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L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Shield, Axe of Men, Gouge Tusks, Uncanny Senses = 254 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, The Beast Banner, Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon = 195
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, Hunting Spear, Additional Hand Weapon = 162

C: 23 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 199 (6X4) (Bray Shaman)
C: 24 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 207 (6X4)
C: 24 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 207 (6X4) *Might be Ambushing, dependent upon opponent*
C: 12 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6X2) (Ambushing)
C: 10 Ungor Raiders – Musician = 63
C: 5 Ungor Raiders = 30 (Ambush)

S: 19 Bestigors – Musician, Standard, Manbane Standard = 281 (Beastlord & BSB) (7x3)

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

The Bray Shaman is taking Lore of the Beasts for general ass-kickery and support.

Bestigors are the anvil of my list (if there can be such a thing in a beastmen list, this is it) supported by my two Gor blocks, while the other gor block will probably ambush the majority of the time.

Ungors are just there to hunt warmachines.

Cygor for anti-magic and being the hulk incarnate.

Jabberslythe to protect my flanks and such, not bad in combat either.

Thoughts?

Similar to my bestistar list, but instead of chariots you've got a LOT more real core going on, less magic and double rare monsters. Nice to see all the gors, I think there's possibility there myself, especially with the beastlord's Ld9 for hatred boosting.

On your bestistar, I still like mine better, or at least the characters. Axe of Men seems awesome, but I know that if I ever see a beastlord with that weapon I will never feed it a character, meaning it remains a very expensive KB. Mangelder on the other hand gives the unit total terror & fear immunity (though its offensive effect is somewhat lame). My beast banner BSB has gnarled hide + shield for a sexy 1+ save, which I think is 15 points well spent. The manbane standard is nice, but I like warbanner for the chance of actually winning in the first place. -1LD is only so useful if you're losing combat

I wish I had the balls to buy and build ~90 gors, but unfortunately if I do beasts it's going to need to be fairly trim ...

- Salvage

Hm, I see.

L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Shield, Axe of Men, Gouge Tusks, Uncanny Senses = 254 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, The Beast Banner, Heavy Armour, Shield, Great Weapon, Gnarled Hide = 210
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, Hunting Spear, Additional Hand Weapon = 162

C: 23 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 199 (6X4) (Bray Shaman)
C: 24 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 207 (6X4)
C: 24 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 207 (6X4) *Might be Ambushing, dependent upon opponent*
C: 12 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6X2) (Ambushing)
C: 9 Ungor Raiders – Musician = 57
C: 5 Ungor Raiders = 30 (Ambush)

S: 19 Bestigors – Musician, Standard, Warbanner = 271 (Beastlord & BSB) (7x3)

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

Dropped Manbane, got Warbanner. Dropped an ungor raider, got Gnarled Hide on the BSB.

I still like the Axe of Men, if he won't ever engage my unit with a unit of his that has a champion/character, then he won't be engaging me in CC very much. If he engages my Gor blocks, the bestigors will just flank charge them. I'll playtest it and see how it goes, though Mangelder is tempting.

Why is the Blackened Plate popular? It's heavy armour, and the ward save's only work against flaming attacks. Doesn't seem very effective to me.

Yeah, at first, I didn't want a horde-esque beastmen army, but I know that just taking 6-7 units of 12 Gors would be ineffective.

Thanks for your critique, Salvage ^.^

I think blackened plate has some popularity because people try to get flaming attacks in their armies to deal with regenerating targets.

When I played against a proxy beast list, he took it, but he was kind of tailoring, as he knew I probably had flaming war machines. Not sure how worth it the plate is against all comers. Basically, it can really help against Dwarfs, Bloodthirsters, and VC who take the spike or hellfire banner and it will discourage several spell decks from being used.

RZ

I have to say I don't particularly like Bestigors myself their a brilliant fluff unit but the fact they c an't take shields annoys me. I'd be tempted to take either Ungor or Dogs for some baiting goodness in this list myself.

The Beastmen army book was generally left out in the Magic Items/Banners, etc department. We have 4 banners, one of which is useless, and some of are magic weapons are so unreliable that they're no better than a great weapon (looking at you everbleed...)

The thing with beastmen is, we have no real "anvils", all we have is a bunch of hammers. Bestigors is the closest to an anvil unit as you can get, and I just love their fluff and rules. Yeah, they probably should have given us the option to give them shields for +1 PPM

I can see this list winning, sure, its not super-competitive, but I didn't want to just roflroll some guys with a minotaur list, and then have no chance against a different list.

Appreciate all the critique.

Karon wrote:L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Enchanted Shield, Gnarled Hide = 246 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 178
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, Hunting Spear, Additional Hand Weapon = 161

C: 20 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 185 (7X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 183 (7X3)
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 183 (7X3) *Might be Ambushing, dependent upon opponent*
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, standard = 183 (7X3) (Ambushing)

S: 19 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 283 (Beastlord & BSB) (7x3)
S: 7 Harpies - Scouts = 98

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

2250 Points

I basically re-thought a few thinks, and wanted to get as many attacks as possible, so I arranged the Gors 7x3.

Re-read some of the item descriptions, Bestistar is much more resillient to shooting now because of the Pelt of the Shadowgave

Dropped Beast Banner, too many points.

Dropped Axe of Men, made the Beastlord have a sexy +1 save. Figured the BSB would be alright with the Pelt.\

Added some champions to prevent unwanted challenges (not likely)

Added harpies (basically, I'll just use leftover ungors from the battalion boxes and attach some gargoyle wings or something)

Better? Worse? Thoughts?

So I assume no comments is that everyone is scared of how terribly powerful my list is, yes?

A simple "Yeah, looks good" would keep my mind at ease, and prompt my $300 dollar purchase.

needs more cowbell.

Really?

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you Karon. Let's have a look ...

Karon wrote:L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Enchanted Shield, Gnarled Hide = 246 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 178
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, Hunting Spear, Additional Hand Weapon = 161

C: 20 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 185 (7X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 183 (7X3)
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 183 (7X3) *Might be Ambushing, dependent upon opponent*
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, standard = 183 (7X3) (Ambushing)

S: 19 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 283 (Beastlord & BSB) (7x3)
S: 7 Harpies - Scouts = 98

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

2250 Points

Beastlord > Nice build! I like this guy a lot, 4 S8 attaks backed up by 3 T5 1+ wounds is pretty beastly and much improved over the Axe of KB

BSB > Another big improvement IMO, you needed some kind of item to buff your bestistar with, and a nerf to shooting and magic is nice. My own bestistar went with blackened plate over the shadowgave, but the pelt is indeed more useful against everybody. Also more expensive and offers less protection for the BSB (light armor, right?) but that will just have to be managed.

Bray > Why is he level 2? So he can throw 3 dice into one of two spells? Fair enough. Hunting spear is a good 'un, though remember that it does count as a spear in combat, which means his ahw don't do anything but eat 2 points

Gors! > I'm not 100% convinced that going 7-wide is the best option, but the cool thing about 21 models is that you can go 5-, 6- or 7-wide as your CR and enemy base width allows. That said I think your army is missing chaff in a big way, and your dedicated ambush gors could go 12 gors w/ musician + ahw (101 pts), giving you 84 points (with the bray's ahw) to pick up some diverters, baiters, etc. Warhounds are clearly the best at this, but I still don't trust them in a beast's army because of panic. You might consider 10 ungors w/ musician (53 pts) backed up by 5 warhounds (30 pts) or 5 ungor skirmishers (30 pts), which give you some diverters. Or with some management you could go with 2x 5 warhounds, leaving 24 pts to buy back 3 gors or something else. 4 more dogs too.

Bestis > Yep.

Harpies > Aye. With a couple diverters on the table you should be golden in the junk department.

Monsters > Check. Any idea on what models you're using?

So my main comments:
> Nice beastlord, good call on BSB, bray's ahw is useless.
> You need tactical fodder: cut down your ambusher gors to 12 + musician, consider some ungors & warhounds/ungors or warhounds & warhounds.

Will make for a nice big battleline though, loads of infantry in nice big blocks.

- Salvage

Appreciate it Salvage.

Jabberslythe: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat150115a&prodId=prod1090050

Cygor: I can't find a model for the life of me, so I'm just going to convert a Giant with GS and some repositioning, along with lots of bitz.

I see what your saying about the 21 Gors ambushing, I forget a lot of fundamentals like that: If they're ambushing, they have no reason to be a big unit

How about this:

Karon wrote:L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Enchanted Shield, Gnarled Hide = 246 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon, Shadow Hide = 183
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, Hunting Spear = 159

C: 20 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 185 (7X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 183 (7X3)
C: 21 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 183 (7X3) *Might be Ambushing, dependent upon opponent*
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)

S: 19 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 283 (Beastlord & BSB) (7x3)
S: 5 Harpies - Scouts = 70

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

2249 Points

Alright, I actually dropped two harpies (since when am I going to get 7 into base contact with war-machine crew anyways?) for extra points, and it actually is pretty nice how it worked out.

Dropped the Gors down to 12 w/ musician

Gave my Wargor BSB the Shadow Hide Chaos Gift, had nothing else to spend it on, so why not?

Added two units of 10 Ungors for baiting goodness, and some shielding for my Gors blocks too I suppose.

Thoughts? The level 2 is just for another dispel dice and another power dice, Lore of the Beasts has got a lot of nice spells.

Looks like fun, the only thing is with the ungor's in units of 10 it only takes 3 ranged/magic kills to break them (and potentially other units).

Also upgrading the bray shaman to level two gets you another power dice, but not a dispell dice. Lvl 1/2 casters give 1 and lvl 3/4 casters give 2. So with that list you will still only have 3 dispell dice.

Props for taking a beastlord and not a doombull tho!

My bad on the magic part ^.^, just as well.

Thats just something I have to live with, I'm playing Beastmen, the max LD I can get is 9, and thats what ALL of my units bar the harpies will be testing on, and a re-roll for break test's from the BSB.

Doombulls are pretty awesome, but for the amount of points you put into him, you could get two of my blocks of 21 Gors.

Beastlord wins for being cheap IMO.

Good move, I was going to suggest 2x 10 ungors, but wasn't sure how deep to cut into things for points. Trimming the harpies is a good place to pick up points, well done. And as to the ungors blowing up and panicing your people, I don't think you can worry about that - 5 T3 wounds of hounds is one thing, 10 T3 wounds of ungors is going to be slightly harder for the other dude to pull off. Like you say, LD9 if you need to panic is pretty excellent anyway.

Nice jabber model, mostly because it actually makes ME take terror and insanity tests every time I look at it Pretty hideously sculpted model, but it (somewhat ironically) fits the bill

- Salvage

I know, right? I'm going to add some bitz onto it (and maybe 1-8 more heads around its body with GS) to make it a bit more less-plain.

Thanks again for pulling my army list through the shop, Salvage, helped me a great deal ^.^

You know, I've been thinking, and I'm doubting 7 wide is the best approach.

I was lining some things up w/ units, and really, I'll never get 7 wide 25mm bases into contact with 5, only 6, ever.

So, should I just keep the list as is? Lowering them all down to 18 would give me 64 points, and I have absolutely no idea where I would spend them aside from dropping the hunting spear, and adding in another lvl 2 bray shaman(which is certainly an idea)

Any thoughts?

Two min sized dogs for redirecting, or harpies would be good... I think you should do everything you can to ensure you get the charge... Magic before move in 8th would be a great benefit if it's true an extra Mage might be worth it, but till then that wouldn't be my first option

Dogs will tear apart my Gors panic tests wise, no cigar.

I have harpies, one is enough IMO, I don't think I could reliably place two units of scouting harpies (and they're expensive no matter how you convert them)

Yeah, thinking that the extra bray shaman would be more beneficial than a bolt thrower that probably will only shoot 1-2 times.

Heres the list with the extra bray

Karon wrote:L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Enchanted Shield, Gnarled Hide = 246 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 178
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, AHW = 112
H: Bray Shaman - Level 2, AHW = 112

C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 18 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 159 (6X3) *Might be Ambushing, dependent upon opponent*
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Champion = 111 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)

S: 19 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 283 (Beastlord & BSB) (7x3)
S: 5 Harpies - Scouts = 70

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

2249 Points

6 Power Dice, 4 Dispel Dice

Thoughts? I actually saw that a LOT of my points cost were off, minimally, so its a good thing I came back and had a look.

Yeah, I'm liking this list some more now. Its got a little bit more magic defense, though doesn't go over board, and can throw out some good magic.

Good?

Bad?

Would appreciate some comments.

I love the idea, but your list would have been much better last edition, and I can't see you fareing well while using the ambush aspect :(... If you want something moderatly constructive your ambushing unit needs to lose a man

I play Beastmen as well and I've had only a little bit of testing so please bear with me as I do my damndest to put in my two cents for whatever the exchange rate is for new people compared to more experienced players. *Ahem*

The Beastlord is just fine as he is. Angry, stompy, good leadership for nearby units and getting some Hatred in.

Wargor: Again, fine choices. Dread has pretty much surmised this.

On the Bray Shamans: I understand you wanting to keep them cheap, I truly do. Having two level 2's definitely helps in the magic casting department and dedicating one to scroll caddying isn't always the way to go. That being said, do you tend to run into alot of arcane item overhaul and do you plan on having your shamans be more or less on their own with their respective units or are you keeping everything close-knit? The reason I'm asking is because I'm a HUGE fan of the Stone of Spite. It will snatch Dispel Scrolls or dice as the day is long and for 25 points it's almost a scroll in and of itself. Blowing up arcane items is hilarious when an opponent's champion is left as a gib with a stick and a bucket on his head. Personal opinion, maybe something to look into.

On the Gors: 6x3 to me is a good way to go especially with your Shamans rolling around. Full command helps tremendously since rank bonuses depending on what you end up charging into or being charged by is going to be severely lacking.

The Ungors: Meh, they're fine. They're going to deal with some things, attract other things, and more or less be meat to the grinder. Still good stuff.

The Bestistar: If 7x3 is not the way to go with core, then should it be for these guys too? Either way, they're loud, proud, and very angry. I love to see these guys on the board.

Harpies: Hooray for mobile speedbumps.

Cygor and Jabberslythe: They're on the field...'nuff said.

Overall I like the list. I would just like to see the Shaman(s) with some goodies, that's a personal opinion. Otherwise I wish you well.

Yeah, ungors are pretty much for baiting and such, and for being cannon fodder.

Yeah, when I get back from class (last day of finals) I'll look into the bestistar, and the points saved will go for a stone of spite. I do like the item, I guess I just never thought about it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karon wrote:L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield = 249 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon, Shadow Hide = 183
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, AHW = 112
H: Bray Shaman - Level 2, AHW, Stone of Spite = 137

C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 18 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 159 (6X3)
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Champion = 111 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)

S: 16 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 247 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x3)
S: 5 Harpies - Scouts = 70

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

2246 Points

6 Power Dice, 4 Dispel Dice, 1 Arcane Bomb

And the expected list for 8th edition, going off the %'s rumor

Karon wrote:L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield = 249 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 173
H: Bray Shaman - Level 2, AHW, Stone of Spite, Dispel Scroll = 162

C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 18 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 169 (6X3)
C: 18 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 159 (6X3)
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)
C: 10 Ungors - Musician = 53 (5x2)

S: 16 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 247 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x3)
S: 5 Harpies - Scouts = 70

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

2248 Points

4 Power Dice, 3 Dispel Dice, 1 Dispel Scroll, 1 Arcane Bomb

Thoughts? I'm actually thinking of just using the second list for now and 8th, seems a bit better to me.

Edit: im dumb and cant read.
nice, the first list needs a gor moved (although you might have already factored that in)
the list looks good, gooooo beastherd!

Kiwidru wrote:Edit: im dumb and cant read.
nice, the first list needs a gor moved (although you might have already factored that in)
the list looks good, gooooo beastherd!

What do you mean needs a gor moved? I just re-did all the points costs for my gors, and all of them are spot on, or am I missing something.

And thanks.

in the first list the possibly ambushing squad has 18 gor, which is more than either regularly deployed squad; for the off chance you did want to ambush them... it doesnt really matter as you later said you were going to play with the other list anyway.

also, and im sure you have thought of this but i thought id mention it for clarification, the second list can only have 2 of the 5 Gor units ambushing.

Yeah, I realized.

I'll remove the "might be ambushing" as I don't think I ever will...I like an epic-feeling battle line ^.^

Appreciate all the comments, mates ^.^

Anyone else got anything to add? I'm liking the look of the second list, I am going to just run it now and for 8th edition so I can at least be familiar with my army when the wave of change comes over in 8th.

Nothing else to add from me as far as evaluation is concerned. The second list looks fairly stout so I would say get as many games as you can in with it. I'm very flattered you considered the Stone and I don't think you will regret it. Let me know how your games go!

I noticed my points costs were off (well, just the wargor, but by like 20 points, and I just didn't understand why) and I re-thought a few things, and since 8th edition is 25% Lords and 25% Heroes now, its all good whichever list I take. So I reconfigured them, and want to hear everyone's opinion on which is better.

L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield = 249 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 161
H: Bray Shaman - Level 2, AHW, Stone of Spite, Dispel Scroll = 162

C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 18 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, musician, standard = 159 (6X3)
C: 18 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 159 (6X3)
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 10 Ungor Raiders - Musician = 63
C: 10 Ungor Raiders- Musician = 63

S: 16 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 247 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x3)
S: 5 Harpies - Scouts = 70

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

4 Power Dice, 3 Dispel Dice, 1 Dispel Scroll, 1 Arcane Bomb

2246 Points

L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield = 249 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 161
H: Bray Shaman – Level 2, AHW, Dispel Scroll = 137
H: Bray Shaman - Level 2, AHW, Stone of Spite = 137

C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 17 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Full Command = 161 (6X3) (Bray Shaman)
C: 18 Gors – Additional Hand Weapon, Musician, Standard = 159 (6X3)
C: 12 Gors - Additional Hand Weapon, Musician = 101 (6x2) *Ambushing*
C: 9 Ungor Raiders - Musician = 57
C: 9 Ungor Raiders- Musician = 57

S: 16 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 247 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x3)
S: 5 Harpies - Scouts = 70

R: Cygor = 275
R: Jabberslythe = 275

6 Power Dice, 4 Dispel Dice, 1 Arcane Bomb, 1 Dispel Scroll

2247 Points

Also, can y'all see the one of these actually winning a game? I've been second guessing myself a bit.