Armorcast, I'm dissapointed in you.

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**jamsessionein**

I just posted this up on The Warforge, and I wanted to put it here as well because I don't think I'm the only one they've pawned this crap off on.

So, I'm a dissapointed.

I recently purchased one of Armorcast's "Fuel Air Missiles" in the hopes that I could use it as the basis for an Ork Pulsa Rokkit for Apocalypse. It seemed pretty well suited for it from the picture - it's got a mean face that is, according to their web site, "scribed on the missile body for your painting pleasure", and it's just generally a big, chunky, ramshackle looking piece of hardware that is perfectly suited to be an Orky weapon.

Unfortunately, the reality of the product is vastly, vastly different than their advertisement. Here's some pictures of the model taken pretty much immediately out of the package, without any tinkering.

At first blush, it looks okay. The launching stand seems decent enough, and the detail is at least clean, although there's some pretty obvious flashing that needs to be removed. However, close examination very quickly reveals that the rocket itself is in absolutely miserable shape.

The 'scribed on' detail is nonexistent, outside of one poorly cast eye-lump on one side of the rocket. The wiring and mechanical bits on the back are extremely dissapointing, as it's one of the bits Armorcast did not really display in their preview pictures at all - for reasons which are now becoming apparent.

I like to consider myself a reasonably competent modeller. I can patch holes, I can fix mold lines, I can clean resin up. But the state this rocket is in is simply unreasonable - what wires aren't miscast are covered in flashing 2-3 millimeters thick and pitted with air bubble holes. I bought this product to use as the base for a conversion - basically, to save myself the effort of making the underlying structure - but looking at it now, it'd take more time and effort for me to clean, fix, and repair what they sold me, rather than making my own from scratch. The quality of the cast is what I would consider barely passable for use as terrain, and that's only if you're burying it under ballast and giving it a quick drybrush; there's certainly no "painting pleasure" to be had here.

I had, in past, bought some Armorcast terrain features that shared a number of the flaws I see present on this piece. In those instances, I was willing to give Armorcast the benefit of the doubt, simply because it was a terrain feature (specifically, a barricade) and I figured I probably just got a fluke. However, I'm sure now that this isn't the case - I'm positive that the general quality control at Armorcast is asleep at the wheel.

I can't, in good conscience, recommend anyone else buy these things because I know for a fact that the casts they're going to be putting out aren't going to get any better. How? Well, simply put, there's pieces of the mold stuck in the tight crevasses of the model I got, meaning they're tearing the mold apart as they're using it. This will manifest on models that are cast later as weird, misshapen resin blobs on the models they make. This isn't even a chance thing - there's a whole thread on the Armorcast forums discussing how to remove bits of their molds that are stuck to the model!

Shame on you, Armorcast. The guys at D6 Hobbies put out superior casts with a garage set-up, and you run a whole business around the production of these shoddy copies.

**Polonius**

Have you tried contacting anybody at Armorcast about this? I know the guys, and I'll talk to them about their QA. I know that production has gone up, and they've brought in some new guys to do some casting, but they should have their quality stay high.

**jamsessionein**

I dropped them an e-mail after I got the product, but as I said, I don't see the casts improving if they send me a replacement, as they're tearing their molds to get these things out.

**privateer4hire**

This reminds me of when my friends put me in front of a Bose speaker with my tin ear. I just can't tell that much difference. Most of the stuff I order from various mfrs is not that much removed from these casts. Again, I'm not winning any Golden Demons so I'm probably just not seeing what a finer trained/naturally talented eye can see.

**Grot 6**

LMAO!!!!

That was a generic missle. If you don't want it, send it to me and I will turn it into something that you will use as your "Pulsa".

Not only can I square that away, I can assure you that you won't cry about something as petty again.

That "Face" is painted on, I have to admit though- The wording sucks. Scribed means drawn on, there is nothing in that site saying that the face is molded in there.

That Missle is cool. File down the mold lines, Fill in the air bubbles with miliput, and get to painting.

I have a lot of this armorcast stuff. They use a rougher resin then forgeworld, and I say to tell the truth that it is more durable then its forgeworld counterpart, and quite a bit cheaper.

Nothing needle files, fine sand paper, and a little miliput can't cure.

**CT GAMER**

I was thinking of buying the mega cannon and the other large cannon for use with my orks...

**JohnHwangDD**

It's resin, what did you expect?

**jamsessionein**

Grot 6 wrote:LMAO!!!!

That was a generic missle. If you don't want it, send it to me and I will turn it into something that you will use as your "Pulsa".

Not only can I square that away, I can assure you that you won't cry about something as petty again.

That "Face" is painted on, I have to admit though- The wording sucks. Scribed means drawn on, there is nothing in that site saying that the face is molded in there.

That Missle is cool. File down the mold lines, Fill in the air bubbles with miliput, and get to painting.

I have a lot of this armorcast stuff. They use a rougher resin then forgeworld, and I say to tell the truth that it is more durable then its forgeworld counterpart, and quite a bit cheaper.

Nothing needle files, fine sand paper, and a little miliput can't cure.

You give me the ten bucks I spent on it and it's yours. I bought this to save time; I figured it'd be an effective base to convert from. What they sold me would take more time to clean up and make presentable than it would to make my own from scratch, due entirely to their awful casting. I'm glad your standards are low enough that this wouldn't bother you.

Also, regarding 'scribed':

(Engineering / Tools) to score a line on (a surface) with a pointed instrument, as in metalworking.

I have no idea where you get the idea that this means painted on. Micromark sells scribing tools specifically for scoring plastic. Unless you paint with a metal hook, I think you misunderstand the word.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's resin, what did you expect?

For comparison, the resin parts I've bought from MicroArtsStudios and Maxmini.Eu have been flawless every time. I can get better casts than what Armorcast sells with my garage set-up; that they do this as a business and offer such low quality is disturbing.

CT GAMER wrote:I was thinking of buying the mega cannon and the other large cannon for use with my orks...

I owned this, and sold it before I got around to putting it on an ork vehicle. The one I had was still a mess, but not as hard to clean up as this rocket, for sure.

**JohnHwangDD**

How much would Maxmini or MicroArt have charged for similar model? Pay more for better quality resin & casting?

**Sidstyler**

Personally I don't think he's being all that "petty", the website does in fact specifically mention that face detail as if it's an interesting part of the model "for your painting pleasure", which is obviously absent (and even kinda looks painted on in the picture on the site). That's false advertising.

The cast does indeed look pretty bad, and like Ein said, when you've got parts of the mold sticking to the model that's not really a good thing. The back of the rocket also looks pretty strange to me...the wire detail doesn't match what they have pictured, and I have no idea what those huge bubbles are supposed to be.

**MajorTom11**

Sidstyler wrote:Personally I don't think he's being all that "petty", the website does in fact specifically mention that face detail as if it's an interesting part of the model "for your painting pleasure", which is obviously absent (and even kinda looks painted on in the picture on the site). That's false advertising.

Gotta say I agree here. Scribe most definetly means scored in detail, when I read it it was perfectly clear too... What they basically wrote was 'buy our paint by numbers book with awesome pictures to color in!'

Then they sent this dude a blank piece of paper for his painting pleasure lol.

**wilsmire**

@ jamsessionein

When I looked up scribed I got this http://www.answers.com/topic/scribe

**Sidstyler**

wilsmire wrote:@ jamsessionein

When I looked up scribed I got this http://www.answers.com/topic/scribe

To form letters, characters, or words on a surface with an instrument

In cartography, a method of preparing a map or chart by cutting the lines into a prepared coating.

**Ouze**

I ordered a howitzer from Armorcast for converting, and had pretty much exactly the same experience - the piece was a huge mess. Tons of air bubble holes. misshapen lumps, and heavy, heavy flash everywhere. Tons of work with greenstuff and a dremel too, and even then, it didn't look that great. I never contacted them because it was only $9 and I had ordered a ton of other things elsewhere that came on the same day, hence muting the irritation, but I certainly did not get anything else from them either and they had things I liked. The quality in the pictures was definitely not what came in the mail.

**Howard A Treesong**

I've never bought anything from Armorcast, but from my experiance of things at years worth of wargames shows this seems a fairly common quality for a resin item that large costing $10. It's a bit on the rough side admittedly but I've coped with worse. Perhaps people expect better these days and I'm living in the past, but Verlinden quality models you won't be getting.

**chromedog**

The only thing I have from AC is a Vulture battlemech.

I never had any of the issues that the FW victims at my club seem to have (but I gave up on FW with the resin abortion that was the Valkyrie).

**Ouze**

Howard A Treesong wrote:I've never bought anything from Armorcast, but from my experiance of things at years worth of wargames shows this seems a fairly common quality for a resin item that large costing $10. It's a bit on the rough side admittedly but I've coped with worse. Perhaps people expect better these days and I'm living in the past, but Verlinden quality models you won't be getting.

I'd say that with miniatures, there are 4 points on the model quality scale:

1.) Item exactly as pictured right out of the box (uncommon)
2.) Item a little rough, but can be made to look as pictured with some basic modelling skills and tools such as files/putty (common)
3.) Item is very rough and will take lengthy, extensive cleaning up to get a the pictured look (uncommon)
4.) Item is a misshapen mass that only vaguely resembles the advertised, pictured contents. (rare, depending on who you shop with)

Historical precedents notwithstanding, I'd expect the quality seen in the photographs, or a reasonable facsimile thereof. I don't care what other companies have done in the past or are doing now, or that $10 might not be a lot of money compared to... anything else. I pay you for a product, I want something in category 1. If it's a miniature, I'd expect and be happy with category 1 or 2. The armorcast model I got, in similar condition to the poster's model, was category 3. That whole business with the scribed on face strays right into category 4 - if you're a quality company, there is no need to imply that details are engraved on and use varying definitions of the word "scribed" to explain why a strongly implied feature is not actually present... and I'd argue it wasn't even implied, it was stated.

Like I posted earlier, I was dissatisfied but eh, it was 10 dollars. I guess I'm more irked at the attempts to rationalize and accept mediocrity than I was about a model I got a year ago and still have yet to build, other then extensive cleanup.

**JohnHwangDD**

See how spoiled we've been by GW quality control?

Category 3 describes a lot of non-GW stuff, resin in particular.

**Pipboy101**

Armorcast metal bases can at times have poor quality but I have never had any problem with the customer service. I got a couple of bases that the detail was of poor quality and then contacted me. They replaced my entire order and also added in some 40mm bases to boot. I would contact armorcast about your issue and they should fix it in no time.

I have never had any issues with their resin products and all have had excellent detail for the price. I found them more for converting and mass quality terrain.

**SagesStone**

The face part of the mold probably went with the first batch of them

**Ouze**

I wouldn't say I'm a longtime wargamer by any stretch, but the nearly all of the things I've gotten over the last 2 years or so have been between category 1 and 2. The only stuff i've gotten that was category 3 was really armorcast and forgeworld.

**Sidstyler**

Category 3 describes a lot of non-GW stuff, resin in particular.

Does Forge World count as GW stuff? Because from what I've heard and experienced myself a lot of their casts end up comfortably in category 3.

Personally I think they should work on doing better casts, considering they charge about a hundred thousand dollars for every single model they produce.

**Howard A Treesong**

Ouze wrote:Like I posted earlier, I was dissatisfied but eh, it was 10 dollars. I guess I'm more irked at the attempts to rationalize and accept mediocrity than I was about a model I got a year ago and still have yet to build, other then extensive cleanup.

Mediocrity is common within the hobby if you hold GW as the standard. GW stuff, plastic and metal in particular, is generally of a high quality. Ignoring the price of their stuff, they are among the best companies for product quality across their ranges, there are a few stinkers but mostly it's good. But they are a highstreet presence and pride themselves on offering a high quality product that lets you start playing quickly, and they target people who have not played games or made models before.

The further you go from the highstreet the more rough and ready things get as the scale of operation diminishes and you get deeper into the area of the hobby reserved for specialists not your highstreet shopper. Eventually you get down to the stuff cast in people's kitchens and sold in paper bags, it's a place you only tread through desperation for a particular model. You would not expect to pick up a resin kit of the quality pictured from a chain store retailer as GW is. You'd be hard pressed to even see a resin kit in a GW store because resin is an unfriendly modelling material which doesn't fit their target highstreet market. Resin has always been something specialised and is more labour intensive, having to put in the hours is expected. The only naughty bit is that the kit doesn't appear to have the face scribed on which is a clear advertising point. I'd agree that the kit shown in this thread is poor, but it was $10, that's about £6 to us British folk. That's f- all in real terms, I mean what do people expect?

**jamsessionein**

Look, I understand that the model was $10, but if you show me a picture of something and tell me that's the price, I'm still expecting to get the thing that was advertised. Rationalizing it as "well, you should have spent more, duh!" is ridiculous.

I'm not even irked about the lack of the face so much as the fact that any detailing that might be on this rocket is an absolute nightmare. Parts of the tail fins literally look like they've melted.

My biggest issue here is not specific to this model. It's that this model is just another demonstration that Armorcast is full of crap. As some posters have said, you can certainly contact Armorcast, and I have, to try and demand satisfaction and complain about the model they've sold, but it's not going to get any better because they're tearing their molds apart trying to get these casts done. Any subsequent casts will be even more mangled than the one I got.

**Ouze**

Perhaps I should clarify, since I almost completely agree with you but now see it doesn't appear that way. I agree that I don't expect GWS level production for a model that costs 20% of the price - GWS is overpriced, but not that overpriced, and there is an element of "you get what you pay for". Hence why I never posted anything previous to it coming up in a discussion anyway that specifically discussed Armorcast quality. Now, I reasoned, it would be helpful for other people considering getting models from them in the future - they're category 3 - which isn't a problem in and of itself. You might only have a category 3 budget, or category 3 interest.

My issue with what this particular person experience was that they did not present a fair depiction of their product. A buyer cannot make an educated purchase if they omit detail shots that would reveal their category 3 casting, such as how any rear shots were omitted. I have in the past and will in the future choose to buy a model if I knew it took lots of work to clean up if the price or my dedication were low. This guy got robbed of his opportunity to make that educated decision for himself - I don't buy that because pictures of the rear were omitted, he should have assumed the worst. As others have said, the category 4 stuff is the real problem - if the face isn't part of the model, it really should not have been presented in such a way as to imply that it was.

Sorry so typative, I'm at work and it's slow.

edit - this was in response to Howard A Treesong. - quotefail, all me

**Pipboy101**

I just looked at the picture of the rocket on the armorcast site and it is hard to tell where they scribed the face detail on the model. It looks more like free hand to me. But since you only ordered one model it could have been just been a miscast. I would just contact their customer service.

**Howard A Treesong**

Ouze wrote:My issue with what this particular person experience was that they did not present a fair depiction of their product. A buyer cannot make an educated purchase if they omit detail shots that would reveal their category 3 casting, such as how any rear shots were omitted. I have in the past and will in the future choose to buy a model if I knew it took lots of work to clean up if the price or my dedication were low. This guy got robbed of his opportunity to make that educated decision for himself - I don't buy that because pictures of the rear were omitted, he should have assumed the worst. As others have said, the category 4 stuff is the real problem - if the face isn't part of the model, it really should not have been presented in such a way as to imply that it was.

I think we're more or less agreeing. But this does highlight one of the risks of buying online, you don't see the actual product, you are getting only a depiction of it. There's always a possibility for it to have problems that can't be seen from a single photo. The quality of GW studio painting disguises the occasional crude area in their own castings as well. I'd have thought that in this case, for the price, you'd be expecting to get something that is going to require work even though your attention is not drawn to it in the photo. You can also get misscast pieces through the post too, something that could be avoided if buying in person. The reason I prefer not to buy action figures online is because you invariably get ones which are boss eyed. Anyway, I'd say that in the wider hobby, catagory 3 stuff is fairly widespread.

**Ouze**

I had to google "boss-eyed".

**Howard A Treesong**

Ouze wrote:I had to google "boss-eyed".

Sorry, I mean cross-eyed, or generally squiffy eyes. I like my action figures to have both eyes looking the same direction.

**JohnHwangDD**

People, resin has always been a rather difficult material. Casting defects are par for the course, and resurfacing has always been the norm for as long as I can remember.

For resin to get to category 2 (or better), you need to be prepared to spend outrageous sums of money.

Resin isn't plastic. Never has been, never will be. It's inherent in the material and the process.