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I've been looking through the new C:SM (seeing as I don't get neat new stuff as a DA player yet).

Anywho - have proxied this a few times and like how it plays. Just looking for a few critiques:

Ok - so playtested a bit more and have decided to make a few tweaks. Don't have the SM codex in front of me atm, so points are probably a bit off.


HQ - Chappy - 120pts

Elites
2 TL AutoCannon Dread - 125pts
2 TL AutoCannon Dread - 125pts
2 TL AutoCannon Dread - 125pts

Heavy
Predator w/AutoCannon HB sponsons - 85pts
Predator w/AutoCannon HB sponsons - 85pts
Predator w/AutoCannon HB sponsons - 85pts

Troops
Troops - Tac Squad x9, Flamer/LasCannon - 250pts (?)
Sgt w PW/BP
Razorback w/ TL HB

Troops - Tac Squad x9, Flamer/LasCannon - 250pts (?)
Sgt w PW/BP
Razorback w/ TL HB

Troops - Tac Squad x9, Flamer/LasCannon - 250pts (?)
Sgt w PW/BP
Razorback w/ TL HB

Comes right to 1500pts, if the options are correct.

What I've found is TL Assault Cannons FTW! but when I moved the squads up to size, the mini-devastator troops have been better at consistently cracking armor with the LasCannons.

Basically been playing with 3 teams; dividing up the army evenly with 1 pred, dread, and Rzr back and leaving the 3 squads with LasCannons far enough back to avoid most shooting. They typically have lasted the entire game, giving good results (average about 12 shots per game). Now I don't have much AP<3 weaponary, but all the twin linking makes up for it. Pretty much forces MEQ's to have to take the saves.

I was really against taking the whole squad, but now having played, it was a great suggestion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trying to have an army worthy of going against the Kan Wall

That way I can have 2 people play at the house as well as having another army to use.

Your preds dont know what to do as they are now, keep the autocannon then you have lots of points left there, your librarian dont want a plasma pistol that will burn him. Make those tac squads ten man and mount them in rhinos with special and heavy weapons.
Dreads want a DCCW and then just walk them toward your enemy no one wants 3 dreads crashing in to his lines.

Keep the dreads how they are there support dreads, and some good anti-transport/ anti troop there, get 10 man tactical squads, and if you combat squad in the razorbacks, leave half behind with heavy weapons.

I actually like the Preds. They attract a lot of attention because of the LasCannons and oppenents don't pay attention to the 4 shot Dreads and 4 Shot Razorbacks as much. And all the shots are Twin Linked, so I'm hitting like mad. I've got a good step range and each vehicle can obscure the others. I've played vs MEQ (Chaos and other marines) and IG. It has performed well, with a 3-1-1 record. Night fighting really helps get things positioned well.

But I did ask for criticism so:

Skurk: I've debated about the plasma pistol. Maybe changing to a combi-melta. I won't change the dreads as they are basically walking Hydra Flak tanks. Fething awesome.

I'm actually debating about taking a Master of the Forge so I can take 6 of them. 24 Twin Linked Str 7 shots per turn at roughly 750pts. And unlike Loota's, I can shoot at 6 different targets - yummy goodness.

I am not a fan of the combat squads. Probably just hard headed and not a fan of Drop poding.

Xav: Agreed. I'll have to look at the points difference for maxing out the squad and then leaving behind the small "devastator" squad. It would be nice to have the meltagun option for having the maxed squad also inside the Razor.

6 support dreads = awesome but maybe stick something like a plasma cannon in the last three dreads, stops mech troops+termies.

I've debated Plasma Cannons - and with the new scatter rules help, but I've found them to be less reliable unless facing a true horde army. I don't have the mathhammer to back it up, but I think the 4 TL Str 7 shots would be better than the plasma cannon template.

Just my own feeling.

Well not as good vs mech, maybe dread loadout 2x assault cannon for three of them or 1x autocannon 1 assault cannon.

Hmm. I need a mathhammer! What would be the statistical difference between the:

Dread with 2x Assault Cannons

Dread with Assault Cannon / TL AutoCannon

Dread with 2x TL Auto Cannon

vs Mech, MEQ, GEQ?

Versus GEQs: (T3, 5+)

Two Assault Cannons: 4,44 dead GEQs (2,22 when in cover)
Assault Cannon/Twin Linked Autocannon: 3,7 dead GEQs (1,85 when in cover)
Two Twin Linked Autocannons: 2,96 dead GEQs (1,48 when in cover)

Versus MEQs: (T4, 3+)

Two Assault Cannons: 1,48 dead MEQs (cover irrelevant)
Assault Cannon/Twin Linked Autocannon: 1,23 dead MEQs (")
Two Twin Linked Autocannons: 0,98 dead MEQs (")

Warning: I just noticed that I forgot to take the rending of the AsC into account. Therefore, the AsC should perform even better against MEQs than the TL-AC.

I don't want to do the mathammer for rending assault cannons again, this was done in a tactics thread, but assault cannons are generally better than autocannons due to their ability to take down AV14 better than a lascannon, while autocannons can barely glance AV13.

Looks like assault cannons are better. What are the costs on AsC and TL-AC?

Postscriptum: Mathhammer is rather simplified but should overall give a correct view on how the three choices relate to each other.

Postpostscriptum: The autocannon wounds easier when dealing with T5+ models. However, the rending of the assault cannon may compare quite well to that effect. So I guess even against MCs the AsC might still be better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just did some additional mathhammer and wanted to advertise the AsC + DCCW/SB combination.

Assault Cannon and a Storm Bolter still kill 3,11 GEQs (not in cover) or 1,258 MEQs (cover irrelevant) - that is more than the 2xTL-AC combo, it is cheaper and you get a S10 close combat energy weapon!

The disadvantage is, of course, lesser range, but to use a walker as a sit-back firing platform seems a bit like a waste to me, just personal opinion. I just think advancing dreads, laying down a hail of fire and THEN cracking tanks and MCs with their DCCW are cooler than ones just standing around and dakka-ing the whole game.

Nice work! Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Little skewed at the moment. Just realized you can't take two AC on a dread ;-)

But the AC/SB build info is spot on.

Uriels_Flame wrote:I've been looking through the new C:SM (seeing as I don't get neat new stuff as a DA player yet).

Anywho - have proxied this a few times and like how it plays. Just looking for a few critiques:

HQ - Librarian w/Plasma Pistol - 115pts

Troops - Tac Squad x4, Sgt w PF/BP - 190pts (Librarians Ride)
Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannons

Troops - Tac Squad x5 - Sgt w PF/BP - 206pts
Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannons

Troops - Tac Squad x5 - Sgt w PF/BP - 206pts
Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannons

Elite - Dreadnought w TL Autocannons x2 - 125pts
Elite - Dreadnought w TL Autocannons x2 - 125pts
Elite - Dreadnought w TL Autocannons x2 - 125pts

Heavy - Predator w TL LasCannon Turret; HB Sponsons - 130pts
Heavy - Predator w TL LasCannon Turret; HB Sponsons - 130pts
Heavy - Predator w TL LasCannon Turret; HB Sponsons - 130pts

That's roughly 1482pts. It's a heavily armored unit, but like I said it has play tested here pretty well. Having everything Twin Linked really helps.

Thanks for looking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trying to have an army worthy of going against the Kan Wall

That way I can have 2 people play at the house as well as having another army to use.

This certainly is a nice list,you've got just about enough scoring units,plus all them heavy weapons ouch...btw does your Librarian have a psychic power ? if so might be good to either use the points on marines or buy him a psychic power that helps the squad.

However, the fact that Autocannons have that nice 48" range make them valuable, too, even if AC/SB kills more stuff.

Maybe I would try and give two of your dreadnoughts the AC/HB combo while the last dreadnought gets 2xTL-AC. The whole "squadron" advances; the TL-AC Cybot engages long-range enemy anti-tank weapons like lascannons and missile launchers with his TL-AC and therefore covers the advance of the short-range AC/SB-CCCW Cybots. Gives you some versatility and still keeps one of the AC Cybots - I have to admit that I think TL-ACs on a cybot simply look cool

Postscriptum: For example, a 2xTL-AC Cybot firing at an enemy IG ML/LC-HWS in cover has roughly a chance of inflicting 1,48 unsaved wounds; thats not much, but this will insta-kill one team, so the HWS' firepower is reduced by 33% and the rest of the guys have to make a morale test, which gives the additional chance of making them run away. This way it should be possible to reduce or at least harrass enemies trying to stop your cybot advance. (If your enemy fields AT vehicles, its the job of the Annihilator Predators to deal with them, of course.)

I have to agree - the TL AutoCannons are sweet. As you can see in my sig, the Deathwing Dreads I use are Mortis pattern anyway (except for tourneys).

I like the Preds as equiped because I can still get 7 shots per tank and insta-kill with one. And between the TL Assault Cannons and the Las Cannons I can look for vulnerable armor.

I did take the advice and Combat Squad my troops, thus giving me a melta/flamer option in the Razorback and a Missle Launcher per squad.

If I leave stuff at Cost - I can get the TL Las Can on the Razorback for the same cost as the Assault Cannons - but then I can take basic preds for 85 pts, and the Basic Dreads for 115.

I just don't like the feel of having Lascannons on the Razrobacks as they become an easier target. And besides, it's like having Baal Predator transports!

I played the above list vs Eldar the other day. He got first turn and destroyed a Razor and the squad inside, but got mad when his pathfinders didn't glance one of my dreads (like he failed his "pride" roll or something).

Once I returned fire (spearhead deployment) I wrecked both his Wave Serpents and blew through most of his troops. Having all the weapons Twin Linked was freaking awesome, especially re-rolling those Assault Cannon shots.

Assault cannon is the way to go, they're the same point value, 10 points for an Auto Cannon, or an assault cannon. Assault Cannon is 1 less str, but with rending, and you lose your twin linked, but you get 2 more shots, and it has great potential for vehicle hunting.

Ok - so playtested a bit more and have decided to make a few tweaks. Don't have the SM codex in front of me atm, so points are probably a bit off.


HQ - Chappy - 120pts

Elites
2 TL AutoCannon Dread - 125pts
2 TL AutoCannon Dread - 125pts
2 TL AutoCannon Dread - 125pts

Heavy
Predator w/AutoCannon HB sponsons - 85pts
Predator w/AutoCannon HB sponsons - 85pts
Predator w/AutoCannon HB sponsons - 85pts

Troops
Troops - Tac Squad x9, Flamer/LasCannon - 250pts (?)
Sgt w PW/BP
Razorback w/ TL HB

Troops - Tac Squad x9, Flamer/LasCannon - 250pts (?)
Sgt w PW/BP
Razorback w/ TL HB

Troops - Tac Squad x9, Flamer/LasCannon - 250pts (?)
Sgt w PW/BP
Razorback w/ TL HB

Comes right to 1500pts, if the options are correct.

What I've found is TL Assault Cannons FTW! but when I moved the squads up to size, the mini-devastator troops have been better at consistently cracking armor with the LasCannons.

Basically been playing with 3 teams; dividing up the army evenly with 1 pred, dread, and Rzr back and leaving the 3 squads with LasCannons far enough back to avoid most shooting. They typically have lasted the entire game, giving good results (average about 12 shots per game). Now I don't have much AP<3 weaponary, but all the twin linking makes up for it. Pretty much forces MEQ's to have to take the saves.

I was really against taking the whole squad, but now having played, it was a great suggestion.

Still taking comments, though. Anyone see a way I can get my TL Assault Cannons back

My first suggestion to getting back those assault cannons. Remove all the PW. Replace them with Meltabombs and a Combi-Flamer and give the tacs meltaguns. There you go, tank hunters and they can kill hordes with a flamer shot. Nice. Since you don't know points cost i'll help you out. BTW a chappy is best used for assault and you probably wont be assaulting so a commander or libby would work better. I'm going to say libby.

With the tac squad the way they are and the razorbacks, I reccomend swapping the preadators for landspeeders. The heavy flamers and the MM will probably be more help then the extra anti-infantry shots which are covered already by the AC dreads and the Razorbacks. The swap would also save you 45 points.


Librarian - 100

Dreadnought - 125
2x TL Autocannons

Dreadnought - 125
2x TL Autocannons

Dreadnought - 125
2x TL Autocannons

Tac Squad - 225
10x; Meltagun; Lascannon; Razorback

Tac Squad - 225
10x; Meltagun; Lascannon; Razorback

Tac Squad - 225
10x; Meltagun; Lascannon; Razorback

Predator - 85
AC + HB

Predator - 85
AC + HB

Predator - 85
AC + HB

(just for referance a MM/HF speeder is 70 points)

1405 is the grand total! Now, to fit in 3x TL Assault cannons on the razorback we can do one thing. Swap out a lascannon for a missile launcher and you got it. I would actually recommend with the current build to get 2x Assault cannons and give the sergeants meltabombs. You can go a lot of ways at this point. Upgrade the sergeants with PF + Combi-Flamers or Meltabombs + CF etc. It's your choice.