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Does the Ork Wreckin'Ball count as a weapon for the pupose of weapon destroyed results on the vehicle damage chart.

Thanks

One side would be yes, just like a Dred CC wep can be destroyed, so can the wreckin ball. The other side would be no, It's just an upgrade for the vehicle, not a weapon upgrade. I'm not sure which it would be but I'm aiming towards no because that's how most people play it or atleast I do.




Orkishly

No, a Wrecking Ball is no more a Weapon than Armour Plates or Boarding Planks

That's a poor example. If I hit you with a boarding plank, you'd say it was a weapon, wouldn't you?

And Cheese Elemental strikes again with yet another stupid post.

OT, I'd say no. On the other hand, an unfired HK missile definetly do count as a weapon (lets leave the discussion about fired ones for another thread), so.... I don't really know.

I ask because it has the ability to cause a "...strength 9 hit upon one unengaged enemy unit...". How would this be different than say adding an additional close combat weapon to a defiler or the above mentioned HK missle? I would view it as a weapon, but I have been mistaken before.

Thanks for the info so far.

As much as I'd like to say, "Yes." I believe the answer is also no. I agree with orkishlyorkis and Waaaaaaagh!.

Just knowing how GW arranges their rules, its listed as a vehicle upgrade and not under weapons, therefore...

Besides, most I know don't count it as one either. Hope this helps.

It meets the requirements of a weapon - it has a Strength value and a way to inflict a hit on an enemy unit. It's as much a weapon upgrade as an HK, which I think is also listed as a Vehicle Upgrade, not a Weapon Upgrade.

I haven't seen it played as a Weapon, but I think it is.

And Cheese Elemental strikes again with yet another stupid post.

^ Winning post!



The wrecking ball is not a weapon, it is simply an upgrade on a vehicle.

GoFenris wrote:Just knowing how GW arranges their rules, its listed as a vehicle upgrade and not under weapons, therefore...

In both the new SM and IG codex, vehicle options are listed in a "Vehicle Armory" including the HK missle and all the traditionally thought of weapons such as autocannons and hurricane bolters. I think we all agree that those are still considered weapons regardless of their listing under "Vehicle Armory". Could it be a case of older codex vs. new?

If the Wreckin Ball can be destoyed by a "Weapon Detroyed" result on the damage table then it must be a weapon, right?

To get to the meat of this question, I want to know if the ball is a weapon so that I may remove it to stop the first weapon destroyed result from immobilizing a Battlewagon without big shoota upgrades.

this is the ork dex though, not IG or marines.

If an unfired HK missile counts as a weapon for Weapon Destoryed results, how does a Wrecking Ball not count as one? Both are vehicle upgrades. Both have a Str value, both have a fixed roll to inflict a hit, both have a range.

Can a BW move at Cruising Speed and use a Wrecking Ball?

not only that, but im starting to be swayed quite a bit now.


also, for anyone who says that the ball is in the upgrade section rather than weapon section, so is the killkannon, which is a weapon

JD21290 wrote:this is the ork dex though, not IG or marines.

My response was in answer to the post quoted regarding the location of the listing in the 'dex itself and "how GW arranges their rules". The new codexes do not distinguish vehicle weapons from vehicle upgrades. I proposed that the Ork book was a case of old vs. new version.

Maybe a better example would be from the Black Templar codex that contains the same "Vehicle Upgrades" section. In this section is a listing for both the HK and the pintle mounted stormbolter. These are clearly viewed as weapons (the pintle mounted even says so in its description), but are listed as upgrades. The stance that the wreckin ball is as an upgrade and not a weapon simply because of its location under a header is questionable because of this.

What makes a weapon a weapon? Is it that the item has a strength value, a roll ro hit is required, a maximum range is determined, it can cause damage? The Wreckin' Ball meets all of these requirements.

Ok, then if the Wrekin' Ball is a weapon, what about the Deffrolla? Is it an upgraded Ram, so to speak, or is it a weapon?

It seems to me that one cannot be a weapon, without them both being counted as weapons.

A maximum range isn't reqired, or the seeker missile wouldn't be a weapon, a roll to hit isn't reqired or a flamer wouldn't be a weapon, causing damage isn't reqired or a marklight wouldn't be a weapon, & a strength value isn't reqired or a sniper rifle wouldn't be a weapon.

Uh oh.

I'd still call a Wreckin' Ball a weapon, give the ork player the benefit of the doubt.

A maximum range isn't reqired, or the seeker missile wouldn't be a weapon, a roll to hit isn't reqired or a flamer wouldn't be a weapon, causing damage isn't reqired or a marklight wouldn't be a weapon, & a strength value isn't reqired or a sniper rifle wouldn't be a weapon.

great post
i think thats just ruined all arguments so far lol
never actually though about that until you posted.

Most I've encountered play it "no".

If you allow wreckin balls to be weapons for this purpose, then you get into the situation of classifying EVERYTHING added to a vehicle for this purpose. If I can knock off a wreckin ball, what about a grabbin klaw? Deff Rolla? Tau Flechette Launchers?

I'd be inclined to go with Ranged Weapons for the purposes of Non-Walker vehicles but that's just an preference and opinion.

Yes it is a weapon and can be removed with a weapon destroyed result.

DarthDiggler wrote:Yes it is a weapon and can be removed with a weapon destroyed result.

Prove it

Mars.Techpriest wrote:A maximum range isn't reqired, or the seeker missile wouldn't be a weapon, a roll to hit isn't reqired or a flamer wouldn't be a weapon, causing damage isn't reqired or a marklight wouldn't be a weapon, & a strength value isn't reqired or a sniper rifle wouldn't be a weapon.

I thought Seeker missiles had Range: Unlimited.

And while a Flamer doesn't require a roll to it, it does use a template, and it's defined that all models fully or partially under the template are Hit.

Based on the requirements for Going to Ground, a Markerlight is not a weapon. It doesn't cause any damage, so you can't take a Cover Save against it. But, it's a weird one, because you do use ballistic skill to determine if you Hit the target.

A sniper rifle is a poisoned weapon, which wound regardless of Toughness, on a fixed roll.

I've never seen a Wrecking Ball used for a 'weapon destoryed' result, but I think it would qualify. Again, if an unfired Hunter-Killer missle qualifies, I don't see anything that separates it from a Wrecking Ball.

I would say that a Deff Rolla doesn't count since it only does damage when it Tank Shocks a unit.

Come on people read the BGB

3 Damage - Weapon Destroyed
Oneof the vehicle's weapons (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed - ripped off by the force of the attack. If a vehicle has no weapon left, treat this result as an 'immobilised' result instead. This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles.

Does the Deff Rolla and Wreckin' Ball function as a weapon? Yes since they do damage, they are functioning as weapons.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:Yes it is a weapon and can be removed with a weapon destroyed result.

Prove it

Come on people read the BGB


3 Damage - Weapon Destroyed
Oneof the vehicle's weapons (chosen by the attacker) is destroyed - ripped off by the force of the attack. If a vehicle has no weapon left, treat this result as an 'immobilised' result instead. This can include vehicle upgrades that function as weapons, such as pintle-mounted storm bolters or hunter-killer missiles.



Does the Deff Rolla and Wreckin' Ball function as a weapon? Yes since they do damage, they are functioning as weapons.




******Done*********

Well, thats case closed


never really had that come up in a game before, but now i guess rolla-wagons need to throw on more junk to stop that rolla comming off :(
however, it also helps quite a bit

I would say that the Deffrolla, given that it only adds a damage component to a specific type of movement, would not be considered a weapon. Since the Wrecking Ball is utilized as a separate attack during the Assault Phase (correct me if I am wrong about that bit, as I do not have my codex for exact wording), it would be considered a weapon.

I think that turn phase is important in this discussion. Weapons are used in the Shooting and Assault phases to cause damage by an action specific to that object, whether it be a listed weapon or a vehicle upgrade. Something that augments a Movement action (i.e. Tank Shock) couldn't be considered a weapon.

So working on this basis (of it does damage, its a weapon) does that mean things such as reinforced ram (which helps with ramming ..... durrr!) is now classed as a weapon too?
ramming does damage.

A Ranged Weapon by definition must have a full profile. That is, a Strength, an AP, a Type and a Range. A Close Combat weapon must be specificaly Designated as such. Deff rollas and Wrecking Balls do not have these, whereas a HK missile does.

That is why HK Missiles count and Wrecking Balls do not.

I was reading down the thread just waiting for someone to say that
I just wish the BGB would be a bit more clear. The 2 examples it gives in that rule are very clearly weapons to begin with.
Does a wrecking ball function as a weapon ~yes~? but does it function as a weapon in as clean-cut a way as a stormbolter? Not by any means imaginable.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:A Ranged Weapon by definition must have a full profile. That is, a Strength, an AP, a Type and a Range. A Close Combat weapon must be specificaly Designated as such. Deff rollas and Wrecking Balls do not have these, whereas a HK missile does.

That is why HK Missiles count and Wrecking Balls do not.

Works for me. Another nail in the coffin is that the Wrecking Ball is clearly not a defensive weapon, yet it doesn't count as a 'weapon' for determining how many weapons a vehicle can fire. Same with the Deff Rolla. And since the BW doesn't have a WS profile, it can't be locked in Assault, and it can't be a CCW.

dietrich wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:A Ranged Weapon by definition must have a full profile. That is, a Strength, an AP, a Type and a Range. A Close Combat weapon must be specificaly Designated as such. Deff rollas and Wrecking Balls do not have these, whereas a HK missile does.

That is why HK Missiles count and Wrecking Balls do not.

Works for me. Another nail in the coffin is that the Wrecking Ball is clearly not a defensive weapon, yet it doesn't count as a 'weapon' for determining how many weapons a vehicle can fire. Same with the Deff Rolla. And since the BW doesn't have a WS profile, it can't be locked in Assault, and it can't be a CCW.

Oooh. Both very good points.