Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Void__Dragon wrote: (But I can cite sources of Marines overpowering standard Boyz, Fulgrim, for example).
Fulgrim is not a Marine. He is a primarch. Find an example that's actually relevant.
Not that it really matters. I mean hell, we can quote books that had Space Marines in power armor overpowered by spore mines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 17:58:11
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
In it, Marines overpower Boyz, Solomen Demeter outright states that standard Orks are weaker than Marines (But he admits that Nobz are a little stronger).
Did it not say in Fulgrim that their strength is almost a match for Astates or am I miss remembering?
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
Space Marines are stronger and more capable then your average Ork 1 on 1. Ork advantage has always been by numbers and tenacity. Nobz are an entirely different ballgame though.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Quotes#.UG2vLFGweNE wrote:Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!
That's a du*b quote, makes orks look like the annoying fat kid that always tries to cheat whenever he's losing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 19:05:20
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Did it not say in Fulgrim that their strength is almost a match for Astates or am I miss remembering?
It does.
Despite my trollish comment earlier on, I personally don't believe that an Ork Boy is physically all that much weaker than a Marine, but weaker he is.
I view Orks being on the upper end of S3, with Marines generally populating the whole spectrum of S4 due to variance in size and strength among them (Abaddon is big and strong for a Marine, but still S4, for example). Nobs are stronger than most Marines IMO.
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
given that your average marine is a veteran of probaly 2-4 decades minimum in combat before becoming a true space marine in most chapters (space wolves not being one of them) Yeah i would give in a one on one situation the power to the Marine. because in all honesty Ork society chops us down constantly but premotes one of the truest survival of the fittest cultures. Most orks are probably 2-6 years old and thankfully even though marines can beat them putting them down for the long run fluff wise... not done so easily even for a marine due to our anatomy
Surviving 30 minutes after decapitation
skin as hard as flak-board
and accepting new organ tissue is almost a statistic guarantee with orks rating 0.00029% if I recall correctly
We don't have that constant 4 strength we have the actual strength of a gorilla no joke. Once they get some momentum behind them they do amazing things (watch new planet of the apes; The gorilla Buck is very accurate to the strength of a typical Ork imo.)
We all know this boils down to a numbers game because Orks never come alone to a fight under traditional circumstances a marine should have a decent advantage against even 3-4 orks before possibly being compromised by enough ork tenacity. The real problem i see is that 5 orks is not a big number for our groups at all, that is about 1/2 the coocoons made by one dead ork. No matter what the answer will eventually become Orks so think of it like a cute tower defense game
Things are FAR more interesting once the Nobz and strange boyz start showing up tho.
1 nob with 'eavy armor vs space marine is more or less a stalemate
give that nob a huge choppa and he by the ways of 40k fluff kills that marine without question
Give him a bosspole and he now has proved he is capable of killing many marines
Give that Nob a Power Klaw and is on his way to taking out nearly entire squads of marines
Give that Power Klaw Nob even more time ... and he is well on his way to becoming a company's new chief threat in the area when he is on his way to becoming a Warboss and it won't be long till her gets a Waaagh started after so many of his good friends died to them killy space maureehns
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 00:20:50
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
Bobthehero wrote: Give the SM terminator armor, a power fist and an assault cannon... yeah, both sides can acquire fancy things.
until it's stalemate YET AGAIN so lets try to stop saying one side stronger people. Of course a century old veteran with above gorilla strength is going to be a nearly unkillable gorilla boy a boy isn't scary to a marine a waaagh is scary to a marine.
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
Rather than arguing about super saiyan power levels, I want to make some suggestions to help the OP come up with scenarios where one side or the other would likely prevail.
Squad combat scenarios
If the orks can get into melee with the marines before the marines are aware of the threat (kommando ambush, stormboy assault, etc), the orks are probably going to win a fight with even numbers. The marine advantage in discipline isn't going to help much when they don't have time to formulate/communicate a battle plan.
If the marines and orks are both aware of each other's forces, the marines will handily win any engagement of equal numbers. The orks' only hope of winning is to overwhelm the marines with vastly superior numbers, and even then they'll probably lose 5 or 10 boyz for every marine they down.
If the marines have the advantage of surprise, intel, etc (which they often do), the orks are in serious trouble. This is where the 100-to-1 casualty ratios get run up. The marines will likely target weak points in the ork command and communication structure (such as it is) so that the boyz will be milling around, unable to figure out what's explodin' their mates. The orks' only hope is to regroup.
Solo combat scenarios
One marine vs. one boy is a pretty unfair fight. The ork's main chance is to kill the marine before he's spotted, which is unlikely. The marine's power armor is going to shrug off the blows of a choppa unless it hits very precisely in a weak spot (neck, knees, elbows, armpits...basically joints) and the ork's "armor" of miscellaneous bits of scrap metal won't offer much resistance to a chainsword. This fight should be over in two or three swings.
A battle-brother vs. a nob is more of a fair fight. The nob has the strength advantage on the marine and is able to take a lot more punishment, but his equipment is still poorer. The fight becomes tilted if either one has a wargear advantage (power weapon, 'uge choppa, storm shield, cybork body, etc). Any kind of ranking marine, even a sergeant, is likely to have an advantage.
Only a hero of the Space Marines could hope to stand against a Warboss. He has the advantage over an Astartes in reach, mass, and height. He probably has a power klaw capable of crushing a marine with a single blow, and his hide is thick enough to shrug off a chainsword in all but the most vulnerable locations. Finally, he is infused with Waaagh! energy from the army that he leads. Anyone short of a captain is going to meet a swift and messy end against a Warboss, and even a chapter master is going to have a fight that he may not walk away from.
As far as meks go: mekboyz are a sort of parallel path to standard orks. A Big Mek is like a Warboss, though he's more likely to derive his advantage from gadgets than sheer orneriness. He's at least the equal of a regular Nob in a stand-up fight, though. Below him are mekboyz of varying skill, some with dangerous weapons or vehicles of their own devising, some that aren't competent to do much beyond manual labor (these are Spanna Boyz, named for the wrenches they wield in combat). These are generally about as dangerous as normal boyz.
Rather than arguing about super saiyan power levels, I want to make some suggestions to help the OP come up with scenarios where one side or the other would likely prevail.
Okay, I instant lawled.
Squad combat scenarios
If the orks can get into melee with the marines before the marines are aware of the threat (kommando ambush, stormboy assault, etc), the orks are probably going to win a fight with even numbers. The marine advantage in discipline isn't going to help much when they don't have time to formulate/communicate a battle plan.
agreed here, unpreditability has always been the best advantages orks have over any enemy especially the Necrons.
If the marines and orks are both aware of each other's forces, the marines will handily win any engagement of equal numbers. The orks' only hope of winning is to overwhelm the marines with vastly superior numbers, and even then they'll probably lose 5 or 10 boyz for every marine they down.
agreed again until our basic nob shows up anyway.
If the marines have the advantage of surprise, intel, etc (which they often do), the orks are in serious trouble. This is where the 100-to-1 casualty ratios get run up. The marines will likely target weak points in the ork command and communication structure (such as it is) so that the boyz will be milling around, unable to figure out what's explodin' their mates. The orks' only hope is to regroup.
Or as we prefer to call it, Plot tactics
Solo combat scenarios
One marine vs. one boy is a pretty unfair fight. The ork's main chance is to kill the marine before he's spotted, which is unlikely. The marine's power armor is going to shrug off the blows of a choppa unless it hits very precisely in a weak spot (neck, knees, elbows, armpits...basically joints) and the ork's "armor" of miscellaneous bits of scrap metal won't offer much resistance to a chainsword. This fight should be over in two or three swings.
Not sure I agree with this one due to the varying degree of boyz (tankbustas, lootaz, burnas ect ect ect) a typical run of the mill boy though? sure
A battle-brother vs. a nob is more of a fair fight. The nob has the strength advantage on the marine and is able to take a lot more punishment, but his equipment is still poorer. The fight becomes tilted if either one has a wargear advantage (power weapon, 'uge choppa, storm shield, cybork body, etc). Any kind of ranking marine, even a sergeant, is likely to have an advantage.
is this fluff or game mechanics at this point, cause i don't agree on a mechanics side. In challenges i rarely fear the sergeant.
Only a hero of the Space Marines could hope to stand against a Warboss. He has the advantage over an Astartes in reach, mass, and height. He probably has a power klaw capable of crushing a marine with a single blow, and his hide is thick enough to shrug off a chainsword in all but the most vulnerable locations. Finally, he is infused with Waaagh! energy from the army that he leads. Anyone short of a captain is going to meet a swift and messy end against a Warboss, and even a chapter master is going to have a fight that he may not walk away from.
I concur, it would take something like the admantine mantle or the like to hope to stand against a warboss properly because contray to the Space Marine Game a Warboss wouldn't even flinch at a plasma pistol 8 times out of 10 fluff wise.
As far as meks go: mekboyz are a sort of parallel path to standard orks. A Big Mek is like a Warboss, though he's more likely to derive his advantage from gadgets than sheer orneriness. He's at least the equal of a regular Nob in a stand-up fight, though. Below him are mekboyz of varying skill, some with dangerous weapons or vehicles of their own devising, some that aren't competent to do much beyond manual labor (these are Spanna Boyz, named for the wrenches they wield in combat). These are generally about as dangerous as normal boyz.
Not to mention the sickening number of DEFF KONSTRUKSIONS at play with the Big mek, namely the deff dred and killa kanz which are more than a match for everything marines have other than another dred (which is a close fight sometimes) or the obvious devastator squadrons or eqvi.
Situationals like this are a real awesome little fluff discussion IMO
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/05 02:46:57
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Did it not say in Fulgrim that their strength is almost a match for Astates or am I miss remembering?
It does.
Despite my trollish comment earlier on, I personally don't believe that an Ork Boy is physically all that much weaker than a Marine, but weaker he is.
I view Orks being on the upper end of S3, with Marines generally populating the whole spectrum of S4 due to variance in size and strength among them (Abaddon is big and strong for a Marine, but still S4, for example). Nobs are stronger than most Marines IMO.
Space marine's str= base str+power armor agmented str
Ork's str=Ork's str
An ork doesn't have any extra stuff that mahreens have. If you remove mahreens plot armor the odds are heavily on orks favour.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Quotes#.UG2vLFGweNE wrote:Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!
That's a du*b quote, makes orks look like the annoying fat kid that always tries to cheat whenever he's losing.
Clearly you have no understanding on orks. Orks are born to wage war and their sole purpose is to fight. If orks fall in battle it is considered a dream come true for orks as there no better way of dying. If orks leave it means A) the fighting is no longer worth and there better fighting going on somewhere else B) enemies are all dead/fleeing so there no fighting anymore.
Besides everybody else looks like angry fat kids loosing when compared to orks:
Oomans are pink and soft, not tough and green like da Boyz. They'z all the same size too, so they'z always arguing about who's in charge, 'cos no way of telling 'cept fer badges an' ooniforms and fings. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot of mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while they'z all arguing wiv each other over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
illuknisaa wrote: Space marine's str= base str+power armor agmented str
Ork's str=Ork's str
An ork doesn't have any extra stuff that mahreens have. If you remove mahreens plot armor the odds are heavily on orks favour.
Prove your statement.
A Nob? In melee combat sure.
A Boy? Verify that.
Appeal to plot means exactly gak.
Also, you are aware that Space Marine Scouts, who wear Carapace Armour, are also S4, right?
correct but in fluff a space marine without "power armor" is actually significantly weaker scouts would have less of an advantage in strength but more mobility basically a more mobile ork in true fluff sense.
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
Wow no need to look in a dex everything is right hear in the thread though I am kinda regreting asking the orignal question as it's taken on a life of it's own, no arguements but feel free to converse and add anymore fluff, opinions and speculation but be ready to back that up lol.
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
Also says scout armor is like buffed carapace armor (ie not the same as the ig stuff).
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
What is this energy their infused with that makes them grow and get smarter, I know it's proberly waaagh but can anyone nail it down and give me a better explanation for me please. cheers
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
Also says scout armor is like buffed carapace armor (ie not the same as the ig stuff).
Plus it isn't powered.
Aka it doesn't increase their strength, which is all that matters.
It doesn't say they are pretty much the same at all.
Oh, and BMW, a Marine in fluff is signifigantly weaker without his armour? That isn't true, if we go by the main game, they are the same S, and if we go by Deathwatch, it adds 2 points to strength (At base they have eight).
Also says scout armor is like buffed carapace armor (ie not the same as the ig stuff).
Plus it isn't powered.
Aka it doesn't increase their strength, which is all that matters.
It doesn't say they are pretty much the same at all.
Oh, and BMW, a Marine in fluff is signifigantly weaker without his armour? That isn't true, if we go by the main game, they are the same S, and if we go by Deathwatch, it adds 2 points to strength (At base they have eight).
I play deathwatch, I know what you mean.. you guys are seriously twisting my words around. For the love of gork get your fandom out of your butts pls.
on average, an ork USING DEATH WATCH is similar strength (within the 10 brackets) of an average space marine using scout armor since it doesn't provide benefits to strength or require a power cell. I never said this matter i said it evens the strength playing field NOTHING MORE. *sigh* I'm tired of butting heads on anything IOM Void, despite the preconceptions you seem to have formed about me I actually enjoy space marines and IG nearly as uch as orks and i am still mulling over if I should get them as allies or not (more a money and collection issue than anything else)
Marines are generated with a base 30 in all stats in Deathwatch, and given a base 2d10 to their stats in things like Strength. Orks for those who don't recall start with a 25 and add the same 2d10. Literally its nearly identical on basic levels if they aren't using power armor but instead using scout armor. Also most marines who enjoy scout armor as opposed to Astartes power armor are fluff wise the youngest recruits and thus would have had less time to hone their bodies or experience. The main difference is Space marines have unnatural Strength which doubles their strength at start and orks pick it up along the way very quickly (rank 2-3 if I recall right) also an ork's strength is easily upgraded using the smallest exp needed for any stats in the class. Even an ork at rank 1 can easily sport 60+ and your 80 base is not accurate, your 30+2d10 and then modifying it for damage is different than actual strength it only gives 2 degrees of success in the game when opposed. It's very likely since orks are hardy and sport feats which make them amazing grapplers that a space marine would find his match once in hand to hand without that +2 you talk about.
on average a marine should have 41 strength which becomes 81 due to unnatural strength and 101 due to power armor, remove the power armor and you quickly see the drop goes down to 80's again and funnier still is the marines that roll 9 and lower are literally on par with infant orks. because it's entirely possible to have a 30ish strength as a marine at character generation lets say a 4 is rolled for strength. 30+4 = 34 even if he upgrades strength he is now set to 39 which using unnatural strength it become 39 with unnattural meaning he is hitting with 6's ... the same power an ork can produce at rank 1 as well.
Sorry that imply true statements like less strength and saying "less of an advantage" upset you all so much. but 20 points to strength is massive (i like that you disguised it as 2 tho...) you could spend months IRL building your character's strength through experience to replicate a similar effect (again orks are capable of doing it within their 1st level). If you have a problem with me saying something is a more even playing field but you are still more mobile and generally bettered armored i think you're (and i mean this as an inclusive statement to others not just yourself) perhaps too sensitive to the subject.
10,000 xp character vs. 5,000 xp character as well. with the xp needed to set an ork on par he is already outshining these categories but again you want to insist that a chapter of only 1000 men is always superior to orks under any condition even tap dancing in the nude so i am starting to see the futility in talking without ego or pride entering the prism of the conversation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 20:57:59
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
I'm just trolling you, tbh. Whether an ork is equal to a Space Marine outside of power armor or not is irrelevant since Marines are always in their armor anyway, and when they're not they still casually slaughter their way through dozens of orks just by having superior skill and speed.
As far as the thread's OP is concerned, the question is already answered. Space Marines > Orks by a pretty huge margin. The only thing really left to talk about is, you know, random stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 20:57:29
Also says scout armor is like buffed carapace armor (ie not the same as the ig stuff).
Plus it isn't powered.
Aka it doesn't increase their strength, which is all that matters.
It doesn't say they are pretty much the same at all.
Oh, and BMW, a Marine in fluff is signifigantly weaker without his armour? That isn't true, if we go by the main game, they are the same S, and if we go by Deathwatch, it adds 2 points to strength (At base they have eight).
I dunno all those fancy gizmos make it sound like powered. Ok I'll give you this one but lets think about space marine training. It takes about 10 years to have a mahreen implanted. A wild boy isn't even a year old and he has to survive in the wild against other orkinoids with sticks and stones. After that they might end up in a warband where they are (propably) accepted as a member. I'm guessing a space marine takes atleast another 10 years to become a fully fledged battle bro. In that time our ork recruit is easily towering over normal mahreens and eating them for breakfast. (Ghazzy rose up from boy to warboss in 6 years).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/05 21:33:59
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
There's been a lot of talk about fair. That's just not possible. Wars are won because real life isn't fair, if life was fair the first war would still be raging to this day with rocks & sharp sticks. All the chapters would be brutal, endless slufest with every single combatant dead. The last two would stab each to death at the same moment collapsing atop one another in a pool of mingled gore.
Twenty chapters of that, no matter how well written would suck the life from even the most dedicated Fanboy. I suggest taking the best attributes of each race and creating a chapter that illustrates that quality. As an example you could have a chapter where 1 marine fights a large number of orks. One on one but is defeated when finaly presented with a fight againt 50 orks &no way to out maneuver them.
RedAngel wrote: There's been a lot of talk about fair. That's just not possible. Wars are won because real life isn't fair, if life was fair the first war would still be raging to this day with rocks & sharp sticks. All the chapters would be brutal, endless slufest with every single combatant dead. The last two would stab each to death at the same moment collapsing atop one another in a pool of mingled gore.
Twenty chapters of that, no matter how well written would suck the life from even the most dedicated Fanboy. I suggest taking the best attributes of each race and creating a chapter that illustrates that quality. As an example you could have a chapter where 1 marine fights a large number of orks. One on one but is defeated when finaly presented with a fight againt 50 orks &no way to out maneuver them.
You have to understand how space Maureen Fanboyz are indoctrinated to accept as law in their own minds is something akin to this.
1 Marine vs 9001 orks
Pipe = thunderhammer btw....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/06 00:24:38
" I don't lead da Waagh I build it! " - Big-Mek Wurrzog
Member of 
DKoK Blog:
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
" - Big-Mek Wurrzog
List of Da Propahly Zogged!!! 
