/managers have told me) is that they're very profitable. The price tag is pretty high, meaning even with a commonplace 10%-15% discount, the actual profit on a box of miniatures or a book is good. Also, GW absorbs *all* the costs of defective product. With P3 or Vallejo paint, for instance, if there's a problem, my B&M store gets stuck with the cost of returning it to *the manufacturer*. Not even the local distributor. What that means is that since it's not worth the trouble (and shipping, as international shipping out of Canada is stupidly expensive), the store just tosses the product and absorbs the loss. With GW, they just send a replacement, no questions asked. Plus, GW lets them return for credit any unsold/unopened printed materials (like Visions, White Dwarf, Codex, etc.), and up to a certain amount of other stuff, once a year. What that means is, they don't worry about stocking a shelves full of books that don't sell.

 Talys wrote:

TheAuldGrump wrote:
The preponderance of Direct Only items has already cut into their profits - I do not expect to see them last more than two more years.

There are actually only a TINY number of items that are Direct Only (a number that almost approaches zero). There are a much larger number that are "web only", which means every indy store can buy the stuff, at the same trade discounts (at least in Canada), but they only get 1 free shipping order per month. Then they pay for P&S, which makes it much more expensive.

So what my store does is, if you want it and can wait for their next regular order (at the beginning of each month), you can get whatever discount you normally get (anywhere from 10% - 30%, depending on how much stuff you generally buy from them). But if you want it NOW, you just get a 10% discount, and they'll order it right away. It arrives via UPS in like, 3 business days from the UK. Seems to work for them and the customers both.

In other words 'not worth it, don't bother'.

Because the thing about special orders is that folks want them quickly, and not have to wait a month until you put in your order.

Mind you - what I am hearing is second hand - because 'not worth it, not gonna bother' sums up my relationship with GW products over the last three years. (And counting.)

So it could just be that they tell their customers that they don't do it - but given that all they have is GW, and I don't buy GW, you can guess how much I have bought from them.

Making it harder for stores to carry your products makes it less likely that they will bother to carry your products.

The Auld Grump

@AuldGrump -

I dunno how you get, 'Not worth it'. If a store decides to stock something, they get it the same price as they always did. So if it was worth stocking before, nothing has really changed.

For a special order, GW stores don't carry stock and the goods are shipped internationally. So with the exception of the UK, an item will arrive faster and cost less getting it from an Indy store. They buy it on the website, on their account, so it's not like there's any great work.

I asked recently for my store to inquire about reavers (de jetties), and why they went web-only; the reply my store got was that GW just didn't have enough inventory to stock them at regional distribution centers, or that they don't have printed boxes at the moment, and that they would likely go back to regular local stock at some time in the future. I duuno, doesn't really sound that unreasonable to me.

For the vast majority of web only items, they are low, low volume sellers (like finecast characters that nobody buys). For a few more popular items like skyshield or whirlwinds or reavers, the FLGS is always order and stock them, and make up to their usual 40%, less whatever discounts they offer.

 Talys wrote:
@AuldGrump -

I dunno how you get, 'Not worth it'. If a store decides to stock something, they get it the same price as they always did. So if it was worth stocking before, nothing has really changed.

Most game stores do a significant chunk of their business on special orders. They won't stock everything as that is too expensive, they'll stock the basics and anything else can be special ordered and sent in their next regular shipment which comes in every 1-2 weeks.

Games Workshop is basically saying you can't do that. You have to have everything come in in only one order a month or we're gonna charge you extra on top of the already slim margins you are making. This means customers will be waiting to get their stuff from the local game store, which will drive them away and to other sources(GW directly). Or at least thats what GW wants to have happen. They're viewing their own distributors as competitors.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Games Workshop is basically saying you can't do that. You have to have everything come in in only one order a month or we're gonna charge you extra on top of the already slim margins you are making. This means customers will be waiting to get their stuff from the local game store, which will drive them away and to other sources(GW directly). Or at least thats what GW wants to have happen. They're viewing their own distributors as competitors.

I agree that on weird stuff, most hobby shops don't keep most items. Like who's gonna go out of their way to stock Wyrdvane Psykers, right? On the other hand, most people ordering the really weird stuff don't expect it super quick. It's really stuff like Vypers and Falcons -- normal, popular units -- that most customers would like rapid availability of. For these, actually stocking the popular stuff makes sense. If for no other reason, you can't impulse buy something if it's not on the shelf

But for special orders, look at it another way.

Talys wants to buy a Shrine of the Aquilla. He can either pay:

- $41.25 + S&H to Games Workshop and get shipped out in 24 hours and delivered in 2-9 working days.
- $41.25 + Insane S&H to Games Workshop and get it in about 2 (working) days.
- $41.25 + S&H to The Hobby Shop and get it in about 2-3 working days. Hobby shop makes 40%, which is NOT a slim margin.

Or if he has a helpful Hobby Shop, or is a part of some hobby club, or something of a discount:

- $41.25 with no S&H to the Hobby Shop and get it in half a week or so.
- Less than $41.25 (anywhere from 10%-25% discount) to the Hobby Shop and get it when they make their monthly order.

I mean, I just think out of all those alternatives, the two one suck the most for Talys

In my area, the least helpful hobby shop will do web orders; they just won't discount it at all. But it comes really quickly, and you don't have to pay S&H. Plus, you're not even committed to taking it. They'll just stick it on the shelf if you change your mind.

The "best" hobby shop in terms of helpfulness gives customers the choice of ordering it when they next place their free shipping order, and offer a good discount, OR ordering it right away, and giving a small discount (no S&H). There is a third hobby shop which kind of wings it and orders it whenever they feel like, but offers the same discounts as everything else in the store (depends on the size of your purchase). And these are offered to is to anyone who just asks. You can call in out of nowhere, and be buying like, one Vulkan He'stan model.

Maybe I am just blessed to live in an area with helpful hobby shops

But getting back to this from the OP's POV: I do agree that if GW wants to be as helpful as possible to "the GW customers", reducing or removing things like shipping and making Forge World more accessible by having fewer added costs -- that would go a really long ways. As loyal as any customer may be to GW (based on liking the product), they'll still hate paying things like shipping, or dealing with unrealistically high minimum order charges to avoid shipping.

 Talys wrote:

Maybe I am just blessed to live in an area with helpful hobby shops

It really depends of the seller and the relationship you have with him.

In my region, I can ask for something a bit "special" to my usual shop because he knows I'm a "big" customer who always pays everything at once, sometimes even in advance. So he knows that if I order something, I will take it no matter what. And it's usually big orders.

So he's willing to help me from time to time, even if it's not that interesting for him to do so. He's doing a favor to a regular customer.


On the other hand, he knows he doesn't earn much from that. It's more to please people than anything - because GW clearly doesn't help him. These times, I don't know why, he tends to have his commands late. I didn't even have everything I wanted the last time I did - he just receives half he asked.

So I totally understand sellers who say "not worth it" in that case. It's not such a rare situation in miniature wargaming - they simply don't sell that much in comparison to other games like MtG.

Or the seller can come to its senses, and drop GW like a rotting pig off the tailgate of a moving pickup. (Don't ask where that image came from.)

GW has worse margins than any other company in the business, then penalizes the seller for not following rules that no one else in the business has.

'Not worth it, ain't gonna bother' is exactly what GW deserves.

The Auld Grump

That is perhaps another of GW's Achilles Heels.

They still sell quite a lot through independants and in some countries like the USA rely on them for providing a retail presence in areas they can't cover themselves.

There will be a cost/benefit curve for sales of GW stuff against the nuisance and difficulty of stocking it under GW's apparently onerous terms of trade.

As sales decline overall, at some point it is no longer worth the hassle, and another FLGS decides to can GW games. It is unlikely that all the lost sales will simply transfer to GW directly, though given their better margin, they may be more profitable from keeping say 75% of the lost sales. But there may be a knock-on of losing some more network effect of having lots of players.

 Talys wrote:
One thing that B&M stores love about GW products (or so store owners/managers have told me) is that they're very profitable. The price tag is pretty high, meaning even with a commonplace 10%-15% discount, the actual profit on a box of miniatures or a book is good. Also, GW absorbs *all* the costs of defective product.

Things must have changed a bit then. I remember GW direct accounts to sell at around 55% MSRP, which was a pretty bad margin and no better (and often worse) than other lines through a distributor. The only thing worse was buying GW through a distributor! And GW had high stocking requirements to get and maintain the account. Back when they did blistered metals, you could only order quantities in sleeves of 2 blisters. Add that to a lack of event support and it was a pretty raw deal.

Yeah, Talys has let his naivety slip again and we can all see it. Top level discount is, IIRC, 40%. If you're then discounting on top, you're a long way from a normal size retail mark up.

Plus nearly every supplier absorbs the cost of defective product, that's just normal.

No, 40% is not a top level discount, and I am not being naïve. I've seen the trade order booklets; they're they same for every distributor who agrees to carry minimum GW stock in North America. The price is almost exactly 40% of MSRP on every item. There's a Canadian and US dollar column for each item. So on a $100 item, their cost is $60. I have also seen *many* Games Workshop invoices; happens when I'm buying something that isn't in their system, and they have to look it up, or if it's a new item. It's 40%.

I'll take a snapshot of one next time if ya don't believe me One of the shops here just leaves the booklet out for anyone to see. And any of the stores (around here) will simply tell you their cost on stuff if you're familiar with them. I mean, 40% margin is not exactly super spectacular or embarrassingly high; it's pretty normal retail margins. Everyone's gotta eat.

A couple of the stores that I buy stuff from are pretty happy with 10%-15% markup (which will be less profit than 10%-15% *margin*). Hence, 25%-30% discount. The best discount I can get here on GW product is 33%, which leaves the store approximately a 10% markup (on a $60 cost product, $100MSRP, they're selling it to me for $67) -- but I can't get this on everything, all the time; they're essentially being nice to me, possibly because there's a sale going on anyway, or I'm getting a lot of stuff.

Re: defective product -- when I get a defective Vallejo paint, I must now actually contact Vallejo. My store will do nothing for me because their distributor won't take it back. Which means, it goes into the trash. Started about two months ago. No joke!

@jmurph - yes, GW has minimum stocking requirements for what they consider core products. There's a list of stuff and you have to have so much of it on hand total. All "best seller" type stuff, though. I do not believe that you can buy GW stuff through distribution anymore, though. When you sign a trade agreement from them, you specifically agree that you won't sell it to anyone that you know will resell it. Maybe you can get GW stuff through GW with a discount as a reseller, *without* agreeing to minimum stocking levels; I'm not sure.

That's through a distributor, whole different kettle of fish.

Rule of thumb, retail is 100% markup plus taxes, so whatever way you paint it, third party GW margin isn't healthy. Doubly so if discounted.

Actually, here you go (from last year). I lied: they get a slightly better than 40% discount. I guess my mental arithmetic isn't that good.



So anyways, what can I say. There are two well-stocked shops here that are happy with 15%, as long as they're getting the volume, which they get plenty of, because people go, "OMG great prices, BUY MOAR.". And a third shop discounts grudgingly discounts their stuff reasonably well (around 17-20%) simply to stay competitive. Anyone who tries to sell hobby stuff at 100% markup over cost (other than the GW store) goes out of business around here, because it's just too competitive.

So what's the sales tax on those RRPs?

Either way, if youre going to shift the goalposts to include volume then it changes the character of the conversation WRT GW, but in general it still means $100 spent on product with a better markup than GW I'd preferable for the retailer.

Those prices are not inclusive of tax. In US and Canada, taxes are added separately. Because we are arcane and crazy, every freakin' jurisdiction has its own tax here. In the USA, every *city* can have a different tax rate.

No goalposts, bud. Irrespective of the margin (which is > 40%) I'm just saying, our stores are happy here because volumes are high, and therefore willing to discount a lot (and more than when the volumes were lower). The big amount of markup and the big sale sticker gives people the illusion they're getting a great price, which leaves everyone with a smile. They're happy to discount GW stuff by all the way up to 25%-30% (or even a touch higher) because the total dollar value of the GW sales are such a big number. I mean, as a retailer, you're happier making $300 profit than $100 profit; what do you care what the actual sale is, right? It's only what you keep at the end of the day.

Not totally true because there *is* a cost of inventory, but on the bright side, it's not like any of this is getting any cheaper. Unlike, say computer parts

 Talys wrote:


No goalposts,

Of course there's goalposts, the current point was "GW don't offer good value to third party retailers" and then you turn around and say "actually, if you're a global mega corporation with a reach that extends to millions, you'd be quite happy with 0.02 on the dollar."

It's what you always do, subtly alter the criteria to try and make it look like that's what you meant all along.

As for the RRP?

Well, I'm not as familiar with North American taxes as I am UK, but what I do have is the address of friends who live in KS, and sufficient interest to run a mock sale through their site, and the RRP on offer on the site does include the tax (the price drops when you add it to cart, then goes back to the original once you give the delivery details.) So, as far as I can tell, those RRPs in the picture you linked do include tax, which would make the discount much closer to the 40% I believed was the maximum, and as you're the only person I've seen claim a higher level I'd say I've probably got the right of it.

?? Are we really nitpicking that much.

GW trade prices are between 65-55% of retail price (35-45% discount) depending on what level partner you are.

GW stuff makes a decentish margin, but isn't great for FLGS to sell because it requires enormous amounts of space to have anything approaching a viable volume where you can reliably make on-the-spot sales. Though this is a problem for most of the large established wargames - too many SKUs in big boxes. A retailer needs to factor in the amount of space a product line will take in to the margins that product is really making for them. Compare to M:TG, where you can make a thousand dollars of sales a day in the same space required for a single Dark Vengeance box.

The problem with so many special-order only stuff is that (personally), if I can't make an impulse purchase at my FLGS or GW, I'm not going to order it in through the FLGS: I'm going to buy it online, at a bigger discount, and get it delivered to my door. I'll pay the inconvenience cost of travelling to the FLGS once, but if the item isn't there then I'm not going to wait 2 weeks or a month and then make the trip again.

Trasvi wrote:
The problem with so many special-order only stuff is that (personally), if I can't make an impulse purchase at my FLGS or GW, I'm not going to order it in through the FLGS: I'm going to buy it online, at a bigger discount, and get it delivered to my door. I'll pay the inconvenience cost of travelling to the FLGS once, but if the item isn't there then I'm not going to wait 2 weeks or a month and then make the trip again.

Exactly. Unless you're in the habit of making regular trips to your local store anyway, there is absolutely no incentive to order through them rather than just doing it yourself.

'Not having what your customer wants on the shelf when they want it is bad' is, and always has been, one of the absolute rules of retail. A business that relies on being able to order what customers ask for is losing sales... because a lot of potential customers just won't ask.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Of course there's goalposts, the current point was "GW don't offer good value to third party retailers" and then you turn around and say "actually, if you're a global mega corporation with a reach that extends to millions, you'd be quite happy with 0.02 on the dollar."

It's what you always do, subtly alter the criteria to try and make it look like that's what you meant all along.

The original conversation had nothing to do with that. I asked: I don't understand why a GW independent store would feel that it was not worthwhile to make a web order for a customer. There aren't any "goal posts", because I wasn't trying to debate or prove anything. I laid out a web-only perspective of several options to me (as a customer) and in every case, it's preferable to the customer to buy from the independent. You get it quicker, and maybe you get it cheaper. And the store gets to make some more money, for something that takes a few mouse clicks.

We got sidetracked into a separate conversation from there about why anyone would want to carry GW, or some such. And then I was called out for overestimating profit margins on GW products (by you, too, for being naïve, LOL). So I gave you a photo of a trade pricing book to prove GW margins. I'm really not nuts; those are the prices. They make more than 40% if they choose to sell product undiscounted.

Because GW products have a very high selling price, **in my area** the high selling price has resulted in those stores giving decent discounts; it's possible because stores care more about the bottom line (dollars earned) than margin percentages. I know that Frontline Gaming and DarkSphere also discount 25%, too -- for their own reasons, which I don't know.

Take it or leave it; everything there is factual, so there aren't any "goalposts" to move. I don't need to "prove" anything, because there really isn't anything to debate.

 Azreal13 wrote:
As for the RRP?

Well, I'm not as familiar with North American taxes as I am UK, but what I do have is the address of friends who live in KS, and sufficient interest to run a mock sale through their site, and the RRP on offer on the site does include the tax (the price drops when you add it to cart, then goes back to the original once you give the delivery details.) So, as far as I can tell, those RRPs in the picture you linked do include tax, which would make the discount much closer to the 40% I believed was the maximum, and as you're the only person I've seen claim a higher level I'd say I've probably got the right of it.

In North America, with a small number of exceptions, taxes are added to all advertised prices at the point of sale. Just go to Forgeworld or GW, pick a region, add it to the cart, check out, and you'll see. As you change the province they're shipping to, the tax changes. For some taxes, retailers are charged by distributors the tax, the distributors charge customers the tax, and the distributors remit the difference. For other taxes, retailers are NOT charged by the distributor, but collect it from the customer, and remit it to the government. Sometimes, the retailer may even collect a commission for collecting the tax (and it can add up to thousands of dollars a year)!

In Canada, some jurisdictions use a single tax, while others have a regional and a federal tax. In the United States, there is the possibility of state taxes as well as city taxes. So within the state of Oregon, for example, there is no state tax, and if you live in Portland, you pay zero sales tax; but in another city, you might pay some sales tax.

In addition, in North America, many online retailers don't have to collect or remit taxes (if they don't sell enough stuff, for example, less than $50,000 in a jurisdiction per year). For this reason, many Canadians will buy things online, have it sent to a neighbouring state, and pick it up. They pay no tax, and upon declaration crossing the border, Canada doesn't care enough to get you to fill out the paperwork to collect a tiny bit of tax. As a real example, if you buy a F.A.T. mat and a box of Sigmarites from FLG and send it to Blaine, Washington, you could then drive 15 minutes across the border from Canada, pick it up, declare it legally (show the border the guy the receipt), and pay zero tax.

There is an entire industry of companies that receive goods for people to take advantage of this mechanic, for everything from Warhammer miniatures to computers to patio sets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:
GW stuff makes a decentish margin, but isn't great for FLGS to sell because it requires enormous amounts of space to have anything approaching a viable volume where you can reliably make on-the-spot sales. Though this is a problem for most of the large established wargames - too many SKUs in big boxes. A retailer needs to factor in the amount of space a product line will take in to the margins that product is really making for them. Compare to M:TG, where you can make a thousand dollars of sales a day in the same space required for a single Dark Vengeance box.

Well, you could argue that PP is much worse. It takes up just as much shelf space as 40k -- more for some stores, because of the large number of blisters -- and there's no denying that WMH moves fewer dollars than 40k, generally speaking (ie, some stores of course will sell more PP).

I don't know about you, but for me, part of the magic of going to a hobby shop or gaming store is being able to spend an hour or longer just browsing shelves. It sometimes leads to those impulse buys -- games, models, miniatures that I otherwise may never have considered. Even within collections I already own completely, I usually browse the shelf, and you never know, I may just think, "hey, wouldn't it be cool to have another...". And again, this may simply be regional, but if you live somewhere with a store with DarkSphere/FLG type discounts, it's just cheaper anyhow. Like, no shipping, no minimum order, and you can buy the stuff and take it with you. If they don't have it, usually, they can just order it for you, usually reasonably expeditiously. At a discount! There's just no downside.

But whatever, I get that some people prefer shopping online

IMO, the key to success in a brick and mortar gaming store is to have a lot of stock, even weird stuff that doesn't move quickly, and to know what to discount and what to price high. A lot of things like airbrushes, drill presses, compressors and premium brushes you can jack the price up way high, and people will still buy them. Then, staff with marginal knowledge helps, and all you need past that is a few gaming tables and some trusted people if you're going to allow people to play through the wee hours.

 Talys wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
GW stuff makes a decentish margin, but isn't great for FLGS to sell because it requires enormous amounts of space to have anything approaching a viable volume where you can reliably make on-the-spot sales. Though this is a problem for most of the large established wargames - too many SKUs in big boxes. A retailer needs to factor in the amount of space a product line will take in to the margins that product is really making for them. Compare to M:TG, where you can make a thousand dollars of sales a day in the same space required for a single Dark Vengeance box.

Well, you could argue that PP is much worse. It takes up just as much shelf space as 40k -- more for some stores, because of the large number of blisters -- and there's no denying that WMH moves fewer dollars than 40k, generally speaking (ie, some stores of course will sell more PP).

I don't know about you, but for me, part of the magic of going to a hobby shop or gaming store is being able to spend an hour or longer just browsing shelves. It sometimes leads to those impulse buys -- games, models, miniatures that I otherwise may never have considered. Even within collections I already own completely, I usually browse the shelf, and you never know, I may just think, "hey, wouldn't it be cool to have another...". And again, this may simply be regional, but if you live somewhere with a store with DarkSphere/FLG type discounts, it's just cheaper anyhow. Like, no shipping, no minimum order, and you can buy the stuff and take it with you. If they don't have it, usually, they can just order it for you, usually reasonably expeditiously. At a discount! There's just no downside.

But whatever, I get that some people prefer shopping online

IMO, the key to success in a brick and mortar gaming store is to have a lot of stock, even weird stuff that doesn't move quickly, and to know what to discount and what to price high. A lot of things like airbrushes, drill presses, compressors and premium brushes you can jack the price up way high, and people will still buy them. Then, staff with marginal knowledge helps, and all you need past that is a few gaming tables and some trusted people if you're going to allow people to play through the wee hours.

I'm not arguing in favour of any particular Wargame - just that it is a downside of having a product with
a) a very large number of SKUs
b) discerning customers where one SKU isn't able to be substituted for another
c) relatively space consuming
d) different sides of the customer base interested in completely different parts of the product line.

Eg, new customers to a wargame want the basics. The rulebook, the 2-player starter box, the core paint set, the army starter box and the most common troops choice. That kind of thing. Your veteran players want very specific, very diverse things - a character with very specific armament, a particular box of elites - which can't be swapped out for something else: pGrissel and Champions are not eGrissel and Warders, or Shadowsun is not Farsight. Again, thats ALL wargames - GW and PP being the big players, but all the smaller ones suffer the same thing.

The reason GW is getting brought in to this is that their Web Only / Direct Only policies directly inhibit the idea of 'just order it at the store'. It hinders savvy staff from being able to order in what they know will sell well. It increases the turn around time (increasing inconvenience, reducing sales) of being able to order in store. It reduces incentive for staff to order in store (direct-only items have lower margins).

So I will go to my FLGS and look around at all the cool stuff. But if the item isn't in stock that day, I'm not going to see how cool it is and impulse purchase it; and if I was looking specifically for that item, ordering online is easier, quicker and cheaper for me than making another trip down to the store in 3 weeks when my stuff arrives.

To their credit, the huge range of skus is something that GW have been slowly addressing as more and more boxes move over to being dual (or more) kits. The danger there is that the dual kits have often come with a price increase, making the bozes less attractive as a purchase.

And there's still a long way to go there... There's really no good reason, for example, to have a Rhino available by itself. It should be a dual kit with the Razorback, or better yet just have a single box that includes parts to build any of the various Rhino-chassis vehicles. Likewise with Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders.

Similarly, a lot of the various armies' character options could be catered for with a character box with one or two bodies and a swarm of optional parts, allowing you to just have the one box on the shelf rather than a bunch of blisters.

If it were up to me, I'd be looking at every way possible to combine kits and get that product range as condensed as it can go, to make stocking the whole range more viable for every store.

I think one of the problems for retailers is the boxes that GW decided are 'core' boxes that every store needs to have on their shelf, and how GW decide what goes on that list. I don't think the problem is so bad on the 40k side but for fantasy core troops like High elf archers went direct only, but for Vampire Counts zombies, ghouls, skeletons, wolves, the corpse cart, the morits engine, the terrorgiest and so many other products were made mandatory.
Why? Because the list was updated just as the vampires where updated and they were what was selling.

If GW aren't able to look at that an see where they are going wrong I worry for the people having to stock these mandatory products.



Also just throwing it out there but some of the LotR line was mandatory to carry for a while, as was a lot of the first wave Hobbit stuff before something happened and it disappeared from stores, and even now stores that don't want to carry fantasy have to in order to carry 40k.

I used to feel bad for the indies stocking gw. But at this stage of the game, if they don't know what they're in for then there's something fishy going on. I remember my old (closed now) flgs: the guy was explaining to me how he had to order LotR boxes to maintain his margins. Only, he never sold any of his LotR stuff and it was obvious he never would. It cost money to buy and was dead weight before it even arrived. C'est la vie.

 Torga_DW wrote:
I used to feel bad for the indies stocking gw. But at this stage of the game, if they don't know what they're in for then there's something fishy going on. I remember my old (closed now) flgs: the guy was explaining to me how he had to order LotR boxes to maintain his margins. Only, he never sold any of his LotR stuff and it was obvious he never would. It cost money to buy and was dead weight before it even arrived. C'est la vie.

But potentially worthwhile if he made enough from the Margins.

I'd heard stories of at least one fairly ruthless reseller buying into an upper discount tier and them dumping the extras on eBay at cost. It really annoyed the small boys. One of the FLGS's up here has pretty regular 50% clearance sales as well for what I suspect is the same reason - keeping the margins up.

Mind you; that's what they do with cars as well.

there's nothing in this article or any of the comments that changes my mind.

i still think that GW aren't as in the gak as most of you lot think. But they're nowhere near as safe as they think they are.

Herzlos wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
I used to feel bad for the indies stocking gw. But at this stage of the game, if they don't know what they're in for then there's something fishy going on. I remember my old (closed now) flgs: the guy was explaining to me how he had to order LotR boxes to maintain his margins. Only, he never sold any of his LotR stuff and it was obvious he never would. It cost money to buy and was dead weight before it even arrived. C'est la vie.

But potentially worthwhile if he made enough from the Margins.

I'd heard stories of at least one fairly ruthless reseller buying into an upper discount tier and them dumping the extras on eBay at cost. It really annoyed the small boys. One of the FLGS's up here has pretty regular 50% clearance sales as well for what I suspect is the same reason - keeping the margins up.

Mind you; that's what they do with cars as well.

Yeah, but apparently it wasn't. Maybe he should have looked into that ebay thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daddyorchips wrote:
there's nothing in this article or any of the comments that changes my mind.

i still think that GW aren't as in the gak as most of you lot think. But they're nowhere near as safe as they think they are.

That's actually where most of us sit. They're headed down but they're not in 'trouble' just yet. Having said that, it's commonsense that if they continuously lose revenue there's a problem. It reminds me of that quote about the how did you lose the business? gradually then quickly thing. I'm waiting to see when the quickly part happens, what decision could be the turning point.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I think one of the problems for retailers is the boxes that GW decided are 'core' boxes that every store needs to have on their shelf, and how GW decide what goes on that list. I don't think the problem is so bad on the 40k side but for fantasy core troops like High elf archers went direct only, but for Vampire Counts zombies, ghouls, skeletons, wolves, the corpse cart, the morits engine, the terrorgiest and so many other products were made mandatory.
Why? Because the list was updated just as the vampires where updated and they were what was selling.

If GW aren't able to look at that an see where they are going wrong I worry for the people having to stock these mandatory products.

Also just throwing it out there but some of the LotR line was mandatory to carry for a while, as was a lot of the first wave Hobbit stuff before something happened and it disappeared from stores, and even now stores that don't want to carry fantasy have to in order to carry 40k.

I think part it kinda goes to what your talking about but GW has the mindset that a sale to a FLGS is a sale made even if it sits on the shelf forever. The shift to exclusive online sales give GW higher margins; maybe that means some kits that might not sell at high enough volumes can still be profitable but it also promotes moving whatever they know will sell online no matter what to their store.

Personally GWs push to online sales is why I could never find certain Dark Eldar kits and ultimately decided against building an army for them.