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What are the most used competative lists you see?
In context of all the races?

Eldar - dual seer coucil and serpents
Orks - nob bikers
Chaos - dual lash and obs
Marines - 6 Dreads
- All bikes list
- What else?
DE - ??
IG - ??
Nids - ??
Necrons - ??
Daemons - ??
Tau - ??
etc etc...

A few questions before I make some comments. First of all what point total are you looking at 1750 2k or 2.5k? As different builds will be seen in different amounts.

that being said
Necrons: Triple monolith
WH: Immolater spam or mech sisters with triple excorcist
DE: Raider and Lance spam, Haemoculi jetbike spam

I'm not an incredibly active tournament player currently, but for orks I would think ghaz/nobz/boyz BW spam would be more competitive than nob bikers. Judging by Batreps and such that seems to be winning the tournies more.

Competitive armies are defined by their ability to deal with any force they might come across. Sure, your demons/tyranids/necrons/whatever kick ass against anything that runs unprotected infantry, but what do they do against mechanized armies?

It looks a little something like this:



Armies that have to the tools to be dangerous vs any foe:

Marines
Wolves
Chaos
Guard
Tau
Sisters
Daemonhunters (but only if you feel like running the "as many land raiders as I can cram into this points value" list)
Eldar
Dark Eldar

Armies that don't:

Necrons
Tyranids
Orks
Demons

So there you go. There are no tiers as far as I see it, only functional armies and non-functional or situationally functional armies. How to tell? If you can't find an army list that makes you go "well.... I guess I'm boned" from turn 1, then you have a functional army. If you have an achilles heel... well, you're going to fight it eventually. For the above armies that achilles heel is a common weakness - high armor vehicles.

I expect lots of ork players will disagree with me. I'll let the number of "how to deal with land raiders?" posts that pop up here from ork players stand as evidence for my point. Sorry boyz, should have looted some meltaguns.

Oh, and necron armies with 3 monoliths are probably the weakest list you could "competitively build" (ie, no silliness like 200 pt sergeants and intentionally poor choices). With almost 800 points in one place you're going to have a veeeery lean phase out number. Who cares if you have 3 unkillable fortresses if your opponents can win by just... not trying to kill them?

This really depends what points value are playing at. What works good at 1500 or 1750 is vastly different then a 2500 point Ardboys list.

Excuse me Mr Grankobot! I take offence! As a DH player I will tell you that there are NO competitive builds available to us and I resent you trying to make the worst army out there any better and detract from my joy when occasionally winning! How dare you!

Madgod wrote:Excuse me Mr Grankobot! I take offence! As a DH player I will tell you that there are NO competitive builds available to us and I resent you trying to make the worst army out there any better and detract from my joy when occasionally winning! How dare you!

You'd better hope DeadShane doesn't read this :S

I completely disagree with the Ork not being a top tier army its consistently one of the most difficult armies to play against and has such a wide variety of great units.

Battlewagon nob spam etc..


Its just a fantastic army.

Orks are an army that win turnies often, and daemons haven't failed to not apper in the top 10.

Orks wouldn't win tournaments regularly if 40k was played elimination style, ie once you lose you're out, you have to keep winning to keep playing. This would mean that you'd have a much greater chance at drawing one of your counters, whereas the "everybody plays every round" style (while more fun, no doubt. Who wants to pay 15 bucks to get knocked out on round one?) means the odds are much more in your favor. For example:

Your battlewagon army plays foot eldar in round one. Obviously, you stomp him. Meanwhile 2 other crappy lists battle it out and the slightly less crappy one prevails. Over on table #3 two excellent players with solid competitive lists butt heads. One wins, one loses.

Now in round 2, winners play winners and losers play losers. You pair against the crappy but not crappiest army there. That's 2 wins to you from lucky matchups - this doesn't mean your army is competitive, it just means it's not the bottom of the barrel. In a big enough tournament you could find yourself at the top tables by round 3 just by stomping noobs.

Add in soft scores like sportsmanship, painting, and (ugh) composition, and it's pretty clear to see that "who won what tournament" isn't the best way to gauge the relative effectiveness of the armies available. You could wind up with 2 massacres and a loss and stand a good chance of winning, just by merit of having a pretty army and smiling at the refs. Overall it's a very subjective scale and makes it clear that the biggest problem with 40k isn't its noncompetitive armies, it's the noncompetitive tournaments.

Of course I'm not trying to say that orks are THE WURST ARMY EVAR AND WILL NEVER WIN!!11, only that I don't think you can call an army competitive when it has a high chance to hit a draw. For example, your battlewagon army gets paired against a solid DE player with a solid shooty list.

GG.

Some of those dark lances are going to get through, and then you're walking.

The lists in the "functional" column, however, can work around that. When you find yourself boned from turn 1, no matter what you do, no matter what you roll, you can't legitimately call your army competitive.

Anyway, looking back at the original post I see that this thread was about the best builds for each army, not how the armies stack up against eachother. Sorry for the derail

grankobot wrote:Competitive armies are defined by their ability to deal with any force they might come across. Sure, your demons/tyranids/necrons/whatever kick ass against anything that runs unprotected infantry, but what do they do against mechanized armies?

It looks a little something like this:



Armies that have to the tools to be dangerous vs any foe:

Marines
Wolves
Chaos
Guard
Tau
Sisters
Daemonhunters (but only if you feel like running the "as many land raiders as I can cram into this points value" list)
Eldar
Dark Eldar

Armies that don't:

Necrons
Tyranids
Orks
Demons

So there you go. There are no tiers as far as I see it, only functional armies and non-functional or situationally functional armies. How to tell? If you can't find an army list that makes you go "well.... I guess I'm boned" from turn 1, then you have a functional army. If you have an achilles heel... well, you're going to fight it eventually. For the above armies that achilles heel is a common weakness - high armor vehicles.

I expect lots of ork players will disagree with me. I'll let the number of "how to deal with land raiders?" posts that pop up here from ork players stand as evidence for my point. Sorry boyz, should have looted some meltaguns.

Oh, and necron armies with 3 monoliths are probably the weakest list you could "competitively build" (ie, no silliness like 200 pt sergeants and intentionally poor choices). With almost 800 points in one place you're going to have a veeeery lean phase out number. Who cares if you have 3 unkillable fortresses if your opponents can win by just... not trying to kill them?

Orks and tyranids can deal with armor just fine. You just have to assault it, and you always get there eventually. Land raiders can be tough for orks, but they have a few potential strength ten power claws and, honestly, the smart player will just...ignore them. In a small enough game (1500 points or so) a land raider is 1/6 of your entire army. All those points in one place. Just kill the other stuff. What's the land raider going to do? Tie you up in combat?

I completely agree with your point about necrons though. I wouldn't even call that three monolith list competitive. Nor the space marine six dreadnought list. The space marines don't need to phase out if you spent all your points on things that can't even hold an objective.

Biker nobs are stupid scary though. Not necessarily because they're so powerful, and they are. But simply because they're so easy to use. I mean what I said literally, stupid and scary. The unit is damn near unkillable and can take out most anything. (not to say they can't be dealt with, I've tank shocked them off the board with a god damn rhino) but they're tough enough that anyone can use them. Put them on the table and watch stuff die. But, for all the complaining you hear about them, the player paid for them. In 1500 points that's damn near half the army's points in one place. Be smart about objectives and pick on the weak extremities of that list and it can be beaten. It's just scary because it's an easy answer for people who want to win tournaments, but don't particularly like to think.

This is, of course, assuming the point cost is at or near 1,500.

As for your point on single elimination: that wouldn't solve your problem. You could still get to round three with lucky match ups and single elimination. The problem isn't the lack of elimination; it's the lack of rounds. 40k takes a long time to play, and tournaments are rarely more than three rounds. That said, you can still tell top tier lists from tournament standings just by sheer numbers. Sure, you can get lucky and win a tournament with a gakky army but when fifty people when fifty tournaments with damn near the same army, luck starts to seep out of the equation.

grankobot wrote:
Marines
Wolves
Chaos
Guard
Tau
Sisters
Daemonhunters (but only if you feel like running the "as many land raiders as I can cram into this points value" list)
Eldar
Dark Eldar

Armies that don't:

Necrons
Tyranids
Orks
Demons

So there you go. There are no tiers as far as I see it, only functional armies and non-functional or situationally functional armies. How to tell? If you can't find an army list that makes you go "well.... I guess I'm boned" from turn 1, then you have a functional army. If you have an achilles heel... well, you're going to fight it eventually. For the above armies that achilles heel is a common weakness - high armor vehicles.

So you say that Tau > Orks?

Righto.

Biker nobs are stupid scary though. Not necessarily because they're so powerful, and they are. But simply because they're so easy to use.

It would depend really.
against a russ heavy guard army i think its a case of who gets 1st turn does the most damage.

3 russ squads dropping plates is enough to wipe out a nob biker unit + most units with them.
nob bikers also suffer from low model count as they take a huge chunk from your points.
Not only that, but you dont allways find people know what to do with them
Wouldnt be the 1st time ive had to play a bikernob list against someone who only uses them because he has been told they are great.

2 CC turns later, a unit of DC, dante and mephiston and all bikernobz are dead and ive lost 2 DC lol.

Its just a case of what armies can handle them without having to really focus all they have at them. (or your left open against other units)

Nids arent actually bad atall.
Its just a case of a huge drop in nid players over time (jan - march should fix that)

Orks generally show up in mass at tournies, simply because they were the "new army" and the power builds could be found with ease.

Still doesent mean they are amazing, unless used by someone who knows what they are doing, and knows what to avoid.



I would love to say BA are a top tier army, but they arent
I generally get around a 60% or so win ratio, but its mainly due to no one playing BA lol.
Only long time gamers / tournie players know what to expect against them.

JD21290 wrote:nob bikers also suffer from low model count as they take a huge chunk from your points.
Not only that, but you dont allways find people know what to do with them
Wouldnt be the 1st time ive had to play a bikernob list against someone who only uses them because he has been told they are great

Exactly my point.

Backfire wrote:
So you say that Tau > Orks?

Righto.

Actually yeah, I would say that.

Armies should be judged by their best builds, not their worst. The worst of tau is really, really bad. Mind bogglingly bad, far worse than the worst of orks. This is probably where the army gets its bad rep - new players pick it up, and get their asses handed to them because it's very easy to screw yourself. Orks are much easier to pick up - put your models on the table, run at the other guy. Hurrrrrr.

The best of tau on the other hand is really, really good. Read this post for a very good example of how tau should be played. Unless you're in the group of people who turn up their noses and scoff at anything Stelek says just because it's Stelek saying it. If that's the case you should probably just ignore this post.

The only ork player I'm scared of is the one who's smart enough to sneak a power klaw into snikrot's unit.

snickrot's unit cannot have a power klaw... he replaces the nob, and can't take a klaw himself.

snickrot aint that great... i've had tac squads beat him back.

Mechanized Marines is a competitive army build... i've done very well in tournaments with it, and only lost those tournaments because I made minor mistakes. Marines are NOT forgiving of mistakes, like everyone seems to think. A slight error in deployment can leave you entirely screwed, because every unit relies on support. Don't have the correct support in the correct place, you will loose.

playing against a newb marine player is always easier than a newb ork player... orks are basically just point and waaaagh. marines take more... finesse.

The lack of Nob Bikers are likely attributed to one of the most popular armies gaining one of the best assault units in the game...that usually deploys out of a tank that Orks find neigh impossible to blow up;

TH/SS Terms storming out of a Land Raider

Horst wrote:snickrot's unit cannot have a power klaw... he replaces the nob, and can't take a klaw himself.

The reason why not every ork player is smart enough to do it is because it isn't immediately obvious how. You can attach dok grotsnik to the unit and still use their wonky outflanking rule.

It gives the squad a hidden power klaw and FNP. Nasty combo.

grankobot wrote:

Armies that have to the tools to be dangerous vs any foe:

Marines
Wolves
Chaos
Guard
Tau
Sisters
Daemonhunters (but only if you feel like running the "as many land raiders as I can cram into this points value" list)
Eldar
Dark Eldar

Armies that don't:

Necrons
Tyranids
Orks
Demons

This list is wrong on a few levels. It largely ignores the amount of ease an army has, which effects a lot of its playability. All most all players would do better with orks then demon hunters, as orks are by no means a finesse army. In addition the orks cannot deal with one unit means they are a bad army is a good example of fuzzy logic. Heres a counter example. With the exception of kroot the entire tau army cannot deal with orks in hand to hand.

Top tier: Largely what makes an army top tier is the age of its codex. The increase of toughness in vehicles coupled with the troops only scoring bs of 5th edition has made the game much more hateful to older codexs. They normally pay more for their weapons then newer lists, and dont have the cheap troops of new dexs.

Space wolves-ability to handle almost anything, almost all units have multiple rolls to play.

Space marines-to a similar extent. They can design lists that have an answer to everything, but require a decent amount of skill to work. Can also design lists that run high in the durr hurr scale, such as multiple raider TH/SS rush.

Chaos-largely the 2 prince, plague/oblit lists. Same as marines, generally less numbers but more elite and tougher/harder hitting per unit.

Orks-dirt cheap troops, who are effective in hand to hand. Plus some of the best hand to hand in the game in the form of nob squads. They can throw a lot of shots too. The real strength of the orks though is sheer numbers. Point, Waaaagh, win, 180 dudes in 2000 points is downright hateful. Who cares if they cant deal with raiders, they will kill everything else, and that raider will not make its points back.

Guard-Lots of cheap troops, lots of shots, lots and lots of high strength shots.

Second tier: These are armies that can do alright if played very well, but generally arent as competitive as other lists. Largely due to being outdated. Tend to pay more for the same thing in new dex. Compare a twin linked bright lance serpent to a vendetta or valkyrie.

Eldar-Once the kings of 40k, they have been knocked down. The overcosting of our transports compared to new dexs, coupled with largely weak/overpriced troops has dropped this dex down in power by a lot. In addition our armies often lose out in the massacre system, because we simply cannot bring the sheer numbers of units to overwhelm our opponents. Can still do well, but generally require much more finesse then your opponent to win with.

Dark eldar-same boat as eldar. While better in objective missions, they lose out hard in kill points. Also in need of a new codex.

Nids-generally are not as strong as they were, troops only scoring means kill the tyrants and troops will run away, plus no ranged anti tank.

chaos demons-very hit or miss. IG with mystics is an instant win, as are marines with null zone. But can put a hurting on lists that struggle from inability to deal with monstrous creatures. Suffer from the same problem as above to armies-being shoehorned into one or two competitive builds. All below armies have this issue too.

Sisters-Horde of power armor, plus lots of melta and flamer means this is an army that can win big if played right. However they largely lose out in hand to hand.

Blood angels- have never truly seen them played. I will put them here for two reasons though. First they are marines, second they are hand to hand. However I hear they are largely overcosted. I figure they suffer from what all other second tier armies have, except chaos demons.

gak tier:

Necrons-lack of truly effective anti tank. Also the new combat system kills them off. Charge 20 necron warriors, kill more then you lost, watch them run, and sweep. Its happened plenty of times.

Tau- Ranged weapons becoming less effective against tanks really hurt them. As did the whole run move on everyone. Whole codex needs about a 25% reduction in points cost.

Demonhunters- assuming no inducted guard, they are not that good. Largely due to lack of anti tank, as all their anti tank comes from either land raiders or dreadnoughts. One is average at best, the other is pretty good but costs more then its worth shooting wise, and both compete for heavy support slots.

Other:
Dark angels, while largely a second tier army, you are simply better playing marines.

grankobot wrote:

Horst wrote:snickrot's unit cannot have a power klaw... he replaces the nob, and can't take a klaw himself.

The reason why not every ork player is smart enough to do it is because it isn't immediately obvious how. You can attach dok grotsnik to the unit and still use their wonky outflanking rule.

It gives the squad a hidden power klaw and FNP. Nasty combo.

Not in any competitive setting that uses INAT you can't. RAW allowing it aside.

Orks are still in my opinion the best army but people are horribly obsessed with Nob Bikers.

I'd rather face nob bikers than battlewagon spam with KFF mech.


You have not faced frustating having to face 6 to 7 battlewagons w/ 3 squads of Nobs driving across the field with a 4+ invulnerable.

Hollismason wrote:Orks are still in my opinion the best army but people are horribly obsessed with Nob Bikers.

I'd rather face nob bikers than battlewagon spam with KFF mech.


You have not faced frustating having to face 6 to 7 battlewagons w/ 3 squads of Nobs driving across the field with a 4+ invulnerable.

This a thousand times. My marines are equipped with the specific goal of dealing with nobs. 2 vindis, thunderfire for lootas, 5 hammers+lysander in a raider. They are not easy to deal with if you are not equipped to kick them around. And they have so many builds, hand to hand in wagons with KFF, which IMO makes them much tougher then raiders at range. Plus nobs which are one of the best hand to hand units in the game, and you run into some serious problems. But a list kitted up to fight those guys will lose out to anyone running 45 lootas+120 boyz at you.

Yeah its still a fantastic army. People are just now moving away from the whole Nob Biker and making more balanced numbers and shooting lists.

People go on and on about mechanized list

A Nob Squad w/ Battlewagon usually runs 350 to 370


The army is just really really good at having a infinite lit almost of amazing lists.

Yes, for literally half the points you get a roughly the same toughness, just without the gimicks. Which is what they are. Magic is not interesting if you know how the trick works.

I know a guy who tears up all the tournaments with an SM army. He calls it "The army that kills everything within 24 inches."

Literally anything that comes close dies.

Ill take 2 Nob Squads on Bikes vvs. 30 Nobs w/ 3 Battlewagons any day of the week.

edit:
The ork players I have played regularly against have switched out for 2 Nob Squads in battlewagons and 9 Wartraks along w/ 9 Killa Kans. I hope you enjoy dealing with 22 vehicles with a 4+ invulnerable save firing off 26 Missiles a turn as it advances.

Oh wait everything is in H t H on the second turn.

Until you run into an IG army with lots of pie plates, or marine multi hammer squad raider rush. Then those 2 nob squads are dead.

Very rock paper scissors. I find beat stick units work best with only one in the list.

The Ork army can have Rock, Paper, Scissors in every damn army

edit:
Oh and that list 2 nobs in Battle Wagons 9 wartraks and 9 Kans is 1300 points

You still have points left over in 2000 to take 700 points of just absolute HORDE.

grankobot wrote:Armies that don't:

Necrons
Tyranids
Orks
Demons

Three of the four down! I knew I should have started up Orks as my next army instead of Tau...

Eidolon wrote:
Top tier: Largely what makes an army top tier is the age of its codex. The increase of toughness in vehicles coupled with the troops only scoring bs of 5th edition has made the game much more hateful to older codexs. They normally pay more for their weapons then newer lists, and dont have the cheap troops of new dexs.

Space wolves-ability to handle almost anything, almost all units have multiple rolls to play.

Space marines-to a similar extent. They can design lists that have an answer to everything, but require a decent amount of skill to work. Can also design lists that run high in the durr hurr scale, such as multiple raider TH/SS rush.

Chaos-largely the 2 prince, plague/oblit lists. Same as marines, generally less numbers but more elite and tougher/harder hitting per unit.

Orks-dirt cheap troops, who are effective in hand to hand. Plus some of the best hand to hand in the game in the form of nob squads. They can throw a lot of shots too. The real strength of the orks though is sheer numbers. Point, Waaaagh, win, 180 dudes in 2000 points is downright hateful. Who cares if they cant deal with raiders, they will kill everything else, and that raider will not make its points back.

Guard-Lots of cheap troops, lots of shots, lots and lots of high strength shots.

Second tier: These are armies that can do alright if played very well, but generally arent as competitive as other lists. Largely due to being outdated. Tend to pay more for the same thing in new dex. Compare a twin linked bright lance serpent to a vendetta or valkyrie.

Eldar-Once the kings of 40k, they have been knocked down. The overcosting of our transports compared to new dexs, coupled with largely weak/overpriced troops has dropped this dex down in power by a lot. In addition our armies often lose out in the massacre system, because we simply cannot bring the sheer numbers of units to overwhelm our opponents. Can still do well, but generally require much more finesse then your opponent to win with.

Dark eldar-same boat as eldar. While better in objective missions, they lose out hard in kill points. Also in need of a new codex.

Nids-generally are not as strong as they were, troops only scoring means kill the tyrants and troops will run away, plus no ranged anti tank.

chaos demons-very hit or miss. IG with mystics is an instant win, as are marines with null zone. But can put a hurting on lists that struggle from inability to deal with monstrous creatures. Suffer from the same problem as above to armies-being shoehorned into one or two competitive builds. All below armies have this issue too.

Sisters-Horde of power armor, plus lots of melta and flamer means this is an army that can win big if played right. However they largely lose out in hand to hand.

Blood angels- have never truly seen them played. I will put them here for two reasons though. First they are marines, second they are hand to hand. However I hear they are largely overcosted. I figure they suffer from what all other second tier armies have, except chaos demons.

gak tier:

Necrons-lack of truly effective anti tank. Also the new combat system kills them off. Charge 20 necron warriors, kill more then you lost, watch them run, and sweep. Its happened plenty of times.

Tau- Ranged weapons becoming less effective against tanks really hurt them. As did the whole run move on everyone. Whole codex needs about a 25% reduction in points cost.

Demonhunters- assuming no inducted guard, they are not that good. Largely due to lack of anti tank, as all their anti tank comes from either land raiders or dreadnoughts. One is average at best, the other is pretty good but costs more then its worth shooting wise, and both compete for heavy support slots.

Other:
Dark angels, while largely a second tier army, you are simply better playing marines.

Damn good; and damn right too.