Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It is my opinion that in future marine armies or possibly limited to the future BA dex release, Rhino transports should have an open-topped option.

The benefits:
Assault Vehicle
Entire unit may fire from vehicle

Drawbacks: Plus one on the damage roll for hits scored

It is my opinion that an Open-Topped, Rhino (with all normal goodies), plus a Siege Shield or Extra Armor standard at 45pts would be fair and balanced in terms of gameply. It would serve the purpose of getting assault troops to the heart of the fight while being less effective as mobile terrain (because it would get blown up more easily)

Further, but more of a wish list type arguments, is that the pintle mounted weapons had more variety. Maybe a heavy bolter oor a heavy flamer. The way I see it, if these types of weapons are being mounted in skimmer and attack bikes, why not a tank?! Obviously the point values would need to be appropriate but it makes sense that the Imperium would have these options.

What do you think?

Maybe, instead of a new Rhino version (insert appropriate animal name) this could all be accomplished simply through wargear options for the standard Rhino.

Rhino- 35
--Open-topped- free
-Pintle mounted weapon Option
-- Storm Bolter- XYZ pts
-- Combi Bolter- XYZ pts
-- Heavy Bolter- "
-- Heavy Flamer- "
-- Multi Melta- "


C&C welcome

I think that would be a good idea, but I think armor would need to be reduced when being shot at by artillery or something...

..a lot.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:I think that would be a good idea, but I think armor would need to be reduced when being shot at by artillery or something...

..a lot.

Why is that necessary? The detriment for not being encased in armor is the +1 to the vehicle damage chart. That is pretty darn mitigating, making a lower front and side armor value superfluous.

If you want to do this as a house rule, I suggest 32 points for the basic vehicle. This reflects it being 16% more vulnerable to hits, and having greater utility to the passengers (thus not 16% cheaper.)

Add options at the same cost as a normal rhino.

The Rhino kit comes with a roof hatch, so just leave that off the model. You can always clip it back on for non-house games -- magnetize it for easy use.

Ideally, you should model an interior for the open top Rhino. I thought I had seen an interior either from GW or Forge World though I can't find them now. You can get interior detailing kits for historical vehicles, or just do it with plasticard and bitz.

I think 30 points for an Assault ramp woulod work just as well. Screw BA, Chaos needs some kind of edge in assault over the many, many imperial codexes, otherwise there's no point to playing Chaos save generic daemons and higher costs. Expensive? Yes. At least the option is there though.

I don’t see this as an option for Codex Marines as violating the chassis of the rhino would be a form of defilement to them. Plus being open topped is very advantageous during game play, but not in a realistic battle where a fully armored top is far more critical to a troop transport. I can't imagine a chapter master ordering tech marines to cut the tops off the Rhinos under the notion it would be an improvement.

The Rhino already grants fire ports that the marines can use at the cost of being open topped in terms of receiving damage. Making it so a Rhino allows 10 marines to drive around and fully utilize their weapons with the addition perk of being able to assault from a vehicle is rather much. These benefits are not balanced out by a plus 1 to damage table roll that making it a free upgrade would suggest. If this trait would be taken I would recommend it cost around 30 points if not more – plus the unit should switch over to fast, as it could drive around 12 inches and fire ten bolters (or some special weapons) twice and then the crew have the ability to assault out of it. This would play havoc on orks, tyranids, and horde armies. But to take such an option is rather against Marine tactics and conduct and gives a too much advantage to a troop unit for too little cost.

Grunt13 wrote:I don’t see this as an option for Codex Marines as violating the chassis of the rhino would be a form of defilement to them. Plus being open topped is very advantageous during game play, but not in a realistic battle where a fully armored top is far more critical to a troop transport. I can't imagine a chapter master ordering tech marines to cut the tops off the Rhinos under the notion it would be an improvement.

The Rhino already grants fire ports that the marines can use at the cost of being open topped in terms of receiving damage. Making it so a Rhino allows 10 marines to drive around and fully utilize their weapons with the addition perk of being able to assault from a vehicle is rather much. These benefits are not balanced out by a plus 1 to damage table roll that making it a free upgrade would suggest. If this trait would be taken I would recommend it cost around 30 points if not more – plus the unit should switch over to fast, as it could drive around 12 inches and fire ten bolters (or some special weapons) twice and then the crew have the ability to assault out of it. This would play havoc on orks, tyranids, and horde armies. But to take such an option is rather against Marine tactics and conduct and gives a too much advantage to a troop unit for too little cost.

Fluff aside. I think you underscore the detriment of open topped vehicles but I agree that an increase in points IS required. I also agree with some of the above comments that an assault ramp while keeping rhino closed would be 30 points. I think 30 points is too much if the rhino "upgrades" to open-topped. Maybe 10-15.

One aspect you, Grunt13, mentioned that I did not think of was making the open-topped option available exclusively to assault troops in the fast attack slot. Very astute of you. This would better prevent abuse of the vehicle.

Being a long time DE player I recognize the tactical advantages of such a design. A vehicle moving 12 inches is really risky to assault, as 6s would be required to hit and it can peel away next turn and an armor value of 11 gives a great deal of protection against basic weapons that would be able to take out DE raiders or ork trucks. The price is a big issue here as well, even at 65 the Rhino would be a deal as you would be effectually giving an entire squad jetpacks and a shield resistant to all attacks under 5. Counting the Rhino as open topped is not much of a handicap, as I found in most games over half the time a Rhino is fired upon it uses those rules due to its fire ports.

I could foresee situations where the Rhinos speed around infantry and just pour bolter fire into them. Imagine a squad of 30 orks or genestealers getting rounded up by the vehicles while the squad poured a ceaseless amount of fire into them. Sure the orks can try with their rockets or power claws and the genestealers also have a chance in combat, but history has shown me that such a vehicle would have a field day in such a situation.

For Blood Angels I would suggest going with the ramp upgrade that was mentioned, but add something to make it a risky option, like a roll of a one the Rhino’s ramp malfunctions and the crew cannot disembark that turn, or they are slowed down and manage to disembark but cannot shoot or assault that turn. I think their old super charged engines followed a somewhat similar design.

open topped rhinos would be exellent for Chaos players...ever thought of having a rhino full of Khorne Berzerkers...OPEN TOPPED??! Hell YEah!!

Grunt13 wrote:
The Rhino already grants fire ports that the marines can use at the cost of being open topped in terms of receiving damage.

That's not accurate (and actually never was since when it had that rule in 4th it was mitigated by the marines all being in 3+ save or better armor).

As to open topped rhino's they'd radically change the way marines play (taking them back to the 3rd edition 'rhino rush' which was much disliked back then). So I'd need to play test it a fair bit before I was comfortable guessing at a price (as the lack of sweeping advances and consolidating back into transports might make the rhino rush less good then it used to be).

Jack

Baal Rhino?
Siege Shield makes it ignore difficult terrain so I think that evens out with the open topped. I guess it could be about 40 points.

Jackmojo wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:
The Rhino already grants fire ports that the marines can use at the cost of being open topped in terms of receiving damage.

That's not accurate (and actually never was since when it had that rule in 4th it was mitigated by the marines all being in 3+ save or better armor).

Oops looks like I was confused by my using Rhinos for my stormtroopers in my DH army. I forgot about the protection granted by power armor.

And yet, you will see them in every devi squad that ever existed.

AV11 bunker to protect from those initial barrage of fire. While the current rhino has the same effect, its limited to 2 heavy weapons, not all of them.

Jayden63 wrote:And yet, you will see them in every devi squad that ever existed.

AV11 bunker to protect from those initial barrage of fire. While the current rhino has the same effect, its limited to 2 heavy weapons, not all of them.

For this reason especially, I agree with an above post limiting them to Fast attack transports. And yes I am aware units not designated a transport may embark in them. Besides, as far as shooting from open topped vehicle, doesn't the unit count as moving? Heavy weapons woun't benefit at all from this unless they has assault weapons.

They only count as moving if the vehicle itself moves.

BeRzErKeR wrote:They only count as moving if the vehicle itself moves.

oh i see now... benefiting from the armor and shooting safely when stationary

well i say its about time devs become useful!

Grunt13 wrote:

The Rhino already grants fire ports that the marines can use at the cost of being open topped in terms of receiving damage.

It is a fire point.

Fire points don't make a vehicle open topped.

If it did there would be no point in putting 2 devestator squads in a Stormlords huge FIRE POINT on its back

Open topped rhinos would not make sense. Fluff or practially.
Reason #1 it would be tech heresy. Razorbacks are pushing it.
Reason #2 Rhinos already have a tough time of surviving, don't make it harder

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Chaos needs some kind of edge in assault over the many, many imperial codexes, otherwise there's no point to playing Chaos save generic daemons and higher costs. Expensive? Yes. At least the option is there though.

Yeah Chaos marks don't do anything for chaos marines do they? *cough* NURGLE SPAM *cough*

To the OP, a great deal about 40k rules doesn't make sense but are put in place so all armies don't play the same (that would be extremely boring). What you're suggesting is to take something that benefits Orks and give it to SMs with no downside. SMs already have better weapons and vehicles than Orks..

As a Tau player, I wouldn't play a SM player that had these rhinos for the simple fact that you're talking about cheap transports that allow assaults. Why would you ever take a land raider? I can see it now, 4 rhinos shoot across the field on the 1st turn and pop smoke they then assault my gunline on the 2nd turn if I don't get lucky and pop them. IG would be equally hosed by this tactic.

agnosto wrote:
Yeah Chaos marks don't do anything for chaos marines do they? *cough* NURGLE SPAM *cough*

If we still had marks that would be great. We can pay for an icon (only two of which are even remotely cost effective) whose benefits go away when the wielder dies. Have you played a Plague Marine spam army? I voyage to say that more than half the people complaining about them never have. They're 23 points a model. That's a marine and a half. Your body count will never be enough with all plague marines.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Have you played a Plague Marine spam army? I voyage to say that more than half the people complaining about them never have. They're 23 points a model. That's a marine and a half. Your body count will never be enough with all plague marines.

My firewarriors are 10pts a model and if even 1 plague marine gets into CC with them, they'll probably lose and run screaming for the hills. I think, point for point, you win. Somebody did the mathhammer before and it takes a great deal of pulserifle shooting to take down even 1 plague marine.... 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 3+ armor save, 4+ FNP save. There's too much that can go wrong in there for a Tau player so instead of using grunts to kill grunts I have to use several 200pt crisis suit "elit" units to whittle down 161 pt plague marine unit while the rest of the CM army is breathing down my neck (lash prince, bikers, etc.)

Yes, I know all about plague marines.

Anywho. On topic; MEQs don't have an abundance of assault vehicles for a reason; the game would be even more overbalanced in their favor.

So, your argument that Plague Marines aren't too expensive is that Fire Warriors suck? Or that it's hard for you to kill an enemy based on being hard to kill?

Anywho, this is a bad idea. Play Orks if you want a horde of ramshackle vehicles to go careening into the enemy lines before disgorging assault troops.

Agreed with Rustyknight.
First turn, advance 12 and pop smoke. Second turn, engage at will and assault whatever you like.
3rd turn...
4th turn- Profit.

Rhino rush is too powerful. Wait the extra turn and use your signature marine weapon, the bolter or advance one turn under fire from the enemy and get some use out of your power armor. Assaulting from vehicles is meant to be rare in a marine army.

RustyKnight wrote:So, your argument that Plague Marines aren't too expensive is that Fire Warriors suck? Or that it's hard for you to kill an enemy based on being hard to kill?

Anywho, this is a bad idea. Play Orks if you want a horde of ramshackle vehicles to go careening into the enemy lines before disgorging assault troops.

Naw the plague marine thing was an aside started earlier. One of my long standing grudges with GW is that point for point, a grunt should be a grunt (equal) in all armies that way elites will be, well, elite. A space marine grunt is better than a tau elite in many respects and for less points.

I actually agree with you here and it's been my point throughout this. There would be no point in playing any army other than space marines (actually a khorne army would love a vehicle like this) if you could just add assault transport capabilities to a cheap transport like a rhino. Heck, even if it gets blown up, marines are so tough they hardly lose any troops.

WRONG,WRONG,WRONG

T'au kick booty if played right.

I know a T'au player who always RAPES everything my buddies can throw at him. he plays Farsight enclaves

it is his only 40k army.

He also carves us up with his Brettonians and High elves too


@agnosto

thats why we have a point system.

there will be 2 space marines for every death guard. for a very good reason. 3+ armor and FNP

FYI plague marines are not grunts. neither are 1k sons. or zerkers

come to think of it MEQs don't have grunts

Grey Templar wrote:WRONG,WRONG,WRONG

T'au kick booty if played right.

I know a T'au player who always RAPES everything my buddies can throw at him. he plays Farsight enclaves

it is his only 40k army.

He also carves us up with his Brettonians and High elves too


@agnosto

thats why we have a point system.

there will be 2 space marines for every death guard. for a very good reason. 3+ armor and FNP

FYI plague marines are not grunts. neither are 1k sons. or zerkers

come to think of it MEQs don't have grunts

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.
I openly admit I'm still learning tau after having played my old khorne army for so many years and my chaos stunties in fantasy.

I would love to assault out of a Rhino with my Blood Angels but then why would you need a land raider crusaider when you could get away with a cheeper rhino!

Meh.
Assaulting out of an unmoved rhino already gives a unit a 15" range.
It's plenty.
Open topped would be over the top for anything in the rhino.

Any troop unit would benefit like crazy from it.

CSM codex is decent enough... I don't understand why their are so many wish list threads... sure it's bland but everything, bar the spawns, works well enough in the CSM army. It's just that people are either not giving the other units a chance or are just not adapting and dying.

agnosto wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Have you played a Plague Marine spam army? I voyage to say that more than half the people complaining about them never have. They're 23 points a model. That's a marine and a half. Your body count will never be enough with all plague marines.

My firewarriors are 10pts a model and if even 1 plague marine gets into CC with them, they'll probably lose and run screaming for the hills. I think, point for point, you win. Somebody did the mathhammer before and it takes a great deal of pulserifle shooting to take down even 1 plague marine.... 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 3+ armor save, 4+ FNP save. There's too much that can go wrong in there for a Tau player so instead of using grunts to kill grunts I have to use several 200pt crisis suit "elit" units to whittle down 161 pt plague marine unit while the rest of the CM army is breathing down my neck (lash prince, bikers, etc.)

Yes, I know all about plague marines.

Anywho. On topic; MEQs don't have an abundance of assault vehicles for a reason; the game would be even more overbalanced in their favor.

Wasn't trying to say they aren't good, I'm just saying which threatens you more, 2 squads of plaguers or 3 squads of CSM? I know Tau are a tricky breed. I'm just sick of hearing all about this "Lash/Plague/Oblit" spam and NEVER HAVING LOST TO IT. Srsly, the internet needs to shut up about it already. I'm not even a great tactician and I'd only call myself a decent player and I can work around it. There just aren't enough models for it to count for jack.

I'm just saying which threatens you more, 2 squads of plaguers or 3 squads of CSM?

Well, it depends many factors:
-what will your army list work better at killing?
-do you have psycher battle squads, running those CSM away is fun...
-Objectives, how many and are they just sitting on it...does he have to cover multiple objectives...etc.

I find having 30 plague marines in my 1675 list has worked wonders.
I could have gotten 40 CSM, but that would have meant minimal upgrades.

In my gaming group, most would rather go up against 30 CSM though, there are more openings to neutrilize those squads:
-Morale.
-Pinning.
-Sweeping advance.

Me. ill take on plague marines any day of the week.

they are just begging to get hit with assault termies