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Just wondering, noted the blood angels heavy weaps for Dev squads are actually cheaper so...? If an all assault marine army pays less for long range support, just what on earth is better about standard marines?

I would say just off the top of my head the adaptability of ordinary marines. Things such as thunderfire cannons are great for slowing down assualt armies like orks and 'nids and the special characters such as vulkan with his twin linked multi meltas and the like can prove invaluable in certain situations. Although with out a doubt your point still stands.

Biker troops.
etc.
etc.
Blah,
Maybe 3-4 items more, but the hell, hasn't this been done to frakk already?

I wasn't pleased when I saw that the BA codex has Vanguard and Sternguard vets (mainly because I thought those were unique bits with the standard Marine codex.)

Blood Angels squads have access to combat squads, but they do not have access to "chapter tactics" [If I'm wrong please correct me, because I only got to see the dex for like 5 minutes]. Overall the blood angels will be much better for assault, but for a shooty, tactically flexible army, the standard marines will still have an advantage.

My particular play style (mechanized, balanced towards shooting over assault) makes heavy use of firepower and mobility. I use chapter tactics with my combat squads to keep them out of assaults.

If you want to do an assault oriented force, you're going to want to play BA or Space Wolves, but if you're going for tactical flexibility and firepower in throughout the army, standard Marines are still very good.

It's really up to what you are comfortable with running in your playstyle.

I don't think people are going to jump to blood angels just to use Dev squads, sure the dev squads are pretty good, but predators are cheaper in points and fast. SW Long Fangs do it better than either army in terms of cheap heavy weapons and being able to split fire. I personally prefer Devs because of the ability to add ablative wounds.

Combat tactics you never have to worry about not having.
Vulkan, Lysander.
Way less things competing for Elite spots.
Thunderfire cannons
Bike troops
Ironclads

Vulkan.
MM Bunkers.
Biker armies if that's your thing.
Points/slot-efficient Hammernators.

if that's your thing

Que? You do not approve of the rediculous awesomeness that is choppers in the 40K universe?

Sanctjud wrote:

if that's your thing

Que? You do not approve of the rediculous awesomeness that is choppers in the 40K universe?

It's not my thing, but I'm not saying that you shouldn't go for it

Yea id say Ironclads, chapter tactics, landspeeder storm and 12 slots in a drop pod.

There may be some small reasons, but overall I don't see any advantages, I stopped playing Vanilla marines completely after the new BA codex came out. At least it gives me more time to spend on my Boyz.

Vanilla Marines taste better with ice cream.

I'll probably switch between codexes depending on what I want to play. But I do expect to spend the majority of my time playing vanilla because of TFC, Ironclads and scoring bikers

Yea, I have an all marine biker army, so I only have two choices at the moment.

But if the Biker covering assalut marines FNP all round looks good enough points wise, I might bite the bullet and try that out.

Ostrakon wrote:Way less things competing for Elite spots.

Less choice is a good thing?

So, bikes in troop slots, TFC, Ironclad dreds. Seems fairly minimal benefits when compared to what you get from all your rhino tanks being fast, your LR full of TH/SS termies Deep Striking, Troop slot dreds, cheaper heavy weapons, better Deep Strike, StormRavens.

And as to special characters, Mephiston, rapist of carnifexes and wearer of bloodthirsters as glove puppets.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:And as to special characters, Mephiston, rapist of carnifexes and wearer of bloodthirsters as glove puppets.

Sigged. (Or I would if not for the darn 150 px limit)

You've got all the SM vs. BA down, but what about Wolves? There are some other differences there.

Good bikes and assault marines (Since Wolves get Blood Claws there)
Transport cap 10 Land Raiders (So no taking 5 TWG and a Terminator HQ in a single LR, which wouldn't matter if not for the fact that they need 5 to take that Ass. Can.)
TFC
Veterans (Vanguard/Sternguard, though the latter is far more important)
Sergeants (No access to LD9 in squads outside of giving them a WG, which while a good idea, means the squad loses a special weapon...assuming you're not footslogging)
Heavy weapons in Tac Marine squads (More viable to sit on a point - Wolves have no long range firepower outside of 24" bolters in that case)
Combat squads
Viable Assault Terminators (40 points a model for Vanilla, 68 for TWG)
Ironclads

So, vanilla marines actually do have quite a fair number of advantages over specialty marines. Granted, this is just saying everything the vanilla marines have that the Wolves don't, and not the other way around. Wolves do have a lot of special things that the vanilla marines don't. (4 HQ slots and 6 SCs, 2 special weapons in 10-man squads of GHs, counter-attack across the board, bolter/bolt pistol/chainsword troops...)

VUlkan + a bunch of things no one takes on a regular basis.. Without vulkan there would be little reason to use SM for functional reasons

Furioso > ironclad and fast vehicles > thunderfires

Rhinos, Razorbacks, Whirlwinds, and vindicators cost more for BA's.

Because they are fast and well worth the extra cost.

SM Land Raiders hold 12, as do their Drop Pods.

That's about it

Sanctjud wrote:Because they are fast and well worth the extra cost.

Oh snap, they are!

Yea..much better.

Oh yea... non-fast rhinos were so last Space Wolf dex.

18" movement Rhinos for delivery.
12" moving Razorbacks and shooting.
12" moving Vindi and shooting.
12" moving WW and shooting.
18" moving LR for delivery (who needs deepstrike?)
12" moving LR shooting 2 main weapons (cause of Machine Spirit)...(OH SNAP, 12" moving redeemer shooting two targets...)
6" moving LR and shooting everything...MM/TLLCx2 at one target, Hvy bolter at another.
6" moving AC/LC or Dakka Pred and shooting (dawn of war awesome sauce [nightfight sometimes sucks ])

Everything can do a 18" Tank Shock.

Assault squads get to discount their rides by dropping jump packs... so it's not a huge cost for them with respect to Rhinos and Razors.

Edit: GWAR! kills the fun by including real rules

Sanctjud wrote:Oh yea... non-fast rhinos were so last Space Wolf dex.

18" movement Rhinos for delivery.
12" moving Razorbacks and shooting.
12" moving Vindi and shooting.
12" moving WW and shooting.
18" moving LR for delivery (who needs deepstrike?)
12" moving LR shooting 2 main weapons (cause of Machine Spirit)...(OH SNAP, 12" moving redeemer shooting two targets...)
6" moving LR and shooting everything...MM/TLLCx2 at one target, Hvy bolter at another.
6" moving AC/LC or Dakka Pred and shooting (dawn of war awesome sauce [nightfight sometimes sucks ])

Everything can do a 18" Tank Shock.

Assault squads get to discount their rides by dropping jump packs... so it's not a huge cost for them with respect to Rhinos and Razors.

Incorrect. Land Raiders are not fast. Only Rhino Hulls are.

I think the most obvious advantage is you won't be a bandwagon jumper.IMO anyway.

"Hey guys I was looking at the BA codex and I noticed all the changes that made BA stronger than the SM codex fit my playstyle. So I am going to play them now, can I play my Ultramarines as Blood Angels?"

I'm a big fan of Combat Tactics myself, which is a great addition to Combat Squads + And They Shall Know No Fear, whereas The Red Thirst either does nothing or replaces And They Shall Know No Fear.

Fearless, Feel No Pain, and Furious Charge are great when things are going according to plan, but they suck when things aren't going according to plan. No Retreat wounds from Fearless, no bonus for Furious Charge, and usually no armour saves if no Feel No Pain.

Fast is nice, but units can't voluntarily dismount if the vehicle moved Flat Out, and can't assault out of Rhinos. It's great for Predators though. Everything with a useful bonus (i.e. not Land Raiders) costs extra. Lots extra when it's all added up. +15pts for Fast vehicles, 35pt Death Company, and so on. It's a good thing Devastators have cheap weapons, because they wouldn't be able to escape from losing combats.

The annoying thing is that I like this Codex, but I'm having a real hard time adapting my Blood Angels to it. I think I might just stick with the Codex Space Marines.

Nurglitch wrote:The annoying thing is that I like this Codex, but I'm having a real hard time adapting my Blood Angels to it. I think I might just stick with the Codex Space Marines.

I *want* to like this Codex, and am planing to extend my SM to play as BA, but it's looking like I'm going to need a while with it to figure out what I'm going to be playing, aside from extra AMs with JPs as Troops.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Just wondering, noted the blood angels heavy weaps for Dev squads are actually cheaper so...? If an all assault marine army pays less for long range support, just what on earth is better about standard marines?

For myself, the major appeal of the C:SM codex is the ability to build a very enjoyable (to me), and fluffy, mech saturation shooty list (Las/plas razorbacks, rifleman dreads, dakka preds, mm/hf speeders), the flexibility to support several list styles (vulkan lists, mech sauturation lists, bike lists, sternguard lists, shrike lists, etc.), and the opportunity to paint the scheme of a chapter who's fluff I really like (the Blood Ravens).

While you can make a very effective (and gratuitously unfluffy) mech saturation list with Space Wolves, the list has much less unit variety, is much more static, and of course is an SW army and I personally have zero love for the SW fluff or colour scheme.

The BA are much more oriented towards being played as an assault army, either in massed jump pack form, or in a mixed jp/mech form. It's a great army if you want a power armoured assault army, but I already play BT so I didn't want a second assaulty marine army.

@Amplified:
There's no such thing as unfluffy any more.
You could take Ultramarines paint scheme and use the Chaos Space Marine rules set...GW endorsed through count as

BT can play the shooting game...Baal, Preds, Assault squad with melta in Razorback spam...

If you want a shooty army go with IG or to a lesser extent Tau or Necrons.
You could focus on the shooty aspect of the Vanilla Marines, but Assault Squads with Double melta in a fast rhino will trump that single hvy weapon IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA They also have tactical squads/sternguard too if that floats your boat.

Sanctjud:

Sooooo, how much better at holding objective than a Tactical squad are those Assault Squads going to be?

They'll have an advantage over the Tactical Squads at capturing objectives, and at assaulting the enemy, but they'll be at a disadvantage holding the objectives and being assaulted by the enemy. Being assaulted by an enemy Dreadnought is going to go terribly for them.

I've found that Chaos Space Marines with two Melta Guns have a problem with holding objectives, and they have Bolters to shoot at people, and still have problems with armour standing off 13"+ and shelling my progenoids off.

The idea of small squads with 2 meltas are to be reactionary when needed. Versus Dreads and the sort you'll most likely get the drop on it, they are in or behind the wreck of the Razorback, assumed.

If a dread marches into a Tactical or Assault squad it doesn't really matter, the only thing that matters is if there is a fist at that point, if there is, the Tactical pulls ahead for having more members for more kraks and bodies to protect the fist...but this only leads into the back and forth discussion of Fists in Tacticals in the first place.

Well, there are other elements to the list.
What if the Razorback is moving 12" drop off to get the drop on a close by dread, while the Lascannon on top is there for back up should they fail, if they don't fail it can target something else... or it has other weapons to do other jobs on the move.

Then there's the other elements who are supposed to engage the enemy models that the Assault Squad in Razor is not supposed to.