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Episode 33 is a massive episode that attempts to tackle a massive topic: An intro to miniature war games.

Up first the D6G team goes over hobby basics and how to get starting in hobby miniature war games. Later the hosts discuss Warhammer 40,000 5th edition, it's been out a year, how is it holding up to our initial impressions?

All that and our usual 'not too horrible' humor, with features such as:


- Rapid Fire
- The Hollywood Minute
- When Wives Attack
- The Score
- & More


Link to Episode:
http://thed6generation.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=489887

Please let us know what you think...

Part way through... and I just had to point out that the "Hammerhead Alert" had me cracking up at my desk here at work.

Very true, and perhaps the most critical advice to n00bs. I'm still routinely put off from 40K groups by Hammerheads. I'd never heard the term, but I completely agree. Well put Hollywood et al.

Tertius wrote:Part way through... and I just had to point out that the "Hammerhead Alert" had me cracking up at my desk here at work.

Very true, and perhaps the most critical advice to n00bs. I'm still routinely put off from 40K groups by Hammerheads. I'd never heard the term, but I completely agree. Well put Hollywood et al.

Sadly we can't claim credit for inventing the term. It comes originally from an old Dilbert comic strip character, "Hammerhead Bob".

Here are some samples:

Thanks for the nearly insulting sponsorship at the end on Craig's bit which apparently identifies me as a Terrier Gamer.

I suppose I should have taken the time to come up with different messages for each sponsorship I won for this episode; but eh... I'll do it again some other time and be more creative. It was a whim of the moment thing.

I am always hugely entertained by this podcast, often informed and only sometimes mystified. My wife and kids dread its fortnightly release, which finds me sitting at my painting table, cackling like a madman through the night (increasingly late through the night, as recent episodes develop a comfortable middle-aged spread).

But I am not often moved by it. I was this time. Raef's segment was very well told, very moving. Props to him. The more Russ and Craig rag him, the better he gets ;-)

Then the wives came on, changed up the pace and brought back the cackle. The D6 Gen really is the full package.

Sorry, J, Waaaghman, that really wasn't the intent. That was going to be the topic for over a week and a half, ever since a friend of ours did that exact thing in my example with the Uncharted Seas bit. No disparagement was intended, and in fact I applaud your tactical acumen and your single-minded committment and focus.

Just watch any number of commercials over the course of a day to see that MANY people, paid FAR more than I will ever make, think repitition is THE way to go when advertising. I say kudos, and don't sweat it, I thought it was a great idea.

And sorry, again, if you thought I was aiming a cheap shot at you.

See how I wouldn't let that go there? See how I did that?

Hi guys, great show as usual. Helping me get through exam study.

But something that came up in your 40k review makes me unsure you're using the wound allocation rules correctly.

The example you gave in the show said if you have three space marines wounded by 3 plasma shots and eight bolter shots, you could stack all the wounds onto one marine, and the other two could survive.

Though you can stack all 3 plasma onto one guy, because they're all the same type, their wounds get pooled together. So the pool of normal guys would take 3 plasma and all the bolter hits, killing them all.

On the other hand, if one had a special weapon, your case stands. But in this case, you'd lose the special weapon (potentially bad) or the other two guys and keep the weapon (also potentially bad).

It only really becomes a problem with things like deathwing where you have tough units with all different equipment. So the problem is less common, and I believe I've read that this isnt that big a deal, though I cant substantiate that.

Master-Terraformer wrote:Sorry, J, Waaaghman, that really wasn't the intent. That was going to be the topic for over a week and a half, ever since a friend of ours did that exact thing in my example with the Uncharted Seas bit. No disparagement was intended, and in fact I applaud your tactical acumen and your single-minded committment and focus.

Just watch any number of commercials over the course of a day to see that MANY people, paid FAR more than I will ever make, think repitition is THE way to go when advertising. I say kudos, and don't sweat it, I thought it was a great idea.

And sorry, again, if you thought I was aiming a cheap shot at you.

See how I wouldn't let that go there? See how I did that?

No big deal sir. I felt no "hate" as your show has none and got the joke out of it. Thought it was funny personally and didn't feel that you were taking a cheap shot at all. Part of the internet forum is the inability to intone sarcasm into a sentence as I meant to above. I love your guys show; I'd like to aspire to be as professional as you three on my own PodCast but have far to little willpower I think to truly drive myself that far. Perhaps one day; we'll see.

As for cheap shots by the way... Tsk, tsk... Misspelling commitment and repetition... English teacher...

Great show! You guys can gab about wargames for hours and make it interesting.

The 40K retrospective was fun and makes me want to get a game going soon. However, I really don't want to get sucked back into the codex grind...which you mentioned were excellent and helped gameplay...so I'm hoping you can get a quality game with armies from the core rules? (That's a question)

Also, it seems that absorbing the cost of these collecting games (Warhammer, 40K, Warmachine, etc) is a given when you talk about them. The only thing I'd challenge you in your reviews is to give some consideration to "bang for the buck" (or personal comparative (apples to apples...THIS is better) rankings) which is a considerable issue when you often end up investing hundreds of dollars for basic armies and components. You've convinced me that 5th edition 40K is a better game than 4th edition, but is it a better investment than Warmachine?

In your grading analogy I may roll a 5+ on both, but what if I can't buy both? If Consumer Reports magazine said that every car was one I should buy, how does that help ME when I can only afford one and have to chose which one that is? Even if you told me that you LOVE both Warmachine and 40K...but these are the comparative strengths and weaknesses of both...for example Warmachine has better rules but costs more and takes more time to play a game...that would help a lot in decisions your listeners make on which game components to personally invest in. (And if you're wrong who to blame! (j/k))

Meh, I KNOW that's not what you guys do, but yer killing us gaming grognards who go into PayPal shock with every cool new thing that comes along and happen to hear your podcasts. (We all need sponsors!)

I guess there are much worse problems to have.

Thanks for the shows!

Yeh you posted my voicemail and i loved the episode.

tesseract wrote:Also, it seems that absorbing the cost of these collecting games (Warhammer, 40K, Warmachine, etc) is a given when you talk about them. The only thing I'd challenge you in your reviews is to give some consideration to "bang for the buck" (or personal comparative (apples to apples...THIS is better) rankings) which is a considerable issue when you often end up investing hundreds of dollars for basic armies and components. You've convinced me that 5th edition 40K is a better game than 4th edition, but is it a better investment than Warmachine?

That is REALLY a tough question. We tried to avoid the religious war that can erupt from "Warmachine is cheaper than 40k... no it isn't...yes it is". Today most models of the same size and detail are ROUGHLY (within +/- 5%) the same price from company to company.

What IS clear is that games with lower model count requirements are almost always cheaper. Uncharted Seas, Warmachine, Hordes, Lord of the Rings, etc. allow players to build forces that are reasonably sized (i.e. commonly played point values) more affordably than the army scale games.
I wouldn't say that 40k/WHFB are bad values, just not as 'affordable' as a skirmish game. Sure paying $60 for a single model (the Valkyrie aircraft) that is less than 10% of your average army size is expensive. However $60 for a detailed sci-fi aircraft model with moving parts at that size and scale is a fair price.

My recommendation: Get your toes wet with a skirmish game. The only financial 'risk' here with any of these games really is that you might simply 'be disappointed' with the idea of a hobby game. If so, then no hobby game will help, and you'll not have spent too much. If you end up enjoying collecting, building and painting your skirmish game then you know you’re on to something. You may find that someday you want to try a larger model count game, and you know what your options are.

Great episode guys. Really enjoyed it from end to end. The he said/she said between Craig and Karen was priceless, though I have to side with Craig in the end (maybe it is a guy thing!).

Man up and learn from your mistakes Karen! Err Girl up, woman up? Hmm better stop while I'm behind.

Ok i just finished the episode ANd finaly someone read world war z< and i hope they make a movie it would be epic.

This army-scale/skirmish-scale game dichotomy is an interesting one. The release of WotR is the first time I have seen a gaming company pull off what seems a really, really obvious marketing ploy with any sort of success. That is produce two seperate (one army- one skirmish-) fully supported games for exactly the same models.

With WFB or 40k you have the choice of an army game or nothing (Necromunda and Mordheim, while you can use the same catalogue of models, you can't really use the exact same models in both armies very easily) With WM/Hordes you start and end with a skirmish game.

But with LotR you can start with a viable skrimish force, and also expand the exact same army up to an army-scale game. You fancy an army game tonight? No problem, play WotR. You haven't got the space or time for a large game tonight? No problem, just pick a couple of dozen models out of your collection and play LotR.... It gives gamers extra value for their collection, and greater longevity to their gaming career. Provided you enjoyed the background and models enough for the specific "system" to entice you in to begin with, it's an obvious solution!

So why haven't other companies (and GW before it) done this before? Given that it is the models, not the paper product, that they make most of their profits off, (in other words from the manufacturer's perspective, the paper product is really only a marketing tool for helping to sell the models) why do more companies not retail more rulesets to utilise the same model infrastructure? Why is it either/or and not both/and?

It beats me! Maybe I'm naive, but I would have thought that giving the customer as many reasons as possible to buy your models was sensible, within reasonable SKU constraints!

EDIT: I believe Urban Mammoth produce skirmish rules for Urban War and army-level rules for Metropolis for the same model set, so there is at least on sci-fi "scaleable" option available if you can get access to anyone selling those games. But UM are hardly a massive player in the market.

Didn't confrontation try to do that as well? I never played but I heard something about Confrontation for skirmish and then Ragnarok(?) for army size games.

You are stirring my memory banks, sir. Yes I believe they did. I stand corrected. Although I think they made a hash of it, so to that extent my comment about "not pulling it off" probably still stands.

That's a great point, Paul (and others). The concept of a skirmish version of your game as a starting point would seem to be a viable business model. You could argue, I guess, that GW also tried it with the Combat Patrol and 40K in 40 Minutes rules from the 4th edition rulebook. In fact, at Adepticon they still pay Combat Patrol as one of their official tournaments. But it was never a fully-supported game unto itself, so it wouldn't really be useful as a sort of 'gateway' option . . . heh heh heh.

Loved the podcast - I'm a big fan of skirmish games, and I was glad to hear the recommendation. I had considered getting into Uncharted Seas, but I'm holding off now. I would love to hear more skirmish games covered on the podcast.

I've got too many work and family commitments to build a force for an army-scale game. I do have a Flames of War force but I also find it tedious to be painting the same uniform pattern over and over again. With skirmish games, I can paint up many small forces that vary wildly in their look.

Another nice think about skirmish gaming are their campaign systems, in which characters gain experience (unless they die a horrible death). This summer at the local game store I've organized some skirmish campaigns of both AE-WWII and Legends of the Old West, and some of the models already have their own "personality" among the various players.

Another great podcast.

I usually listen to podcasts during my workout. Did I miss something about Warhammer 40K 5th edition in this one? I recall the discussion regarding approaching miniature games from the perspective of a board gamer. I cannot recall the segment on reviewing Wahammer 40K 5th edition.

Great show as ever.

Again I think the UK gamer has thing easier than yourselves. With many wargames clubs spread all over the UK we are not as reliant on games stores as the US seems to be. A newcomer to the hobby can visit such a club and will usually be able to borrow an army for a few games to see what game suits them.

inquisitor_bob wrote:Another great podcast.

I usually listen to podcasts during my workout. Did I miss something about Warhammer 40K 5th edition in this one? I recall the discussion regarding approaching miniature games from the perspective of a board gamer. I cannot recall the segment on reviewing Wahammer 40K 5th edition.

Somehow you missed it Bob! The second main segment of the show (the third hour... or was that the 4th hour?) is dedicated to WH40k discussion. It's after When Wives Attack.

You guys didn't mention the GW living rulebooks on the specialist games site. Those free rules are a good way to check out the hobby gaming concept without spending anything, and those are the same, professionally produced books that you can buy.

Wow, I guess I failed to download the entire segment. My copy ran out right after When Wives Attack.

I'll have to get another copy.

Thanks Russ.

inquisitor_bob wrote:Wow, I guess I failed to download the entire segment. My copy ran out right after When Wives Attack.

I'll have to get another copy.

Thanks Russ.

If you don't hear "Achievement Unlocked, you've made it to the end..." then something has indeed gone horribly wrong.

(Sometimes there are even some easter eggs AFTER the achievement unlocked bit)

LionElJohnson: Good point on the Living Rulebooks. We didn't bring up specialist games as they are a bit harder to get started with and find in your local store just because they aren't as main stream.

RussWakelin wrote:
(Sometimes there are even some easter eggs AFTER the achievement unlocked bit)

And usually they are really funny. *hint hint*

In reference to "Did you ever notice" I was thinking that rather than a Conversation Terrier could also be called a Conversation Necromancer, or Conversation Frankenstein, as he tries to raise dead conversations and animate them.

Oh and I have noticed this tendency in myself, although I have learned to let it go if the moment has passed, no matter how witty and clever the point I'd like to make is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Craig - almost EVERYONE hates their own spoken voice. There's probably a psychological study there somewhere.

Trickster wrote:In reference to "Did you ever notice" I was thinking that rather than a Conversation Terrier could also be called a Conversation Necromancer, or Conversation Frankenstein, as he tries to raise dead conversations and animate them.

I call it a "wife".

Vladigar wrote:
I call it a "wife".

With jokes like that one, something tells me you'll soon be calling it an "ex-wife."

Just a bit of friendly advice.

Good call on Spartan Games. I purchased all 4 of the original starter fleets (after your review) in the hopes of getting some friends into the game. It seems like every other day the game's rules are changing in weird ways.

The rules also have changes buried in their forums. It isn't just the FAQs.

I hope they get their act together. The original game is a lot of fun.

Maybe this is the problem with the new systems in the age of the internet. The feedback and desire for quick fixes never happened this quickly back in the old days.

As many militaries are discovering, and philosophers have known for ages, too much information can be a bad thing, and just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. Just because they CAN react instantly to their forum-fans' merest whim, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

I have great hopes for them, but right now, between their strange focus on a game system that just doesn't seem to have legs, and their slavish adherence to the slightest suggestion they receive on their forums, color me disappointed.

I'm hoping this is a learning experience and Firestorm: Armada is the ultimate beneficiary.

As for my voice, thanks for the kind words, but I could enumerate for you all the technical things I don't like about my voice.

Instead, though, I assume that since there hasn't been TOO much mockery, it's not quite as bad as fingernails on a chalkboard, and forget about it.

Most of the time.

Oh, and a) "I call it a wife" : Classic. And b) what Tertius said.