champagne_socialist wrote:
I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't mean to be rude, but no, this hypothetical argument is not pointless and simply saying "every battle is different" does not make my points invalid or suddenly make your henchmen list-tailored army the best anti-GK list. You have failed to rebuttal my points individually and as a whole by simply "hand-waving" it away with the "every battle is different" supposition which you ironically don't realize would ALSO apply to your own henchmen list.

Your henchmen list is banking ONLY on two units that can potentially exploit the use of the psyccolum (since you can only have 2 HQ choices so only 2 squads would get the BS10 from said inquisitors). And you're forgetting about Gets Hot! for the plasma weaponry which will likely kill the henchman/servitor model wielding it unless you waste points to give them further survivability or the fact that all 3 weapon types have different ranges so you're unlikely to get the full firepower of all 3. It also doesn't ignore cover which the Grey Knights can hide behind. More importantly both the lascannons and plasma cannons require a good firing vantage point and are unable to shoot on the move. This lack of mobility can be easily exploited by the Grey Knights who can Deep Strike, shunt or outflank the unit which is very fragile by itself. Even just being shot by a depleted unit of Grey Knights would severely weaken the squad's damage output as with psybolt ammunition (which is almost guaranteed to be taken) you would be wounded on 2's and enough saves would be forced (or ignored) that the unit would lose most of its weaponry.

Also using Psykers is a terrible idea against GK. You have the Aegis making them take their Psychic tests at a -1 modifier meaning they have to pass it on a very mediocre Ld7. Then they have to get past the 4+ to 5+ deny the witch the Grey Knights have AND roll to see if you scatter AND roll to wound AND the Grey Knights likely get to roll their cover saves. There is a such a huge barrier against their effectiveness that you're better off taking a Leman Russ Demolisher through allies if you want a large AP2 blast template.

Seeing as how you're adamant in your position and unwilling to actually prove your side of the argument why bother posting in this thread? Did you expect showers of praise and sycophantic agreement? Judging from your previous behaviour in a previous thread of yours http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580243.page
I would say next time to actually think ahead and be prepared for criticism and debate considering this a forum, particularly in the tactics section, and accept that you can be wrong in your assumptions. You won't win any friends with this sort of attitude.

I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

You want to keep debating that is your choice but my opinion which will not change is that 15 plasma cannons that do not scatter and 15 plasma guns that are BS10 and 15 lascannons that are BS 10 all for only 1000 points will decimate GKs.

Also 3 units can have the psycocullum because I can have an inquisitor from codex inquisition join my army who can take the wargear. so that is 3 units in a 1 foc and 5 units in a 2x foc.

Anyone deep strikes wioth 12 inches of coteaz is going to get shot to pieces by his 'i been expecting you' rule.

I played against GK's on friday in a 2000 point game and I went 2nd yet I still tabled the guy halfway through my turn 3.

 FirePainter wrote:
While your squads do have some good firepower they are not optimal. Yes no scatter plas cannons are nice but GK can still get cover against them and that is if you are even in range and LOS. Interceptors can stayout of LOS then shunt in and destroy a squad in 1 turn of shooting and if they don't they can then assault. Also lascannons are not the best for taking out MEQ/TEQ they don't have the volume of fire even at BS 10 its just not enough shots to get through cover saves.

Using plasma guns you are entering into GK optimal firing range and not getting the benefit of rapid fire. You will be outshot by the GK squads. In addition, by using plasma cannons and lascannons you are very immobile if you want to keep your firepower strong. This gives advantage to the GK who already have good mobility.

Also as an aside to the topic: Why come to a discussion forum if you are set in your opinion and not wanting to actually discuss anything? It seems counter intuitive and a waste of time if you will not be swayed by the valid arguments put forward.

 grrrfranky wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't mean to be rude, but no, this hypothetical argument is not pointless and simply saying "every battle is different" does not make my points invalid or suddenly make your henchmen list-tailored army the best anti-GK list. You have failed to rebuttal my points individually and as a whole by simply "hand-waving" it away with the "every battle is different" supposition which you ironically don't realize would ALSO apply to your own henchmen list.

Your henchmen list is banking ONLY on two units that can potentially exploit the use of the psyccolum (since you can only have 2 HQ choices so only 2 squads would get the BS10 from said inquisitors). And you're forgetting about Gets Hot! for the plasma weaponry which will likely kill the henchman/servitor model wielding it unless you waste points to give them further survivability or the fact that all 3 weapon types have different ranges so you're unlikely to get the full firepower of all 3. It also doesn't ignore cover which the Grey Knights can hide behind. More importantly both the lascannons and plasma cannons require a good firing vantage point and are unable to shoot on the move. This lack of mobility can be easily exploited by the Grey Knights who can Deep Strike, shunt or outflank the unit which is very fragile by itself. Even just being shot by a depleted unit of Grey Knights would severely weaken the squad's damage output as with psybolt ammunition (which is almost guaranteed to be taken) you would be wounded on 2's and enough saves would be forced (or ignored) that the unit would lose most of its weaponry.

Also using Psykers is a terrible idea against GK. You have the Aegis making them take their Psychic tests at a -1 modifier meaning they have to pass it on a very mediocre Ld7. Then they have to get past the 4+ to 5+ deny the witch the Grey Knights have AND roll to see if you scatter AND roll to wound AND the Grey Knights likely get to roll their cover saves. There is a such a huge barrier against their effectiveness that you're better off taking a Leman Russ Demolisher through allies if you want a large AP2 blast template.

Seeing as how you're adamant in your position and unwilling to actually prove your side of the argument why bother posting in this thread? Did you expect showers of praise and sycophantic agreement? Judging from your previous behaviour in a previous thread of yours http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580243.page
I would say next time to actually think ahead and be prepared for criticism and debate considering this a forum, particularly in the tactics section, and accept that you can be wrong in your assumptions. You won't win any friends with this sort of attitude.

I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

You want to keep debating that is your choice but my opinion which will not change is that 15 plasma cannons that do not scatter and 15 plasma guns that are BS10 and 15 lascannons that are BS 10 all for only 1000 points will decimate GKs.

Also 3 units can have the psycocullum because I can have an inquisitor from codex inquisition join my army who can take the wargear. so that is 3 units in a 1 foc and 5 units in a 2x foc.

Anyone deep strikes wioth 12 inches of coteaz is going to get shot to pieces by his 'i been expecting you' rule.

I played against GK's on friday in a 2000 point game and I went 2nd yet I still tabled the guy halfway through my turn 3.

I'm guessing you were playing with little or no LoS blocking terrain for that to happen. What was your list and your opponent's, and what was the terrain set up?

 ductvader wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

So, I'm facing you...why don't I just deepstrike most of my army around you and shoot your 4+ or worse guys before you ever get a shot off?

It's not a reliable tactic overall.


Don't fight fire with fire...fight it with dirt...coat the boys in silver with too many shots or bodies and they go down.

And, you keep bringing up a psyocculum as your "superpowerful" go-to for all arguments...when the henchmen themselves are lackluster...why not just ally a psyocculum to a better equipped long range army?

That cancels the idea of henchmen being the strongest counter right there.

champagne_socialist wrote:
I also don't think we should be talking about cover because every board is different, there may not be cover or their may be cover

champagne_socialist wrote:
If I want to get around that I put all my plasma cannons on top of a skypad with coteaz up there so anyone who deep strikes 12 inches within him gets shot by every weapon in his squad as soon as they land.

 ductvader wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

So, I'm facing you...why don't I just deepstrike most of my army around you and shoot your 4+ or worse guys before you ever get a shot off?

It's not a reliable tactic overall.


Don't fight fire with fire...fight it with dirt...coat the boys in silver with too many shots or bodies and they go down.

And, you keep bringing up a psyocculum as your "superpowerful" go-to for all arguments...when the henchmen themselves are lackluster...why not just ally a psyocculum to a better equipped long range army?

That cancels the idea of henchmen being the strongest counter right there.

 Grimskul wrote:
I think this more or less sums up this thread given the OP's repeated refusal to actually come to terms with the arguments presented and he either changes the goalposts of his supposed maximized anti-GK list or repeats how great it is with BS10 PLASMA/LASCANNONS even though it's clear that he's overestimating their power against a properly fielded GK list with mobility that can circumvent it.

 exploited751 wrote:
3 Techmarines with orbital
1 GM with orbital
1 Inq Karazmazov

5 LB orbitals that makes any psyker it touches (not even wounds) peril. Then you resolve the str 6 hit.

 ductvader wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
I also don't think we should be talking about cover because every board is different, there may not be cover or their may be cover

What?
...
...
...
No.

champagne_socialist wrote:
If I want to get around that I put all my plasma cannons on top of a skypad with coteaz up there so anyone who deep strikes 12 inches within him gets shot by every weapon in his squad as soon as they land.

Now you just lost a Psyocculum...to make a valid argument you can't keep changing the scenario.

 Grimskul wrote:

 grrrfranky wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't mean to be rude, but no, this hypothetical argument is not pointless and simply saying "every battle is different" does not make my points invalid or suddenly make your henchmen list-tailored army the best anti-GK list. You have failed to rebuttal my points individually and as a whole by simply "hand-waving" it away with the "every battle is different" supposition which you ironically don't realize would ALSO apply to your own henchmen list.

Your henchmen list is banking ONLY on two units that can potentially exploit the use of the psyccolum (since you can only have 2 HQ choices so only 2 squads would get the BS10 from said inquisitors). And you're forgetting about Gets Hot! for the plasma weaponry which will likely kill the henchman/servitor model wielding it unless you waste points to give them further survivability or the fact that all 3 weapon types have different ranges so you're unlikely to get the full firepower of all 3. It also doesn't ignore cover which the Grey Knights can hide behind. More importantly both the lascannons and plasma cannons require a good firing vantage point and are unable to shoot on the move. This lack of mobility can be easily exploited by the Grey Knights who can Deep Strike, shunt or outflank the unit which is very fragile by itself. Even just being shot by a depleted unit of Grey Knights would severely weaken the squad's damage output as with psybolt ammunition (which is almost guaranteed to be taken) you would be wounded on 2's and enough saves would be forced (or ignored) that the unit would lose most of its weaponry.

Also using Psykers is a terrible idea against GK. You have the Aegis making them take their Psychic tests at a -1 modifier meaning they have to pass it on a very mediocre Ld7. Then they have to get past the 4+ to 5+ deny the witch the Grey Knights have AND roll to see if you scatter AND roll to wound AND the Grey Knights likely get to roll their cover saves. There is a such a huge barrier against their effectiveness that you're better off taking a Leman Russ Demolisher through allies if you want a large AP2 blast template.

Seeing as how you're adamant in your position and unwilling to actually prove your side of the argument why bother posting in this thread? Did you expect showers of praise and sycophantic agreement? Judging from your previous behaviour in a previous thread of yours http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/580243.page
I would say next time to actually think ahead and be prepared for criticism and debate considering this a forum, particularly in the tactics section, and accept that you can be wrong in your assumptions. You won't win any friends with this sort of attitude.

I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

You want to keep debating that is your choice but my opinion which will not change is that 15 plasma cannons that do not scatter and 15 plasma guns that are BS10 and 15 lascannons that are BS 10 all for only 1000 points will decimate GKs.

Also 3 units can have the psycocullum because I can have an inquisitor from codex inquisition join my army who can take the wargear. so that is 3 units in a 1 foc and 5 units in a 2x foc.

Anyone deep strikes wioth 12 inches of coteaz is going to get shot to pieces by his 'i been expecting you' rule.

I played against GK's on friday in a 2000 point game and I went 2nd yet I still tabled the guy halfway through my turn 3.

I'm guessing you were playing with little or no LoS blocking terrain for that to happen. What was your list and your opponent's, and what was the terrain set up?

 Arbiter wrote:
This is a pointless argument, you want to kill GK play necron air force, you want to play henchmen and get raped my GKSS go ahead no one cares, just remember that henchmen arn't affective as other.

Ps. Don't bother to reply.

 exploited751 wrote:
Any GK unit you touch will die with only FNP allowed. So who cares where it goes. Target the center then win?

Also presence if you don't like the roll.

You can just take (2) 55 point Inq from the inquisition codex for presence.

champagne_socialist wrote:Because they are not valid arguments. An interceptor squad with psy ammo is 150 points for 5 models. If they shunt they are effectively shunting to take out a 60 point 3 plasma cannon squad and inquisiotor. They won't wipe out the squad as servitors have 4+ save and inquisitors in my army have 3+ save. interceptors who shunt CANNOT assaut that turn so they are then left in the open to be assaulted by 5 death cult assassins (75 pts) who with 4 power weapon attacks str 4 ws 5 int 6 will wipe out the interceptors. repeat the same process for any models that shunt. Playing GK's I leave my combat troops behind my shooting troops to counter attack.

I also don't think we should be talking about cover because every board is different, there may not be cover or their may be cover but if there is cover such as trees etc it means the GK's will be moving slower as difficult terrain tests will be taken and thus I get more shooting against them.

The only reason I take lascannons is because they are joakeros so they buff the squad, can give them all +1 armour saves or an extra 12 inch range or everyone gets an invun save etc etc But at BS 10 it is basically an auto kill with a lascannon.

champagne_socialist wrote:.
I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

You want to keep debating that is your choice but my opinion which will not change is that 15 plasma cannons that do not scatter and 15 plasma guns that are BS10 and 15 lascannons that are BS 10 all for only 1000 points will decimate GKs.

Also 3 units can have the psycocullum because I can have an inquisitor from codex inquisition join my army who can take the wargear. so that is 3 units in a 1 foc and 5 units in a 2x foc.

Anyone deep strikes wioth 12 inches of coteaz is going to get shot to pieces by his 'i been expecting you' rule.

Grimskul wrote:I think this more or less sums up this thread given the OP's repeated refusal to actually come to terms with the arguments presented and he either changes the goalposts of his supposed maximized anti-GK list or repeats how great it is with BS10 PLASMA/LASCANNONS even though it's clear that he's overestimating their power against a properly fielded GK list with mobility that can circumvent it.

champagne_socialist wrote:What kills GKs? AP2.

 Krellnus wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:Because they are not valid arguments. An interceptor squad with psy ammo is 150 points for 5 models. If they shunt they are effectively shunting to take out a 60 point 3 plasma cannon squad and inquisiotor. They won't wipe out the squad as servitors have 4+ save and inquisitors in my army have 3+ save. interceptors who shunt CANNOT assaut that turn so they are then left in the open to be assaulted by 5 death cult assassins (75 pts) who with 4 power weapon attacks str 4 ws 5 int 6 will wipe out the interceptors. repeat the same process for any models that shunt. Playing GK's I leave my combat troops behind my shooting troops to counter attack.

I also don't think we should be talking about cover because every board is different, there may not be cover or their may be cover but if there is cover such as trees etc it means the GK's will be moving slower as difficult terrain tests will be taken and thus I get more shooting against them.

The only reason I take lascannons is because they are joakeros so they buff the squad, can give them all +1 armour saves or an extra 12 inch range or everyone gets an invun save etc etc But at BS 10 it is basically an auto kill with a lascannon.

But they are valid arguments, especially since every time someone brings up a counter point you move the goalposts, are your henchmen squads 3 plasma cannons/3 plasma gun/3 Jokaero or are they 3 plasma cannons or are they 5 DCA? They can't be everything so what is it?

champagne_socialist wrote:.
I have rebutted your arguments with the fact that I can plasma cannon spam with 15 plasma cannons in a 2000 point liost that DO NOT SCATTER. Then there would be 15 plasma guns that are all BS 10 and 15 lascannons all BS 10 and that is only the 5hq and their squad. I could then spam more plasma guns and psykers who will for 40 pooints give off a str 6 ap2 large blast.

You want to keep debating that is your choice but my opinion which will not change is that 15 plasma cannons that do not scatter and 15 plasma guns that are BS10 and 15 lascannons that are BS 10 all for only 1000 points will decimate GKs.

Also 3 units can have the psycocullum because I can have an inquisitor from codex inquisition join my army who can take the wargear. so that is 3 units in a 1 foc and 5 units in a 2x foc.

Anyone deep strikes wioth 12 inches of coteaz is going to get shot to pieces by his 'i been expecting you' rule.

But you haven't rebutted gak, you've just kept going "but I have this" or "lol I'll just hit them with this" you clearly do not have the capacity to accept criticism and have been told this by a mod before, so you may want to get your gak together. You keep mentioning your magical plasma cannons that don't scatter, but you conveniently forget that if most people see you spamming blasts, they will spread out to close 2" coherency, making it lucky if you get more than one hit.

Grimskul wrote:I think this more or less sums up this thread given the OP's repeated refusal to actually come to terms with the arguments presented and he either changes the goalposts of his supposed maximized anti-GK list or repeats how great it is with BS10 PLASMA/LASCANNONS even though it's clear that he's overestimating their power against a properly fielded GK list with mobility that can circumvent it.

This isn't the first thread he's done it in either.

champagne_socialist wrote:What kills GKs? AP2.

Wrong, its the same thing as all other MEQs, but moreso, weight of fire.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Assuming no cover, max GK spread, and every plasma cannon hitting and not overheating, you have successfully killed 12.5 GKs. That is less points killed than you spent on plasma cannons, assuming strikes were your targets. It also requires all of your plasma cannons to shoot at 1-2 GK squads.

Assuming 15 plasma guns as well, 8.33 marines die from the BS10 ones (24''), and 1.875 marines from the BS3 ones (TL by prescience, at 24''). Totals to roughly 23 marines dead, assuming no cover saves.

So at 14pts per plasmagun and 20pts per cannon, you've done 20*23 = 460pts worth of damage firing 15*20 + 15*14 = 510pts worth of weaponry. Not taking into account the cost of prescience boat inquisitors and those carrying the psyocculums, which make those plasmaguns and cannons just cost more. Base efficiency is bad enough and only gets worse, even assuming no cover benefits for the GKs.

This is a mathematically inefficient method for killing Grey Knights.

rigeld2 wrote:
Take that army against a Necron army.

How's it do?

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Assuming no cover, max GK spread, and every plasma cannon hitting and not overheating, you have successfully killed 12.5 GKs. That is less points killed than you spent on plasma cannons, assuming strikes were your targets. It also requires all of your plasma cannons to shoot at 1-2 GK squads.

Assuming 15 plasma guns as well, 8.33 marines die from the BS10 ones (24''), and 1.875 marines from the BS3 ones (TL by prescience, at 24''). Totals to roughly 23 marines dead, assuming no cover saves.

So at 14pts per plasmagun and 20pts per cannon, you've done 20*23 = 460pts worth of damage firing 15*20 + 15*14 = 510pts worth of weaponry. Not taking into account the cost of prescience boat inquisitors and those carrying the psyocculums, which make those plasmaguns and cannons just cost more. Base efficiency is bad enough and only gets worse, even assuming no cover benefits for the GKs.

This is a mathematically inefficient method for killing Grey Knights.

champagne_socialist wrote:

so if 23 marines die from just the plasma guns/cannons that is just 510 points of my 2000 point army that has fired and already a 1/4 of the opposing army has been wiped out and the only shots I have done is from my hq squads and that is not even the full hq squads. I normally run 2 joakeros in each hq squad for the buffs so that would be 10 lascannon shots. so that is 850 points that has just fired 23 marines die from plasma and I would guess another 7/8 from the bs 10/ prescienced lascannons.

so going by probability 30 marines will die from 850 points of my shooting. I would then have 850 points of shooting left (5 hqs take 300) ptswhich in my army includes multiple squads of 3 plasma gun acoloytes in chimeras (4 squads) and vindicator assassin. I then have 3 squads of death cult assassins (5 in each squad) as a counter attack unit which sit near key shooting units ( death cult assassins 4 power weapon attacks on the charge ws 5 init 6 str 4). which leaves me with 115 points to kit the inquisitors out with power armour and any weaponary such as condemnor boltguns which will be bs 10 and auto perils psykers by just hitting them.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

so if 23 marines die from just the plasma guns/cannons that is just 510 points of my 2000 point army that has fired and already a 1/4 of the opposing army has been wiped out and the only shots I have done is from my hq squads and that is not even the full hq squads. I normally run 2 joakeros in each hq squad for the buffs so that would be 10 lascannon shots. so that is 850 points that has just fired 23 marines die from plasma and I would guess another 7/8 from the bs 10/ prescienced lascannons.

so going by probability 30 marines will die from 850 points of my shooting. I would then have 850 points of shooting left (5 hqs take 300) ptswhich in my army includes multiple squads of 3 plasma gun acoloytes in chimeras (4 squads) and vindicator assassin. I then have 3 squads of death cult assassins (5 in each squad) as a counter attack unit which sit near key shooting units ( death cult assassins 4 power weapon attacks on the charge ws 5 init 6 str 4). which leaves me with 115 points to kit the inquisitors out with power armour and any weaponary such as condemnor boltguns which will be bs 10 and auto perils psykers by just hitting them.

I don't think you understood my numbers. You killed 460pts with 510pts. You saying "just 510pts of my 2000" and "1/4 of the opposing army" is approximately the same, but skewed against you. Your 510pts killed his 460pts. You spent more points to kill less of his. That is inefficient.

Your Jokaeros will kill another 8ish marines. Now 850pts to kill 31 marines, which is 850pts spent to kill 620pts. That's an even worse ratio of points killed to points spent. Not better. Again, not counting the Inquisitors providing prescience and psyocculum. Which factor in the points cost (unless that's included in the 850).

Now, let's look at those plasma acolytes in chimeras. Absolutely stock chimera puts you at 97pts. So at 24'' you have 3 plasma shots (at BS3, so 1.5hits, you kill 1-2 marines), 3 Heavy Bolter shots (killing 1/3 of a marine), and 3 Multilaser shots (killing ~.42 of a marine). So assuming high averages for everything involved, you kill 3 marines (60pts assuming GK strikes) for your 97pts. That's even worse than the Jokaeros + Plasma.

Condemnor boltguns were dismissed earlier in this thread, as they at best kill a marine (base cost of the inquisitor is higher than the marine, so this is also inefficient). So the DCA are literally the only efficient thing you have to kill them. They kill ~6.667 marines for the investment of 75pts. Literally the only ratio out of the above favorable for you. Everything else is you spending more points on guns than he does on bodies. Using this method, the GK player can actually swamp you in bodies. When that's even possible for GK - you are doing something terribly wrong.

champagne_socialist wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

so if 23 marines die from just the plasma guns/cannons that is just 510 points of my 2000 point army that has fired and already a 1/4 of the opposing army has been wiped out and the only shots I have done is from my hq squads and that is not even the full hq squads. I normally run 2 joakeros in each hq squad for the buffs so that would be 10 lascannon shots. so that is 850 points that has just fired 23 marines die from plasma and I would guess another 7/8 from the bs 10/ prescienced lascannons.

so going by probability 30 marines will die from 850 points of my shooting. I would then have 850 points of shooting left (5 hqs take 300) ptswhich in my army includes multiple squads of 3 plasma gun acoloytes in chimeras (4 squads) and vindicator assassin. I then have 3 squads of death cult assassins (5 in each squad) as a counter attack unit which sit near key shooting units ( death cult assassins 4 power weapon attacks on the charge ws 5 init 6 str 4). which leaves me with 115 points to kit the inquisitors out with power armour and any weaponary such as condemnor boltguns which will be bs 10 and auto perils psykers by just hitting them.

I don't think you understood my numbers. You killed 460pts with 510pts. You saying "just 510pts of my 2000" and "1/4 of the opposing army" is approximately the same, but skewed against you. Your 510pts killed his 460pts. You spent more points to kill less of his. That is inefficient.

Your Jokaeros will kill another 8ish marines. Now 850pts to kill 31 marines, which is 850pts spent to kill 620pts. That's an even worse ratio of points killed to points spent. Not better. Again, not counting the Inquisitors providing prescience and psyocculum. Which factor in the points cost (unless that's included in the 850).

Now, let's look at those plasma acolytes in chimeras. Absolutely stock chimera puts you at 97pts. So at 24'' you have 3 plasma shots (at BS3, so 1.5hits, you kill 1-2 marines), 3 Heavy Bolter shots (killing 1/3 of a marine), and 3 Multilaser shots (killing ~.42 of a marine). So assuming high averages for everything involved, you kill 3 marines (60pts assuming GK strikes) for your 97pts. That's even worse than the Jokaeros + Plasma.

Condemnor boltguns were dismissed earlier in this thread, as they at best kill a marine (base cost of the inquisitor is higher than the marine, so this is also inefficient). So the DCA are literally the only efficient thing you have to kill them. They kill ~6.667 marines for the investment of 75pts. Literally the only ratio out of the above favorable for you. Everything else is you spending more points on guns than he does on bodies. Using this method, the GK player can actually swamp you in bodies. When that's even possible for GK - you are doing something terribly wrong.

I would be happy if i took out 35-40 marines in one turn. Also as it is 6th edition all casualties are from the front so me killing just the front row will severley weaken his army as his troops will be even further behind and as you spaced the GK's 2 inches aopart it means the 2nd row is a full 2 inches away from the first row so me killing the front row is effectively pushing the gks back 3 inches (guy at the fronts base is about an inch).

if you dismiss a condemnor boltgun that is your choice but an auto kill on a hit (which would be on a 2 followed by a 2 bs 10 with a psycocullum) followed by a str 5 bolter is pretty impressive. for 25 points you are getting a boltgun with psy ammo and an instant wound on psykers.

we are going around in circles and none of us are 'right' because there is no law or fact behind the argument. I used this army against a GK list and I won. it was an impressive GK army with dreadknights and interceptors and a lot of psycannons etc etc. Reason why I won was simply because of the amount of plasma shots. they just decimate squads because they are str 7 ap2, even a draigo list would suffer against that many plasma weapons. I am not saying in theory my list will do well, I am saying in practice it has done well in the 3 games aagainst 3 different gk opponents I have played.



Next time I play against GK's I will film it so it is a mini battle rep and post it on youtube and post the link here.

champagne_socialist wrote:

I would be happy if i took out 35-40 marines in one turn. Also as it is 6th edition all casualties are from the front so me killing just the front row will severley weaken his army as his troops will be even further behind and as you spaced the GK's 2 inches aopart it means the 2nd row is a full 2 inches away from the first row so me killing the front row is effectively pushing the gks back 3 inches (guy at the fronts base is about an inch).

if you dismiss a condemnor boltgun that is your choice but an auto kill on a hit (which would be on a 2 followed by a 2 bs 10 with a psycocullum) followed by a str 5 bolter is pretty impressive. for 25 points you are getting a boltgun with psy ammo and an instant wound on psykers.

we are going around in circles and none of us are 'right' because there is no law or fact behind the argument. I used this army against a GK list and I won. it was an impressive GK army with dreadknights and interceptors and a lot of psycannons etc etc. Reason why I won was simply because of the amount of plasma shots. they just decimate squads because they are str 7 ap2, even a draigo list would suffer against that many plasma weapons.



Next time I play against GK's I will film it so it is a mini battle rep and post it on youtube and post the link here.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

I would be happy if i took out 35-40 marines in one turn. Also as it is 6th edition all casualties are from the front so me killing just the front row will severley weaken his army as his troops will be even further behind and as you spaced the GK's 2 inches aopart it means the 2nd row is a full 2 inches away from the first row so me killing the front row is effectively pushing the gks back 3 inches (guy at the fronts base is about an inch).

if you dismiss a condemnor boltgun that is your choice but an auto kill on a hit (which would be on a 2 followed by a 2 bs 10 with a psycocullum) followed by a str 5 bolter is pretty impressive. for 25 points you are getting a boltgun with psy ammo and an instant wound on psykers.

we are going around in circles and none of us are 'right' because there is no law or fact behind the argument. I used this army against a GK list and I won. it was an impressive GK army with dreadknights and interceptors and a lot of psycannons etc etc. Reason why I won was simply because of the amount of plasma shots. they just decimate squads because they are str 7 ap2, even a draigo list would suffer against that many plasma weapons.



Next time I play against GK's I will film it so it is a mini battle rep and post it on youtube and post the link here.

Especially a draigo list. Bringing 2+ saves vs. AP2 is a terrible idea.

And there is fact being posted. Mathematical fact. Both of my previous posts had it and used it to back up my argument, which is as follows: GK Henchment plasma spam is not a points-efficient method for killing Grey Knight 3+ save models. The points spent vs. points killed margins support this.

I look forward to seeing the video, because at this point I'm strongly questioning the table and tactics being used that are leading to these results.