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 Lobomalo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
I read the thread that you guys got closed that was about permissive/restrictive. Logic defeats your last premise as does general obviousness, but like I said, I don't mind working with permissions, it saves me some arguments

It is good that "don't mind working with permissions" because that is how the ruleset is written.

You need to have permission to do something. If permission is not there you can not take that action.

Except this permissive thing you guys like to have on these forums, seems to only exist on these forums and not in the actual stores where people, at least in all the stores I frequent, play.

So it's cool with you if I insist on a dance off to see who goes first?
And of course, we have a thumb war to see if you hit my guys.
Oh, and don't forget your Theremin so we can determine who wins the game, regardless of what happens on the field.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Lobo, I appreciate that you don't agree with the concept, but the idea of a permissive rules set is pretty widely accepted.

In any event, this thread is NOT the place to rehash those arguments. Let's please not go over them again here. I'd like NOT to have this thread locked.


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 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

I might be wrong, but given the Unbound rules, I thought a unit with a point cost COULD be purchased, even without the unit normally needed to unlock it.

I think this is not the case. There are a number of restrictions on Unbound lists, and there's nothing that gives specific permission to override, say, Honor Guard's requirement to have a Chapter Master in the army.

"Simply use whichever units from your collection you want." That definitely seems to give permission to use the Drop Pods, even without the squad. You still have to pay the points of course.

That does NOT give you permission to field the selected models in an illegal manner, however. (Like putting scouts in a Drop Pod.)

And I would say that taking Honour Guard without a CM IS fielding them in an illegal manner.
"You may take one unit of Honour Guard for each Chapter Master in your army" (SM Codex 163). That's more specific than the Unbound "Take all the models," and it's also in a Codex, which means it wins in the specific-general contest as well as the BRB-Codex contest. Two points in favour of abiding by the specific, codex restriction.

Edit: But we're also talking about Drop Pods. My parallel with Honour Guard probably isn't completely correct, because DTs don't have a little comment like the HG do. Where's the part in the rules that actually says, "You may only buy a DT as a DT, and not on its own"? I suppose there isn't a FOC slot for "Dedicated Transport," so it cannot be alone in a Forged list. But in an Unbound list, that doesn't abide by FOC, that doesn't apply.
Thus, you may buy DTs for an Unbound list without buying the units that typically go inside. Unbound 1850pt army of 37 empty Deathwind Drop Pods? Go for it!

Interesting line of thought:
Would it not be the absence of a 'Dedicated Transport Slot' on the Force Organization Chart preventing the purchase of a Drop Pod independently of the Unit?

Hard to explain given the 'does not take up a slot' Rule on the Dedicated Transports themselves, but I will try and Flesh this thought out a little:
This boils down to the requirement that all Units have a Battlefield Role, a Role which is dictated based on their Entries within the Army List, Heavy Units fill the Heavy Battlefield Role for example. The slots on the Force Organization Charts form us what what Battlefield Roles are legal choices to fill the Detachment with, nothing more or less then that. The lack of a Dedicated Transport Slot, or available Battlefield Role, within the current Force Organization Charts is what prevents the Transport from being purchased at all. However, Dedicated Transports have a back door because their Rules inform us that they fill the same Battlefield Role as the Unit they are purchased for. They then become a Troop Choice if purchased with a Unit of Troops, giving them a legal place in the Detachment, which also doesn't take up an available slot.

JinxDragon wrote:
Interesting line of thought:
Would it not be the absence of a 'Dedicated Transport Slot' on the Force Organization Chart preventing the purchase of a Drop Pod independently of the Unit?

I believe that is exactly what I said above.

I'd still like someone to rebut my point on Honour Guard in Unbound. I think I'm right, but if someone can make the contrary case...

He is your rebuttal Elric:

"The Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: simply use whichever units from your collection you want." (Choosing your army section, Unbound armies sub-section).

So using honor guard is using "whichever units from your collection you want."

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Interesting line of thought:
Would it not be the absence of a 'Dedicated Transport Slot' on the Force Organization Chart preventing the purchase of a Drop Pod independently of the Unit?

I believe that is exactly what I said above.

I'd still like someone to rebut my point on Honour Guard in Unbound. I think I'm right, but if someone can make the contrary case...

And I said the page before...

Just agreeing it is an interesting line of thought:
Without a Force Organization Chart there is no minimal and maximum Requirements for which Battlefield Roles can be taken, so why not select one which will fill a 'Dedicated Transport Role?'

Yeah go nuts Coteaz and 28 Psybacks in 1500 or just go all DT in something else.

 DeathReaper wrote:
He is your rebuttal Elric:

"The Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: simply use whichever units from your collection you want." (Choosing your army section, Unbound armies sub-section).

So using honor guard is using "whichever units from your collection you want."

Yet isn't the codex rule far more specific? It cannot be blanket permission to ignore all rules, otherwise points limits would be overridden as well....

JinxDragon wrote:

This boils down to the requirement that all Units have a Battlefield Role, a Role which is dictated based on their Entries within the Army List, Heavy Units fill the Heavy Battlefield Role for example. The slots on the Force Organization Charts form us what what Battlefield Roles are legal choices to fill the Detachment with, nothing more or less then that.

This isn't exactly true. An imperial knight takes up no battlefield role, and yet is a legal purchase for any army (unbound and battleforged alike)


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 DeathReaper wrote:

Yet isn't the codex rule far more specific? It cannot be blanket permission to ignore all rules, otherwise points limits would be overridden as well....

Point costs are optional anyways. It's up to you and your opponent to determine if you want to use them, and if so, what the point level is. The biggest take away from this edition is that games are more of a prearranged affair rather than a simple throw down like it used to be. Since I highly doubt unbound will see much competitive play, I'd say anything goes is pretty much the rule-of-thumb as long as your opponent is fine with it.

Actually Imperial Knights do have a Battlefield Role, called 'other,' which uses the Imperial Knights icon as it's symbol and has the following text to explain it:
Some publications introduce other types of Battlefield Role, such as Imperial Knights, and will include all the rules you need to include them as part of your army.

Ah, fair enough. I missed that one.