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I'm trying to find a reason to include the Keeper of Secrets in a Daemons list, 'Ard Boyz or otherwise. Aside from thematic value in my (masochistic) all-slaaneshi lists, it suffers by comparison with the Bloodthirster, and doesn't offer enough value to replace Fateweaver, even with a cheaper point cost.

The 'thirster is more mobile (flying vs. Fleet), stronger (S8 vs S7), harder to hit (WS 10 vs WS 8), and more survivable (3+/4+ vs --/4+). While the Keeper wins in a straight up brawl between the two (more attacks, higher I), it's less effective against AV 14, multiwound T4 models, and the like.

Fateweaver is more mobile (flying vs Fleet), and is a useful ranged threat (BS 5 Bolt of Change & Daemonic Gaze). The force-multiplier aspects of his reroll is significant.

Does anyone use the Keeper for anything competitive?

Can I include planetstrike attacker?

If so, his fleet of foot will make the likelihood of a 'charge the turn you deepstrike' that much more favorable.

Back last year I experimented with a KoS and bloodthirster, trying to use pavane to increase the likelihood of a bloodthirster charge.

The game has changed a lot since then as far as what armies you are seeing. I don't think a KoS can compete against fateweaver or tzeentch heralds

A/D Grenades and Hit & Run to dodge tarpits (nurglings come to mind).
They're definitely second drop support, that work well with fast Heralds with icons.

The Keeper always hits first. It can fleet and cast pavane. It is a beast. Hssssssss!

It's not as good as a thirster (wings, S8/9, WS10), a GUO (W5, FNP) or even, in general, the Lord of Change.

About the only thing really in its favor is its relatively low cost. Aside from that, I'm just not impressed.

Now, Slaaneshii Daemon Princes, on the other hand...

What's special about a slaaneshi demon prince?

They're the perfect platform for Pavane.

They don't have fleet, so you're not really giving up anything to Pavane an enemy. Their cost (even with iron hide) is reasonable. They're not bad as a HS Choice.

I'll be taking one in my Ard Boyz army.

Nurgle princes are much better.

G

What is the best setup for a nurgle prince?

Iron hide, noxious touch, unholy might, wings, cloud of flies

Green Blow Fly wrote:Nurgle princes are much better.

G

Different roles.

Nurgle prince is the best front-liner, get up close and get mixed in kind of Daemon prince. IMNSHO, he pales in comparison to a Soul Grinder, but he's not bad (the T6 makes the difference).

The Slaaneshii prince is a support prince. It can get stuck in if necessary, but its job is really to throw BS5 Pavanes around.

If all you're doing with your slaanesh prince is tossing pavanes, it seems rather expensive for a d6 move. I'm not convinced that's worth the price.

But, back to the original question - give you reasons to take a Keeper...

The 'thirster is more mobile (flying vs. Fleet), stronger (S8 vs S7), harder to hit (WS 10 vs WS 8), and more survivable (3+/4+ vs --/4+).

The keeper can be upgraded to cope with many of these issues.

Sophmoric (hehe) Musk can add a good deal to the Keeper's Mobility.

Transfixing Gaze means that she's taking less hits from the best of the opponent's attacks - useful for dodging a klaw or fist attack.

The Keeper is better against Rank&File troops than the thirster. Against T4 or worse troops (the most common, by far), the Keeper still wounds just as well as the Thirster, with more attacks, still hitting on 3+. And, she avoids the hidden attack better.

Also, she's better against tarpitty units, as musk lets her leave, rather than sit and kill grots.

it's less effective against AV 14, multiwound T4 models, and the like.

It's more effective against vehicles that moved, due to the number of attacks. And 6+2d6 can pop 14's. How many multi-wound T4 models do you expect to face? There's your opponent's HQ, and then... the large number of Ogryns that you expect to be fielded?

I dunno, she's not a bloodthirster, as others have said, but she's certainly no slouch either, and has definite situational advantages over the thirster. If you expect those situations come up or not at 'ard boyz is a different questions.

Surely pavanes are better on a couple of Slaaneshi Heralds? Much cheaper...

Redbeard wrote:If all you're doing with your slaanesh prince is tossing pavanes, it seems rather expensive for a d6 move. I'm not convinced that's worth the price.

I would agree with that statement. Seems like a waste of a prince. Redbeard also gave excellent advice for using a KoS.

They are not heavy hitters Ian.



G

ArbitorIan wrote:Surely pavanes are better on a couple of Slaaneshi Heralds? Much cheaper...

Green Blow Fly wrote:They are not heavy hitters Ian.



G

And they are easy KP's. I'd say two KoS is better than 1 Kos and 2 Heralds.

Redbeard wrote:But, back to the original question - give you reasons to take a Keeper...

The 'thirster is more mobile (flying vs. Fleet), stronger (S8 vs S7), harder to hit (WS 10 vs WS 8), and more survivable (3+/4+ vs --/4+).

The keeper can be upgraded to cope with many of these issues.

Sophmoric (hehe) Musk can add a good deal to the Keeper's Mobility.

Transfixing Gaze means that she's taking less hits from the best of the opponent's attacks - useful for dodging a klaw or fist attack.

The Keeper is better against Rank&File troops than the thirster. Against T4 or worse troops (the most common, by far), the Keeper still wounds just as well as the Thirster, with more attacks, still hitting on 3+. And, she avoids the hidden attack better.

Also, she's better against tarpitty units, as musk lets her leave, rather than sit and kill grots.

Hit & Run can be very nice, granted. It doesn't help you catch up with fast-moving vehicles, though, nor reposition from a bad scatter.

The Keeper is (a little) better against massed rank'n file, but that's rarely what you need your greater daemon for. (But against everything but Berserkers, WS10 is approximately equal to the -1 attack from Transfixing Gaze, from the perspective of avoiding the hidden powerfist, and better against everyone else in the combat.)

it's less effective against AV 14, multiwound T4 models, and the like.

It's more effective against vehicles that moved, due to the number of attacks. And 6+2d6 can pop 14's. How many multi-wound T4 models do you expect to face? There's your opponent's HQ, and then... the large number of Ogryns that you expect to be fielded?

6+2d6 requires at least an 8 to glance AV 14; Unholy Might makes that a 7, 8 to pen. The (charging) Bloodthirster gives up one attack, but hits at S9, pen'ing on a 6. I'd cheerfully trade 1 attack for the increased chance to cause damage. (The 'thirster can also hurt a Monolith, which is almost irrelevant, but still true.)

Nob Bikers still occur often enough that the difference between S8 & S7 is non-trivial.

I dunno, she's not a bloodthirster, as others have said, but she's certainly no slouch either, and has definite situational advantages over the thirster. If you expect those situations come up or not at 'ard boyz is a different questions.

I just wish that it was harder to make a comparison between them. Take the Lord of Change - a very different role than the Bloodthirster, and useful in situations where the 'thirster isn't (and vice-versa). If the Keeper maxed out at S5, but had 10 base attacks, you'd have a real choice to make - the 'thirster would be better against larger targets, but the Keeper would be an anti-troop lawnmower.

Redbeard wrote:If all you're doing with your slaanesh prince is tossing pavanes, it seems rather expensive for a d6 move. I'm not convinced that's worth the price.

Depends on the rest of your army really. If you've got a mainly slaaneshii army, then probably not. If, on the other hand, you've got a skittles-type army, having a pavane can significantly increase the effectiveness of other units, especially ones like bloodletters/bloodcrushers (come a wee-bit closer to make up for not having fleet, or move out of that terrain so I strike first with furious charge), or my favorite use, in combination with flamers. (let's see, that's three flamers, each hitting 10 models...)

Redbeard wrote:
Transfixing Gaze means that she's taking less hits from the best of the opponent's attacks - useful for dodging a klaw or fist attack.

The Keeper is better against Rank&File troops than the thirster. gainst T4 or worse troops (the most common, by far), the Keeper still wounds just as well as the Thirster, with more attacks, still hitting on 3+. And, she avoids the hidden attack better.

I guess where I saw the biggest comparison for a keeper was in a khorne chariot.

Your keeper is running 200: A6, S6, with fleet, and 4+ over T6

For that, you get 2 khornate chariots, with unholy might, that have twice the total wounds, a 3+/5+ over T5, and 8 total attacks.

These chariots are much closer in purpose (anti-troop machines) to what the keeper is, so perhaps this is a better comparison.

Unfortunately, I think the keeper loses out in this analysis. Twice the wounds with comparable toughness/saves, and the ability to be in more than once place...