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I have some advice to ask the Eldar players here who have experimented with both all-tank and Jetseer/tank mechdar builds. Here's a little explanation:

So I'm a fairly long-running mechdar player, flying the unfriendly skies of the grimdark future with all-skimmer lists for some time now. Mostly I just love Eldar tanks, and hate painting infantry.

I've tried Jetseer mobs in friendly games. But I really don't like being seen as "that guy", so I don't bring out the jetmobs in the little bit of competitive play I do. I'd rather suffer a bit in battle scores than have to explicitly demonstrate my non-a-holeishness to get decent sportsmanship scores. Besides which, I'm much more familiar with tanks than bikes, and like not having to worry about tarpits much.

'Ard Boyz is a different matter, of course . This year I'm considering taking a jetseer mob or two on top of 3x DAs and 1x Storm Guard with maxxed flamers [insert joke here] all in Serpents, 2x Dragons in Serpents, 2-3 Prisms and maybe Yriel (or something close to that, still working out lists).

I want to include the Jetseers because I've been impressed with their offensive and defensive capacities in my few games using them. Frankly, with as little as I get to play these days I need a pretty uber list to compensate for my unfamiliarity with newer-codex powerbuilds. But I'm just not that confident that the Jetseers actually synergize with my skimmertanks very well. An article by Fritz at Way of Saim-Hann recently got me thinking: when I reserve everything (which is about half the time these days), I've seen my Jetseers get punished for being unable to Fortune. It's a real problem. Also, I'm not good at coordinating the tanks or the infantry to support the jetseers, as anything else is so vulnerable compared to the psychic biker elves.

I'd really appreciate opinions form folks here: Are the Jetseers so tough that they overcome their shortcomings in regards to Reserve? Is there a way to mitigate those? And how are they best used in combo with transported infantry?

I guess my bottom-line issue is actually this: will all-tank mechdar scale better to 2500 than a jetseer/tank hybrid? Again, advice appreciated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The lists in question have been posted to the army lists forum here, by the way: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/287788.page#1463652.

If you want to run JetCouncils at 'Ard Boyz then you should really be running two of them fully maxed out as you have the points for it and still have room to build a solid core of scoring units (i.e more than just jetbikes). The problem is that so many armies have ways to counter or completely neutralise Fortune, and without that things will end badly very quickly. At normal points levels you can often get away with it more, but at 2500 people realise that builds with 2 JetCouncils/Dual Lash/other psychic heavy builds are much more likely to show up and will make sure they can deal with them. Many armies will be bringing things like an Inquisitor with Mystics and a Hood which they would otherwise forgo at lower points levels. Not saying that you won't be able to do well with Dual Councils, but they are very easy to counter. Definitely don't even think about taking a Council on foot with Eldrad/Yriel, its too easy to lose the Serpent at which point they are dead.

Personally I think Wave Serpent spam would work better than the councils, you can pack in plenty of Bright Lances and Fire Dragons and still have room to fit a scary amount of S6 shooting (don't forget the small warlock squads with Destructor's in a Serpent for another cheap Serpent).

I don't consider Jetbound councils to be particularly effective. Warlocks are definitely useful in themselves, but I have a hard time balancing the cost of jetbikes, with the actual use you can make of them. T4 w/ a 3+ save is not a great boost, and you are basically left with the fact that you can turbo 24", without any use of the cover save. This lack of application (focus: what am I actually getting from this jetbike) becomes particularly noticeable when you are mixing Jetlocks with transports. A jetbike-centric list will allow your Warlocks to comfortably make use of their mobility, as it is the only advantage provided by the jetbikes. This factor would include the assault move, although its overall use is actually pretty limited when considering the Warlocks assault-focused role. Spamming Heavy flamers and spears is not an effective use of Jetlocks, primarily because a 6 inch assault move does not provide full use of such tools.

In a tank you can move 12, disembark 2, and fire Heavy flamers 8 (or what the template will allow). Jetbikes do not provide the extra 2 inches of range, though you can squeeze out an extra 1/4 inch or so from model based jetbike advantages; fact remains that the tank allows more shooting range, AND it can provide the same mobility (aside the assault move provided by jetbikes). In terms of cost, a 100 point basic Wave serpent, is undeniably cheaper than jetbikes when considered cumulatively, and footbound Warlocks retain the ability to use FoF. When out of the tank, Warlocks will be limited to an average 15 inch total assault range/turn, versus 18 inches in via jetbikes.

Saim-Hann/Ulthwe lists are very flexible, but they rely almost entirely on taking full advantage of tactical use of their mobility. In many situation this means using the full extent of jetbike mobility, to effectively overrun the opponent. In other words, several Wave serpents can hold a jetbike force back, while just a handful of Fire prisms can assist jetbikes via accessory cover through tank hulls. 5-6 tanks can provide a massive amount of BLOS/cover, as they would also reduce mobility, simply by being on the table. Tanks are large, they make it hard to be nimble with your Jetbikes. 3 tanks is a great compromise, while 5 isn't necessarily so.

I consider Warlocks in general to be a small arms magnet, in almost every game they have been demolished on my side, my opponent has used little more than s4/ap5 weapons. Smalls arms are extremely cheap, and even lasguns can punch holes in your fancy jetbike doodads. Jetlocks running up front, can absorb enormous amounts of ranged firepower, while Guardian bikers can effectively absorb small arms fire at short range. Tanks can do so as well, but it will be much harder to use your tanks in the same way without reducing the flexibility of your Jetlocks.

Ive had great success with eldar in past 'ard boyz but I fear this year they will be shelved (and will stay that way for awhile)..

Last year was one of the two years Ive won prelims and semis with them and it was always a dangerous gamble due to space marines and inquisitors.. However this year we've seen the rise of space wolves and blood angels who each have very very good psykers that people will take regardless of the psychic hood

To me this means Im going to be facing a psychic hood 2 out of 3 games MINIMUM .. perhaps all 3 and that is too much of a risk for me

Eldar suffered greatly due to 5th ed and have become too much of a gimmick army .. Fortune or die basically so I dont think Id put that many points into warlocks on jetbikes

Eldar are now a second tier army, and will likely have a very hard time playing competitively. The newest codices alone (BA, SW, Nids) have everything necessary to counter an eldar force. If you meta to beat either of these armies, or any other recent codex for that matter, everything else in the tourney will wipe the floor with your force.

I don't see Eldar performing terribly, but it is more than likely they will not be winning very much this year. The main reason for that is nearly every new codex provides any and all advantages that were signature to the Eldar codex. Re-rolls? Try telling that to BA. Fast tanks? Have fun against the new wave of hardcore mech armies.

Eldar are still quite a bit of fun, just not in a face-smashing goodness kind of way. I am still a relatively new player, but the reputation for Eldar being the big boys on the field in 4th ed. kind of counters their new found lack of stature.

It will be interesting to see the next Eldar codex, as their primary strengths are now quite common amongst newer armies. I hope to see Eldar psykers returned to their former glory, as Eldar are supposedly the most powerful psykers in the WH40k universe (even though the fluff has practically nothing to do with the actual game). Point for point, Eldrad does not perform very well, still well worth the points, without having an advantage that would be expected from a powerful/expensive Eldar psyker. The expense of Eldar weaponry alone, is more than enough to take the shine off of Eldrad. Still very fragile, Eldar have little to make up for this fact any more.

Thanks for the tips, everyone- especially the updates on the new metagame.

Powerguy, I appreciate the advice on what would scale well at 2500. I'm a bit worried that pretty much every list will also be tooled to beat Valkyrie spam, which will mean Serpentspam will be even more screwed. But since I'm dedicated to at least bringing some tanks, it would be better to go all the way and remove threats to them, rather than having to counter threats to the Jetseers as well.

I do think I'll skip the foot Seer Council in favor of more tanks and shooting. I've fielded a foot council before at that level (got me to 11th at regionals the first year of 'Ard Boyz), but it was probably a serious pointsink. With what everyone else is saying about the prevalence of hoods, I think I'll stick with tanks and one last-ditch CC unit just in case.

Wrexasaur, if I ever do field a jetbiker list I'll have to include other small-arms-worthy targets for the bikers to suck shots away from. Other bikes seem like a good idea, and perhaps a few Guardian mobs as objective claimers. I see your point about tanks not mixing well with bike mobs in the movement phase. Thanks for that. As for your comment about not being able to min/max Eldar effectively to deal with BA, SW and 'Nids without losing effectiveness against everyone else, that intrigues me. If you've got a sec, would you please list what specific tweaks you woulod put on a Mechdar force to allow it to deal with each of those opponents? Maybe there's a way to fold in at least most of them, or at least stuff I should playtest.

Kirasu, it sounds like psychic powers have really climbed out of the hole that they fell into in 4th edition. I just wish Eldar had some form of psyker defense that didn't involve sinking 100 points into a Seer. Oh well. Do you think that just grinning and bearing it (and staying inside the vehicles unless the pskyer is dead) will do, or are the SW/BA psychic powers a serious threat to skimmertanks as well?

I guess I'll be sticking with an all-tank list, then, with no psykers and minimal trimmin's.

Here's the list I plan to field based on this discussion, if anyone is curious. I've posted it in the Armylists section as well, but would advice from you fellows if you have any (as your comments have really helped so far). It does have a bit of extra chrome (Yriel, 10xDAs squad) just because I find the all-tank Stelek lists totally soulless to play more than once, but I kept it fairly lean.


'Ard Boyz 2500 Mech Eldar All-tank

Yriel (with 10x DAs in Serpent) 155

5 Fire Dragons 80
Wave Serpent, stones, star engines, TL shuricannon 125

5 Fire Dragons 80
Wave Serpent, stones, star engines, TL shuricannon 125

5 Fire Dragons, incl. exarch with flamer 92
Wave Serpent, stones, star engines, TL shuricannon 125

10 DAs incl Exarch with PW/SS, Bladestorm, Defend 177
Wave Serpent, stones, TL BL 145

5 DAs 60
Wave Serpent, stones, TL BL 145

5 DAs 60
Wave Serpent, stones, TL BL 145

5 DAs 60
Wave Serpent, stones, TL BL 145

10 Storm Guard incl 2x flamers 92
Wave Serpent, stones, TL shuricannon 110

10 Storm Guard incl 2x flamers 92
Wave Serpent, stones, TL shuricannon 110


Fire Prism, stones 125
Fire Prism, stones 125
Fire Prism, stones 125


2498