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So, I'm starting to get into saves on my journey into leanring 40k. As I understand it, if you have multiple saves available, you must pick "the best one". Does that mean the best one numerically, or the best one situationally?

For example, you have a SM in cover, with a 3+ armor save and a 4+ cover save. He gets hit by a high AP weapon, lets say a AP2 lascannon. He would get no armor save vs the lascannon, but he should get one for being in cover, since AP doesn't matter. In this situation, does he get the 4+ cover save, or no save at all, as the 3 is "better", but the AP negates it? The example on pp24 sort of goes into this, but uses a equivalent 3+ cover save so it doesn't really answer the question.

It would have to be situational - otherwise having an invulnerable save lower than your armour save would always be useless.

The example given on p24 with the Chaplain makes it pretty clear that you take the save that is most likely to keep your model alive

You get whichever is better in the situation.

For example, a space marine (3+ save) with a refactor field (5+ invulnerable, yes I know that's Imperial Guard wargear...) is in some 4+ cover.

If he is shot by a bolter (AP5) he can choose from all his saves. In this case, he would use the 3+ armour save.
If he is shot with a lascannon (AP2) his armour save is negated, so from the remaining saves, the best is the 4+ cover save.
If he is shot with a flamestorm cannon (AP3 and ignores cover) then the best save he can take is the 5+ invulnerable.
If he is shot with mystery weapon X (AP1, ignores cover, ignores invulnerable saves) then he gets no save at all.

GCMandrake wrote:You get whichever is better in the situation.

For example, a space marine (3+ save) with a refactor field (5+ invulnerable, yes I know that's Imperial Guard wargear...) is in some 4+ cover.

If he is shot by a bolter (AP5) he can choose from all his saves. In this case, he would use the 3+ armour save.
If he is shot with a lascannon (AP2) his armour save is negated, so from the remaining saves, the best is the 4+ cover save.
If he is shot with a flamestorm cannon (AP3 and ignores cover) then the best save he can take is the 5+ invulnerable.
If he is shot with mystery weapon X (AP1, ignores cover, ignores invulnerable saves) then he gets no save at all.

Yes, obviously, as in the BRB example.

The issue is slightly muddied by additional factors... what if you're forced to reroll successes on some saves? Is a numerically worse save that is statistically better post-rerolls the 'best' save?
What if, tactically, the model wants to lose the combat... does that make a worse save the 'best'?

I've usually seen it played that you're forced to use the save that provides the best survival chance overall at that moment. The strict wording of the rule is just a tad ambiguous, however.

Indeed - best doesn't always mean numerically best - but the one which will protect you against the wound.

Of course, if you've got a poor armour save and are up against Grey Knights with an Incinerator, it's all academic anyway..

there are no hard and fast rules for what is "best". mathammer can tell you what gives you the highest % chance though.

so just declare what save your using and roll that one.

How is multiplying two numbers "Mathhammer"?

Apparently it's too difficult for some....

The Best save is the best [thing that stops you getting wounded]. All that matters is you maximise your chance at not getting wounded, otherwise you have not picked the best save.

I agree that the best save is the one with the highest chance of stopping the wound, after all factors are considered.

it is ultimatly up to you.

if a Space marine captain witha 2+ armor and 4+ invuln is shot by a Bolter(ap5) there is nothing preventing you from taking the invuln instead of the armor.

it wouldn't be smart, but you can do it.

you are allowed to choose the best save available to you.

"Best" is purely a matter of your opinion.


there are times when you have to reroll certain successful saves. "fire on my target"(i think thats the one) from guardsmen's orders forces a reroll of successful cover saves, if your armor is allowed then you can choose that instead of the cover, even if at first glance the cover is better.

Best is certainly not an opinion, as it is Best Save as in "the best [thing that stops you getting wounded]"

If you are not using the best [thing that stops you getting wounded] then you are not using the best save.

a 3+ with a forced reroll of successes is worse then a 5+ with no reroll.

it is the owning players choice.

nowhere does the BRB say you MUST take a save if you don't want to.

You must take the BEST SAVE.

What is a save?

something that stops you getting wounded.

So you MUST take the BEST (thing that stops you getting wounded)

Work out what that is as needed, but at most you are multiplying two numbers together.

I personally agree with nosferatu1001 on this one. The model is trying to stay alive.

However, if you don't assume that stopping the wound is positive (i.e best), the other save can be taken with the same validity. The rules aren't clear so pointless argument.

Grey Templar wrote:a 3+ with a forced reroll of successes is worse then a 5+ with no reroll.

it is the owning players choice.

nowhere does the BRB say you MUST take a save if you don't want to.

Yes, it does. It says you ALWAYS use the best save. ALWAYS means ALWAYS.

Soup and a roll wrote:I personally agree with nosferatu1001 on this one. The model is trying to stay alive.

However, if you don't assume that stopping the wound is positive (i.e best), the other save can be taken with the same validity. The rules aren't clear so pointless argument.

Except it is a compound statement, as I have shown. It is the BEST [thing that stops you dying] so if you arent doing the best [thing that stops you dying] you have not complied with the requirement to take the Best Save.

There is no ambiguity in this, as it does not give you permission to consider anything BUT the [thing that it is stoping you dying] when you choose the best one.

You must always attempt to save where possible, and you must always use the 'best' save available to you. The question lies in what constitutes 'best' when an effect causes you to re-roll successful or failed saves.

One side to the debate is that you simply take the save which is 'lowest', regardless of re-rolls. i.e. 4+ has precedence over 5+ as the number component is lower (and hence 'better').

The other is that you take the save which offers the best chance of survival, including changes in probability due to re-rolls. To work out which save to take, consult the following:

BEST
2F
3F
2
4F
2S
3
5F
4
3S
5
6F
4S
6
5S
6S
WORST

Where S means re-roll successes, and F means re-roll fails.

Ouze wrote: As I understand it, if you have multiple saves available, you must pick "the best one". Does that mean the best one numerically, or the best one situationally?

Unfortunately, you've hit one of those topics that gets discussed to death on a regular basis with no clear consensus.

There are several different viewpoints:
- You must choose the best save numerically
- You must choose the best save based on the situation or
- You aren't actually required to use the best save, you just have the ability to do so, and which one you use is entirely up to the player.


From my experience, the third one is really how it winds up being played. I've never seen a situation arise on the table where a player has questioned the save their opponent chooses to use.


Locking this one now, as it will inevitably spiral down into the same tired old argument as last time.