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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 04:49:48
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Does the Ork Wreckin'Ball count as a weapon for the pupose of weapon destroyed results on the vehicle damage chart.
Thanks
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 04:50:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 05:06:02
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
Toronto (GTA), Ontario
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One side would be yes, just like a Dred CC wep can be destroyed, so can the wreckin ball. The other side would be no, It's just an upgrade for the vehicle, not a weapon upgrade. I'm not sure which it would be but I'm aiming towards no because that's how most people play it or atleast I do.
Orkishly
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Dracos wrote:Codex does not override rulebook. Specific rules (generally those found in codex tend to be more specific) override general rules in case of conflict.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 05:34:19
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Waaagh! Warbiker
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No, a Wrecking Ball is no more a Weapon than Armour Plates or Boarding Planks
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 05:52:23
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Killer Klaivex
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That's a poor example. If I hit you with a boarding plank, you'd say it was a weapon, wouldn't you?
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 08:03:40
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Stormin' Stompa
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And Cheese Elemental strikes again with yet another stupid post.
OT, I'd say no. On the other hand, an unfired HK missile definetly do count as a weapon (lets leave the discussion about fired ones for another thread), so.... I don't really know.
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"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 14:55:09
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I ask because it has the ability to cause a "...strength 9 hit upon one unengaged enemy unit...". How would this be different than say adding an additional close combat weapon to a defiler or the above mentioned HK missle? I would view it as a weapon, but I have been mistaken before.
Thanks for the info so far.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:07:08
Subject: Re:Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As much as I'd like to say, "Yes." I believe the answer is also no. I agree with orkishlyorkis and Waaaaaaagh!.
Just knowing how GW arranges their rules, its listed as a vehicle upgrade and not under weapons, therefore...
Besides, most I know don't count it as one either. Hope this helps.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/28 15:09:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:19:39
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It meets the requirements of a weapon - it has a Strength value and a way to inflict a hit on an enemy unit. It's as much a weapon upgrade as an HK, which I think is also listed as a Vehicle Upgrade, not a Weapon Upgrade.
I haven't seen it played as a Weapon, but I think it is.
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:21:02
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)
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And Cheese Elemental strikes again with yet another stupid post.
^ Winning post!
The wrecking ball is not a weapon, it is simply an upgrade on a vehicle.
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Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:25:49
Subject: Re:Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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GoFenris wrote:Just knowing how GW arranges their rules, its listed as a vehicle upgrade and not under weapons, therefore...
In both the new SM and IG codex, vehicle options are listed in a "Vehicle Armory" including the HK missle and all the traditionally thought of weapons such as autocannons and hurricane bolters. I think we all agree that those are still considered weapons regardless of their listing under "Vehicle Armory". Could it be a case of older codex vs. new?
If the Wreckin Ball can be destoyed by a "Weapon Detroyed" result on the damage table then it must be a weapon, right?
To get to the meat of this question, I want to know if the ball is a weapon so that I may remove it to stop the first weapon destroyed result from immobilizing a Battlewagon without big shoota upgrades.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:29:50
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)
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this is the ork dex though, not IG or marines.
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Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:41:05
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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If an unfired HK missile counts as a weapon for Weapon Destoryed results, how does a Wrecking Ball not count as one? Both are vehicle upgrades. Both have a Str value, both have a fixed roll to inflict a hit, both have a range.
Can a BW move at Cruising Speed and use a Wrecking Ball?
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:55:09
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)
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not only that, but im starting to be swayed quite a bit now.
also, for anyone who says that the ball is in the upgrade section rather than weapon section, so is the killkannon, which is a weapon
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Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 15:55:20
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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JD21290 wrote:this is the ork dex though, not IG or marines.
My response was in answer to the post quoted regarding the location of the listing in the 'dex itself and "how GW arranges their rules". The new codexes do not distinguish vehicle weapons from vehicle upgrades. I proposed that the Ork book was a case of old vs. new version.
Maybe a better example would be from the Black Templar codex that contains the same "Vehicle Upgrades" section. In this section is a listing for both the HK and the pintle mounted stormbolter. These are clearly viewed as weapons (the pintle mounted even says so in its description), but are listed as upgrades. The stance that the wreckin ball is as an upgrade and not a weapon simply because of its location under a header is questionable because of this.
What makes a weapon a weapon? Is it that the item has a strength value, a roll ro hit is required, a maximum range is determined, it can cause damage? The Wreckin' Ball meets all of these requirements.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 16:11:26
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Ok, then if the Wrekin' Ball is a weapon, what about the Deffrolla? Is it an upgraded Ram, so to speak, or is it a weapon?
It seems to me that one cannot be a weapon, without them both being counted as weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 16:15:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 16:12:33
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Stalwart Tribune
Olympus Mons
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A maximum range isn't reqired, or the seeker missile wouldn't be a weapon, a roll to hit isn't reqired or a flamer wouldn't be a weapon, causing damage isn't reqired or a marklight wouldn't be a weapon, & a strength value isn't reqired or a sniper rifle wouldn't be a weapon.
Uh oh.
I'd still call a Wreckin' Ball a weapon, give the ork player the benefit of the doubt.
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2500 1000
Mechanicum Fleet 2000 1000
2000? (Almost all 2nd ed.)
I think that about covers it. For now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 16:15:27
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)
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A maximum range isn't reqired, or the seeker missile wouldn't be a weapon, a roll to hit isn't reqired or a flamer wouldn't be a weapon, causing damage isn't reqired or a marklight wouldn't be a weapon, & a strength value isn't reqired or a sniper rifle wouldn't be a weapon.
great post
i think thats just ruined all arguments so far lol
never actually though about that until you posted.
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Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 16:19:24
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Most I've encountered play it "no".
If you allow wreckin balls to be weapons for this purpose, then you get into the situation of classifying EVERYTHING added to a vehicle for this purpose. If I can knock off a wreckin ball, what about a grabbin klaw? Deff Rolla? Tau Flechette Launchers?
I'd be inclined to go with Ranged Weapons for the purposes of Non-Walker vehicles but that's just an preference and opinion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 16:30:09
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes it is a weapon and can be removed with a weapon destroyed result.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 16:33:45
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Waaagh! Warbiker
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DarthDiggler wrote:Yes it is a weapon and can be removed with a weapon destroyed result.
Prove it
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 16:39:17
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mars.Techpriest wrote:A maximum range isn't reqired, or the seeker missile wouldn't be a weapon, a roll to hit isn't reqired or a flamer wouldn't be a weapon, causing damage isn't reqired or a marklight wouldn't be a weapon, & a strength value isn't reqired or a sniper rifle wouldn't be a weapon.
I thought Seeker missiles had Range: Unlimited.
And while a Flamer doesn't require a roll to it, it does use a template, and it's defined that all models fully or partially under the template are Hit.
Based on the requirements for Going to Ground, a Markerlight is not a weapon. It doesn't cause any damage, so you can't take a Cover Save against it. But, it's a weird one, because you do use ballistic skill to determine if you Hit the target.
A sniper rifle is a poisoned weapon, which wound regardless of Toughness, on a fixed roll.
I've never seen a Wrecking Ball used for a 'weapon destoryed' result, but I think it would qualify. Again, if an unfired Hunter-Killer missle qualifies, I don't see anything that separates it from a Wrecking Ball.
I would say that a Deff Rolla doesn't count since it only does damage when it Tank Shocks a unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 16:39:59
In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 17:22:53
Subject: Re:Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Proud Phantom Titan
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Come on people read the BGB
3 Damage - Weapon Destroyed
Oneof the vehicle's weapons (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed - ripped off by the force of the attack. If a vehicle has no weapon left, treat this result as an 'immobilised' result instead. This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles.
Does the Deff Rolla and Wreckin' Ball function as a weapon? Yes since they do damage, they are functioning as weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 17:31:46
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Waaaaaaagh! wrote:DarthDiggler wrote:Yes it is a weapon and can be removed with a weapon destroyed result.
Prove it
Come on people read the BGB
3 Damage - Weapon Destroyed
Oneof the vehicle's weapons (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed - ripped off by the force of the attack. If a vehicle has no weapon left, treat this result as an 'immobilised' result instead. This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles.
Does the Deff Rolla and Wreckin' Ball function as a weapon? Yes since they do damage, they are functioning as weapons.
******Done*********
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 17:33:33
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)
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Well, thats case closed
never really had that come up in a game before, but now i guess rolla-wagons need to throw on more junk to stop that rolla comming off :(
however, it also helps quite a bit
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Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 17:36:28
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Enginseer with a Wrench
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I would say that the Deffrolla, given that it only adds a damage component to a specific type of movement, would not be considered a weapon. Since the Wrecking Ball is utilized as a separate attack during the Assault Phase (correct me if I am wrong about that bit, as I do not have my codex for exact wording), it would be considered a weapon.
I think that turn phase is important in this discussion. Weapons are used in the Shooting and Assault phases to cause damage by an action specific to that object, whether it be a listed weapon or a vehicle upgrade. Something that augments a Movement action (i.e. Tank Shock) couldn't be considered a weapon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 17:41:19
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)
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So working on this basis (of it does damage, its a weapon) does that mean things such as reinforced ram (which helps with ramming ..... durrr!) is now classed as a weapon too?
ramming does damage.
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Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 17:43:07
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Waaagh! Warbiker
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A Ranged Weapon by definition must have a full profile. That is, a Strength, an AP, a Type and a Range. A Close Combat weapon must be specificaly Designated as such. Deff rollas and Wrecking Balls do not have these, whereas a HK missile does. That is why HK Missiles count and Wrecking Balls do not.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 17:43:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 17:44:00
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy
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I was reading down the thread just waiting for someone to say that
I just wish the BGB would be a bit more clear. The 2 examples it gives in that rule are very clearly weapons to begin with.
Does a wrecking ball function as a weapon ~yes~? but does it function as a weapon in as clean-cut a way as a stormbolter? Not by any means imaginable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 18:13:42
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Waaaaaaagh! wrote:A Ranged Weapon by definition must have a full profile. That is, a Strength, an AP, a Type and a Range. A Close Combat weapon must be specificaly Designated as such. Deff rollas and Wrecking Balls do not have these, whereas a HK missile does.
That is why HK Missiles count and Wrecking Balls do not.
Works for me. Another nail in the coffin is that the Wrecking Ball is clearly not a defensive weapon, yet it doesn't count as a 'weapon' for determining how many weapons a vehicle can fire. Same with the Deff Rolla. And since the BW doesn't have a WS profile, it can't be locked in Assault, and it can't be a CCW.
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/05/28 18:15:03
Subject: Does an Ork Wreckin' Ball count as a weapon?
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Enginseer with a Wrench
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dietrich wrote:Waaaaaaagh! wrote:A Ranged Weapon by definition must have a full profile. That is, a Strength, an AP, a Type and a Range. A Close Combat weapon must be specificaly Designated as such. Deff rollas and Wrecking Balls do not have these, whereas a HK missile does.
That is why HK Missiles count and Wrecking Balls do not.
Works for me. Another nail in the coffin is that the Wrecking Ball is clearly not a defensive weapon, yet it doesn't count as a 'weapon' for determining how many weapons a vehicle can fire. Same with the Deff Rolla. And since the BW doesn't have a WS profile, it can't be locked in Assault, and it can't be a CCW.
Oooh. Both very good points.
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