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CKO wrote:Off topic a bit but why do hellhounds have to pay for smoke launchers?

I've wondered this myself. Oversight on the design teams part?

Been spending some brainpower on the flame tanks... in particular trying to figure out what, exactly, they can do on the table that a vendetta and some hull heavy flamer chimeras can't.

I found a couple of things... one of them i feel to be quite good..

First off the hellhounds are tanks, unlike the vendetta. They might not be able to leap 24" over models, but they can tank shock. The vendetta can not, a fact which many of my opponents fail to capitalize on. Just spaced out infantry models can prevent a vendetta from contesting.

Here is the one I think might be powerful enough and unique enough to make a case for the hellhound. I can't find anything in the codex or the FAQ that requires the placement of the template to 'target' anything, or even for it to require line of sight. You simply place the small end within 12" of your barrel, and place the large end not closer to the barrel than the smaller end. So this likely means harelquins are in for a rough surprise, and more importantly, it means if you can find a spot in the center of the table where LOS is blocked, then you could park a hellhound out of LOS behind it, and just start raining promethium down.

That 'i can get you but you can't get me' does exist already to an extent in the IG army with barrage and barrage ordnance, but not really with the extreme accuracy the hellhound has. And not something with side armor 12 that can get to table center, then bust out an 18" ram or tank shock on the final turns of the game. If you could patch up the holes left by cutting vendettas elsewhere in the list, then a strong case could be made for the hellhound as your fast attack unit of choice.

You have to have LoS on the target to shoot at it in the first place, so you can't exactly do what you're proposing, unless part of the unit is in your LoS, and the rest is hiding behind a wall like you suggest.

ChrisWWII wrote:You have to have LoS on the target to shoot at it in the first place, so you can't exactly do what you're proposing, unless part of the unit is in your LoS, and the rest is hiding behind a wall like you suggest.

Incorrect.

page 50

*To fire the inferno cannon place the template so that the narrow end is within 12" of the weapon and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon.


Please show me where I am even required to select a target in the first place, and whether or not the tmplate needs to be set down in LOS.

Page 15, BRB

The Shooting Sequence
1) Check line of sigh and pick the target. All models in the unit that can see at least one enemy model in the target unit may open fire.

If you can't see it, you can't shoot at it. If you can see one guy sticking out beyond the cover, then you can shoot at the unit and lay the template down as you described, however if you can not see the enemy in the first place, you can not fire at him at all. Template weapons only ignore cover saves, and remove the roll to hit. It does not mean you can shoot blindly at targets you can not see.

The hellhound follows the instructions in its codex for firing, it does not follow the regular rules for shooting. Thats why it starts with "to fire the inferno cannon"...

The general rules for shooting do not apply to the specific instructions for firing the inferno cannon found in the codex.

We can take any further discussion about it to YMDC.

Very well then. I shall make the thread.

Edit: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/346851.page#2447319

Here's the approrpiate thread.

All of the HH variant tanks are good. I love HHs myself and use them frequently.

I prefer to run the HHs in teams of two with heavy bolters as the range of the weapons and matching AP works best for me. Plus, with two, I can stack enough wounds on a squad to stand really good odds of gutting a squad with VoF. Things like Long Fangs, HWTs, etc. all get smoked by this unit. Also, being a Chimera chassis, they are a hell of a lot easier to hide and grant cover to than a vendetta. My favorite mix at 2000 is 2 vendettas and 2 HHs in a squad. I would hesitate to run them with HHFs as the mixed AP means that your opponent can stack wounds in such a way as to minimize casualties. Same goes for the BW. Giving them the flamer really only helps the enemy unless you are targeting a very large squad.

I have never gotten around to trying the DD myself, but I have a friend who is a very good competitive player and he swears up and down that they DD is the best variant. He runs his with a HMM and performs very well with them against tough comp.

The Banewolf I have used well as a counter assault unit against assault armies and as a good objective contesting/assault unit against shooty armies. I have to agree with others though, that it has been the least useful variant for me. Although, I could see using it with a HMM as a tank hunter that also is a powerful anti infantry platform.

Again, as Shep said, the Vendetta is under-costed and clearly the most efficient choice. But, you can still build a great IG list using the HH variant tanks so long as you pack in reliable AT in other slots.

Reecius wrote:I would hesitate to run them with HHFs as the mixed AP means that your opponent can stack wounds in such a way as to minimize casualties. Same goes for the BW. Giving them the flamer really only helps the enemy unless you are targeting a very large squad.

The Inferno Cannon is S6, AP4, a heavy flamer is S5, AP4. I don't see the problem.

I can see an argument for using a HHB over a HHF to take advantage of the Inferno Cannon's (relatively) long range, instead of getting into the feared 6" melta range. But then, they could stack cover saves on the more important models...

I also use devil dogs because I don't want to purchase/transport vendettas. For me, the comparison is not between DDs and other hellhound variants, but rather between two fast, long-range antitank vehicles (vendettas and devil dogs). DDs aren't quite as good as vendettas, but I keep them cheap with just dozer blades and hull heavy flamers--the cheapest HH variant available.

They're my second-string antitank weapons (after meltas in chimeras and HWSs) and I use them mainly as maneuver and interdiction units where the speed and the fact that they're tanks is what's important (and their ability to essentially ignore terrain with the dozer blades--another thing vendettas can't do).

I have plenty of antipersonnel elsewhere in my list, though, so I don't need hellhounds or bane wolves. And I freely acknowledge that vendettas would be more efficient at long-range anti-heavy-armor, plus having the whole outflank/scout thing built in. But I'm willing to trade the efficiency for the ability to tank shock, block lines of sight, and hide behind terrain or other tanks.

Gavo wrote:

Reecius wrote:I would hesitate to run them with HHFs as the mixed AP means that your opponent can stack wounds in such a way as to minimize casualties. Same goes for the BW. Giving them the flamer really only helps the enemy unless you are targeting a very large squad.

The Inferno Cannon is S6, AP4, a heavy flamer is S5, AP4. I don't see the problem.

I can see an argument for using a HHB over a HHF to take advantage of the Inferno Cannon's (relatively) long range, instead of getting into the feared 6" melta range. But then, they could stack cover saves on the more important models...

You are correct, I had a brain-fart, there.

That is only the case with the BW, which is AP3.

Reecius wrote:

Gavo wrote:

Reecius wrote:I would hesitate to run them with HHFs as the mixed AP means that your opponent can stack wounds in such a way as to minimize casualties. Same goes for the BW. Giving them the flamer really only helps the enemy unless you are targeting a very large squad.

The Inferno Cannon is S6, AP4, a heavy flamer is S5, AP4. I don't see the problem.

I can see an argument for using a HHB over a HHF to take advantage of the Inferno Cannon's (relatively) long range, instead of getting into the feared 6" melta range. But then, they could stack cover saves on the more important models...

You are correct, I had a brain-fart, there.

That is only the case with the BW, which is AP3.

Makes sense. I would still run the Banewolf with it, though, since if it moves 12", it's going to be able to fire both, since the Chem Cannon is a defensive weapon. Your oponnent would be able to move around the wounds, but at the end of the day, more wounds = more failed saves. Since the Bane Wolf can't project its flamer, then the HHF seems like the natural choice to complement it.

Well, I play Meq IG, and the Banewolf is great for counter assault against my Chimera squads. You keep it in the pack of Chimeras until it is needed. In my opinion, it is a win-win. They either shoot at the Banewolves, and thus don’t shoot at the Russ’s or Chimeras, Vendettas or anything else. Or they are ignoring them, and letting me get close with them.

Yes, I have plenty of things that do the same thing as the Banewolf. And are more expensive then the Banewolf. My Russ’s will kill troops as well with its large template. But sometimes it scatters too far, and doesn’t wipe out as many troops as I want. Plus a lot of stuff is in cover, and they still get a save over it. Everyone tends to shoot my Vendettas first anyway and they are on AV duty. With the banewolf advancing with the Chimeras and occasionally ahead of them, I get more survivability in my games. The Hellhound just doesn’t win back its points like the Banewolf, in my experience. Yes, Hoards (specifically Nids) are a weak point. But only just. Does it win games for me alone? No. Does it lose games for me? No. But it does consistently win back its points and comes in very handy for a multitude of reasons. Yes. The Chem Cannon combined with the Heavy Flamer is devastating to groups either high toughness, or low armor save. Caveat: Almost useless against Terminator squads. But then, so is the Hellhound.

And if you don’t use it, maybe that is why you don’t like it. I have played with them quite a bit and I like em.

Cortez667 wrote:

CKO wrote:Off topic a bit but why do hellhounds have to pay for smoke launchers?

I've wondered this myself. Oversight on the design teams part?

I think it's because smoke launchers are more valuable on fast, destructive but short-ranged vehicles.

The Bane Wolf just seems like one of those "awesome on paper, terrible in practice" things, like LR Executioners or Bling Wing.

Honestly, I just take 2 Vendettas and forget about Fast Attack.

odorofdeath wrote:The Bane Wolf just seems like one of those "awesome on paper, terrible in practice" things, like LR Executioners or Bling Wing.

Honestly, I just take 2 Vendettas and forget about Fast Attack.

Vendettas are fast attack too...

I meant that I take 2 Vendettas and forget about the rest of my FA choices... sorry for the confusion