Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lets say you have a skimmer right up against the table edge. Lets say the base or the skimmer is entirely on the table. Does the full skimmer model need to be over the table? Or just the base?

There are no rules to say either way. Work it out pre game, cause you know, tight rulesets are for wimps.

P.S. Welcome to Dakka. Rule #1 is be Polite. Rule #0 is Gwar! is always right

Thanks for the welcome. And this is a rather important issue. I'm wondering how it works out in tournament environments. I want to hear people's opinions..

Because whether or not a Vendetta can fire all 3 lascannons on the turn it comes in is a big influence on whether or not I want to buy any. Does the base need to move onto the table when outflanking (less than 6 inches, good to go), or does the entire model (more than 6 inches, booo). Does the long tail count? The wingspan? Or just the hull? Or just the base?

As I said, there are NO RULES regarding this situation whatsoever. You must clear this up at whatever tournament you are going to.

The INAT FAQ (as much as it is worth) says you can hang off the edge of the table. As a large proportion of Tournaments use it (allegedly), that might or might not be helpful.

I looked over the book for myself, I see nothing that says models can't hang over the edge. I would say the base must be completely on the table just as any other model. Ask before you start the game just to be sure. I think your opponent would be hard pressed to find the answer in the IG codex or the main rule book.

Not a hard rule, but how I'd play it is check all movement from the base. Measure from the board edge, move the front of the base to 6" from the board edge.

Bog, careful about the question.

There is a difference in what is allowed coming onto the board from reserves, and once you are on the board.

When you set up, can the wing/hull/whatever hang outside of your deployment zone?

Q. Can models move off the table?
A. Not unless a rule or the mission being played
clearly specify that they can. All good wargamers
know that the edge of the table is the end of the
world!

That is about the only guidance we get. You can't have a model partially off table, the same as you can't have a model partially outside your deployment zone at the start. The problem with this though, is that if taken as an inflexible bit of RAW, some vehicles may never drive onto the table. Baneblades come to mind. They have a 6" maximum move, and are greater than 6" long.

Clearly, there is a problem with the existing RAW in this area. Decide with your opponent how you want to handle it for your game. The folks I normally play typically play it that if you have a legal way of moving fully on table, you must use it. A land raider, for example, can legally move the 7" minimum to be fully on the table, but then is bound by firing rules for a vehicle that moved at that speed. Same for any other vehicle longer than 6" that is capable of greater than a 6" move. If you have no legal way to get fully on the table in one turn(such as the baneblade), hang off table by the minimum you must, but you must move on fully as soon as possible. For vehicles already on table, no part of the model may be moved over the edge voluntarily.

Though I do agree with Kaaihn. If it is within the ability of the model to move onto the table, then it must; otherwise it will be rammed by rhinos awaiting deployment.

using this faulty logic, i will make a Base for a hammerhead that allows that tank to hang back 24 to 36 inches off the table

skimmers must be mounted on a flying base for the propose of LOS...

BUT... when it comes to tanks, nothing is done with base to base... it is all done to the model.

IE, a marine with a lascannon has range to the track guards on a IG tank, the lascannon can fire at it... now if that lascannon was targeting a kroot squad but only had range to the gun overhanging the base then it could not fire.

A heavy bolter on a russ has range from the end of its gun to a fire warrior squad then it may fire... if the fire warriors only have range measuring from the tip of their guns then they may not.

so no, a model can not "hang off" the edge of the board just because it doesn't say you cant do it....

Envy89 wrote:so no, a model can not "hang off" the edge of the board just because it doesn't say you cant do it....

Show me where it says you must be on the table at all times? Not implied, but ecplicitly stated.

As it is, there is nothing for or against it.

First of all, I don't understand your examples. Yes, I'm aware that infantry have stuff that overhangs the base. And it's correct that if you only have range to the tip of a kroot rifle then you can't fire, just like you can't fire at a vehicle if you only have the range to the tip of the battlecannon. You gotta reliably hit somewhere on its hull. And yes, you measure vehicle weapon range from the tip of the weapon. Look, I just don't understand what you're getting at here haha.

Oh, and slippery slope much?
"using this faulty logic, i will make a Base for a hammerhead that allows that tank to hang back 24 to 36 inches off the table"
You have to use the bases that the models are supplied with, or bases identical to those. You can't just "make a base".

What's the significance of the base here?

Aren't distances regarding skimmers usually measured from the hull?

Orkeosaurus wrote:Aren't distances regarding skimmers usually measured from the hull?

They are. All the base is used for is assault and to keep it falling over

In that case it would seem that whether or not the skimmer's base is on the table is irrelevant. Having half the hull of a hammerhead off the table would be no different from having the rear half of a predator off the table, no matter where the hammerhead's base is.

The tail of a valkyrie is another issue though, as that isn't part of the hull.

TheBog wrote:Oh, and slippery slope much?
"using this faulty logic, i will make a Base for a hammerhead that allows that tank to hang back 24 to 36 inches off the table"
You have to use the bases that the models are supplied with, or bases identical to those. You can't just "make a base".

the reason of the examples was to point out the importance of the tank itself...

and no probles there... i will use the base GW provided me with, just weight it down with enough to support the metal rod that holds the hammerhead off the table....

i really cant see how people can think a model can hang over the edge just because it dosent say you cant do it.... it also dosent say that you cant mount a russ flying through the air on a dragon, so lets do that... then the battle cannon will have LOS to EVERYTHING

EDIT: we will also mount it pointing down, then most shots will hit front armor of 14 AND no cover save unless your actualy in the cover... oooo if we mount it up around 50 inches up, then most all anti tank will not be able to hit it and it will still have free shots on most stuff.

Oooh, Drama I am not causing!

This will be fun!

*Grabs Popcorn*

On Topic: I officially go on record as stating there are no rules to cover this, and the INAT FAQ is your best bet for a solution.

There is a faq that covers it. Can models move off the table? No, they can't. If part of your model is over the edge, that model has moved off table, which is not allowed.

When you are given a boundary, you are not allowed to move any part of the model outside of it. This is why you cannot deploy with any part of a model, even just a gun, sticking over your deployment line.

As I said in my last post, the RAW of this breaks down for certain models. House rule how to handle the ones that are actually broken. Valkyries and Land Raiders, for example, are not broken. They can move over 6" to be fully on the table.

Gwar! wrote:Oooh, Drama I am not causing!

This will be fun!

*Grabs Popcorn*

On Topic: I officially go on record as stating there are no rules to cover this, and the INAT FAQ is your best bet for a solution.

well now i have to include you Gwar...

will you also go on record as saying that there are no rules to cover a russ mounted on a dragon flying 50 inches above the table? and that since there are no rules covering this it is ok to do so?

because that is exactly what you are doing in regards to the topic... there are no rules that say you cant do it, so its ok.

Kaaihn, you misunderstand, this is not about moving off the table. You cannot move off the table if you started off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Envy89 wrote:will you also go on record as saying that there are no rules to cover a russ mounted on a dragon flying 50 inches above the table?

The ones that say you cannot change a models base. To model a russ flying, you need a base, therefore it is your opponents choice to allow it or not.

I love it when people take arguements to their illogical conclusions.

Im just surprised it isn't gwar this time!


On topic I cannot find any rules even touching on this subject, at all.

combo wrote:I love it when people take arguements to their illogical conclusions.

Me too!

combo wrote:Im just surprised it isn't gwar this time!

Me too! Hold me!

combo wrote:On topic I cannot find any rules even touching on this subject, at all.

Because, LE GASP, There aren't any!

Skimmers are only on the table when immobilized; the rest of the time they are, because of their base, "over the table".

shrug

Gwar! wrote:Kaaihn, you misunderstand, this is not about moving off the table. You cannot move off the table if you started off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Envy89 wrote:will you also go on record as saying that there are no rules to cover a russ mounted on a dragon flying 50 inches above the table?

The ones that say you cannot change a models base. To model a russ flying, you need a base, therefore it is your opponents choice to allow it or not.

hummm, ok.... ill just have the russ-dragon launching itself off of a rather tall rock. no base needed.

and we arnt talking about models that are starting off the table, that is fine... we are talking about models that are ON the table but want to MOVE part of it OFF the table.... the guy wants to keep the base of the skimmer on the table, but finish his movment with the ass end of the tank hanging OFF the table...

with the exception of mission OBJ's this can not be done.



and no, i dont think you can mount a russ on a flying dragon... just like i think you cant mount a hammerhead flying off the table.... taking it to an extream to get a fething point accross.

Envy89 wrote:and no, i dont think you can mount a russ on a flying dragon.

Yes, you can, I just have to Ok it. No-one will OK a Dragon Russ, nor will they let you model for advantage.

combo wrote:On topic I cannot find any rules even touching on this subject, at all.

because... sometimes GW thinks (i know... its odd) that people will use common sense.

Envy89 wrote:

combo wrote:On topic I cannot find any rules even touching on this subject, at all.

because... sometimes GW thinks (i know... its odd) that people will use common sense.

It is common sense for me to win on a 1+ because I have an Inquisitor.

See? Common Sense is not Common.

And this is a forum created for debating rules as written.

Common sense is only prejudice instilled upon you by the time you turn 9 years old.

Gwar! wrote:Kaaihn, you misunderstand, this is not about moving off the table. You cannot move off the table if you started off the table.

You moved. Your off the table at the end of your move. So, no.

The FAQ does not give any reference to where you started. It simply states you may not move off the table. Specific to the original poster, the action in question would be "Can you partially move onto the table, instead of fully if your vehicle is longer than six inches?"

You may not move off the table, and no part of your model may be in a place the model is not allowed (see deployment zones). That's clear to me where the RAW falls on this. Not to be forgotten though is the RAW fails on a select few models and needs a house rule to meet RAI.

The RAW does not fail on a Land Raider or a Valkyrie, they have the capability to move themselves fully on the table on their turn. Is it RAI that they are forced to shoot fewer weapons on the turn they come on the table? I have no idea. Email GW and ask them, and tailor your house rule based on their answer is my suggestion.

this is a forum for debating rules... not JUST raw, and not JUST rai

Q: can a model that is on the table move part of itself off the table if the mission makes no exception for this.

A:







now what Gwar has been saying is that there is no rule, so its ok....