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General_Chaos wrote:You can't hit a model you can't see

Oh, nuts. Looks like all those barrage weapons are useless then.

SaintHazard wrote:I see no reason to have to actually calculate the area of the filled template at zero degrees versus at twenty degrees, versus three hundred and forty degrees. Eye it.

Yep, eye it. Which one covers more? It's incredibly unlikely that max coverage of the vehicle will also give you an optimum shot on the squad. You'd have to line it up very carefully.

So line it up very carefully.

SaintHazard wrote:I think his targeting of the Rhino is legal.

If I'm interpreting what he's saying he's doing with that Dread correctly, it should look something like this:


blue=dread, gray=rhino, red=marines, green=template

in which case, the requirement of "must cover as much of the vehicle as possible without touching any friendly models" is in fact met. As much of that template as possible is covering the Rhino. The fact that the bulk of the template is covering the Marines is a byproduct of its placement on the Rhino.

Remember that a Dreadnought's HF only has a 45 degree firing arc.

I would be happy with that. Flamethrowers are not exactly a precision, point target weapon. And it is supported by the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice graphics BTW.

SaintHazard wrote:So line it up very carefully.

I don't believe that there is any angle in your example where the dreadnaught can get a good hit on the squad while still getting the maximum amount of the vehicle possible. The squad would need to be at the corner of the vehicle for that to be possible.

Oh yeah, I'm a regular MSPaint wizard.

(That gakky drawing took me like fifteen minutes, I'm horrible at MSPaint)

Kilkrazy wrote:Nice graphics BTW.

O RLY?



This superfantabulous picture took about 5 mins in Vassal 40k and GIMP. So there.

Scott-S6 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:So line it up very carefully.

I don't believe that there is any angle in your example where the dreadnaught can get a good hit on the squad while still getting the maximum amount of the vehicle possible. The squad would need to be at the corner of the vehicle for that to be possible.

Or the Dreadnought would have the be at the corner. Like I said, line it up carefully - as long as the bulk of the Rhino is in between the Dread and the Marines, you're good to go. With just the right positioning of the Dread - at the corner of the Rhino, and just far enough back to catch the Marines under the round portion of the template - you could make it work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:clipped

OMG Vassal doesn't count you cheating bastard, use MSPaint like a real man!

SaintHazard wrote:
Or the Dreadnought would have the be at the corner.

No, that doesn't work. Wherever the dread is positioned he will always need to aim diagonally across the rhino. As such, he'll only be able to get the squad if they are standing at the vehicles corner opposite to him.

You misunderstand. See, there he's facing the Rhino. No-no. Take advantage of that 45 degree firing arc.

Face him perpendicular to the Rhino, so that the template is limited in its counter-clockwise rotation along its firing arc. The way I had him facing in my original picture - a bit more to the right if necessary.

You're positing that "pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target" means "pivot him away from the target so that he can barely catch it but toast those guys standing behind it"?

Technically okay but pretty beardy.

Scott-S6 wrote:You're positing that "pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target" means "pivot him away from the target so that he can barely catch it but toast those guys standing behind it"?

Technically okay but pretty beardy.

You say beardy, I say canny.

It IS legal, though. And he IS still facing the target, just not flush-on.

SaintHazard wrote:You misunderstand. See, there he's facing the Rhino. No-no. Take advantage of that 45 degree firing arc.

Face him perpendicular to the Rhino, so that the template is limited in its counter-clockwise rotation along its firing arc. The way I had him facing in my original picture - a bit more to the right if necessary.

Your original picture is a text-book example of when hitting the squad on the other side is sub-optimised, or rather when using the flamer to hit them is not very effective.

There are positions or situations that will yield a better result, but it requires the dreadnought to stand itself to the side and be lucky the infantry are working with him. In your particular case, turning the dreadnought to the side would simply mean that instead of swivelling the template to the left, you'd swivel it to the right.

So, the answer is simply: yes, you're able to hit squads you can't see, but no, it will in 9 cases out of 10 be a rather poor hit count. (Gwar!'s example shows that the scale of the infantry is important as well, to make that flaming legal, you'd have to swivel it to the left or right as well, resulting in fewer hits than what is shown in his diagram, but more than what is presented in Saint Hazard's. Sadly I don't have the 40k module or vassal, so I can't post my own graphic. Yet.)

Mahtamori wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:You misunderstand. See, there he's facing the Rhino. No-no. Take advantage of that 45 degree firing arc.

Face him perpendicular to the Rhino, so that the template is limited in its counter-clockwise rotation along its firing arc. The way I had him facing in my original picture - a bit more to the right if necessary.

Your original picture is a text-book example of when hitting the squad on the other side is sub-optimised, or rather when using the flamer to hit them is not very effective.

There are positions or situations that will yield a better result, but it requires the dreadnought to stand itself to the side and be lucky the infantry are working with him. In your particular case, turning the dreadnought to the side would simply mean that instead of swivelling the template to the left, you'd swivel it to the right.

So, the answer is simply: yes, you're able to hit squads you can't see, but no, it will in 9 cases out of 10 be a rather poor hit count. (Gwar!'s example shows that the scale of the infantry is important as well, to make that flaming legal, you'd have to swivel it to the left or right as well, resulting in fewer hits than what is shown in his diagram, but more than what is presented in Saint Hazard's. Sadly I don't have the 40k module or vassal, so I can't post my own graphic. Yet.)

Which is why the facing of the Dreadnought goes hand-in-hand with the placement of the Dreadnought. The example in my graphic, and Gwar!'s, is bad placement. See above.

The rules say you have to try and get as much of the target unit under the template as possible. As the target unit consists of one (1) Rhino, and you have one (1) Rhino under the template, you have fulfilled that requirement. Seems reasonable.

zeshin wrote:The rules say you have to try and get as much of the target unit under the template as possible. As the target unit consists of one (1) Rhino, and you have one (1) Rhino under the template, you have fulfilled that requirement. Seems reasonable.

Re-read the rules. The rules for Templates against vehicles specifically state you must get as much of the hull under the template as possible.

Gwar! wrote:

zeshin wrote:The rules say you have to try and get as much of the target unit under the template as possible. As the target unit consists of one (1) Rhino, and you have one (1) Rhino under the template, you have fulfilled that requirement. Seems reasonable.

Re-read the rules. The rules for Templates against vehicles specifically state you must get as much of the hull under the template as possible.

Didn't you just help get a thread locked with the "re-read" shtick? But you're probably right...I will re-read the template rules as I may very well have muddied them up.

Gwar! wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Nice graphics BTW.

O RLY?



This superfantabulous picture took about 5 mins in Vassal 40k and GIMP. So there.

Thats pretty much the gist of it right there. A flamer template is 9" long A rhino is only 3.5 or 4 inchs wide at most. That leaves you 4-5" of play on the back side with which to overlap the other models. Totally doable. I've done it and had it done to me.

zeshin wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

zeshin wrote:The rules say you have to try and get as much of the target unit under the template as possible. As the target unit consists of one (1) Rhino, and you have one (1) Rhino under the template, you have fulfilled that requirement. Seems reasonable.

Re-read the rules. The rules for Templates against vehicles specifically state you must get as much of the hull under the template as possible.

Didn't you just help get a thread locked with the "re-read" shtick? But you're probably right...I will re-read the template rules as I may very well have muddied them up.

No, I did not.

In this case, this is very clearly spelled out in the rules and all I did was suggest that you take the time to once again read the rules in question, as you may have missed something. I did not intend any offence.

I find that offensive!

I took some pics just for fun. Using maximum deployment/disembark distance from the rhino, my little 6 man unit of Emperors Children got roasted by the SW heavy flamer. Its just how you come at it.




So as you can see, its very easy to get 4-5 guys under the flamer template if they all got out trying to hide behind the rhino. Its also possible to cover more rhino and get more guys depending on your facing.



And here we have the dread coming in at the worst possible angle and he still gets half the squad.

Damn, son, nice graphics.

BUT THE RHINO ISN'T GREY SO IT ISN'T THE SAME SO IT DOESN'T COUNT!

But yeah, with clever placement you can easily roast the squad.

@ Jayden: First picture shows good placement. There's actually two flamer placements which will yield negligible difference in coverage on the first picture (if you take a second template and align it's left edge with the middle line of the first template, the right edge of the second template should be roughly on the edge of the Rhino's hull) so in that case you could choose the better placement.

By the way, the templates I've got at home are old 6th edition fantasy ones, are they different from current edition 40K? They've never been used, we always end up using someone else's, but... that flame template is exactly 8".

The main issue is that most people don't know how to calculate the area of a non-parallel trapazoid on the spot. So we just have to eyeball it. You look through the template and guess at which placement works best.

Jayden63 wrote:The main issue is that most people don't know how to calculate the area of a non-parallel trapazoid on the spot.

-Scoff- You should be avoiding those kind of riffraff!

In any case, this isn't a common situation, so it's best to just wing it.

Ive done this trick before as well. I'd make sure to cover as much of the vehicle i deemed fair and the rest on the squad hiding behind it. Instead of hitting 6 id hit 4, because I shifted the template to cover more of the vehicle. All in the sake of not being TFG.

Also. I accidently placed my flamer model on the wrong spot so i couldn't flame properly. so I legally flamed half my own squad to effectively roast a bunch of hiding scouts. Sure one of my marines did the funny dance. But those scouts didnt like having their 2+ cover (it was bolstered by a tech marine) being denied :3

You can NEVER "legally" flame one of your own squad - you are entirely prohibited from placng your template such that it covers friendly models, or models in CC.

No. I targeted the scouts. unfortunately it also touched my own marines. this was bad model placement on my part. In fact, I find it more amusing to flame my own squad to hit enemies. We ARE chaos after all.

Plus my opponent allowed it even after looking at the rules. He found it funny I failed 1 out of 3 saves

bucketwalrus wrote:No. I targeted the scouts. unfortunately it also touched my own marines. this was bad model placement on my part. In fact, I find it more amusing to flame my own squad to hit enemies. We ARE chaos after all.

Plus my opponent allowed it even after looking at the rules. He found it funny I failed 1 out of 3 saves

Your opponent is blind then, since the rules explicitly forbid you placing templates over your own models.