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Made in gb
Battlefield Professional




Norwich, UK

weeble1000 wrote:
Then there's the art...art art art art!


Yeah...

Costing me £2,000 just for the artwork for my book.

Wings of the Aquilla - A 40K aviation story.

Utherwald Press Facebook Page - An Indie RPG Publisher.

Utherwald Press Blog 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA


Thank you for that. I was afraid of that. Something I am not interested in. Not good at that stuff like that, but luckily for my wife, she knows a bit of that. Hopefully if this takes off, she can take care of that department for me.


This line bothers me greatly, because it is very much the seeds of your own downfall. I know it is not your intent, but this is very flippant towards what are going to be your biggest problems. Sorry to be blunt about this, but if you're going to be making this a business you need to know business. Doesn't matter how interested or not you are in it. Playing it off as not a big deal is setting yourself up for disaster.

Get involved. Get knowledge. You can't expect to simply ride rules writing to success. It doesn't work.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Thank you all for your comment. I am surprised I received so many more comments after I went to bed. Not feeling so well so can't really comment on all of them. I am going to read the links that were provided, thank you for them.

Yes I will play test, play test play test as a lot of you suggested. I will try and get others to play test as well so I get a different opinion. I don't want to fall in the GW trap and say my way is the best way and think that is all that is needed. Would anyone here want to play test and help me?

 curran12 wrote:

Thank you for that. I was afraid of that. Something I am not interested in. Not good at that stuff like that, but luckily for my wife, she knows a bit of that. Hopefully if this takes off, she can take care of that department for me.


This line bothers me greatly, because it is very much the seeds of your own downfall. I know it is not your intent, but this is very flippant towards what are going to be your biggest problems. Sorry to be blunt about this, but if you're going to be making this a business you need to know business. Doesn't matter how interested or not you are in it. Playing it off as not a big deal is setting yourself up for disaster.

Get involved. Get knowledge. You can't expect to simply ride rules writing to success. It doesn't work.


No you are right. I am going to have to learn how to run a business. I have no choice in it. I didn't mean to make the comment to be flippant, and afterwards reading it again, I guess it came out that way, but I promise it wasn't meant like that. I know this is a big deal and if I do make a company for it to get off the ground it will have to be taken seriously.

I am going to start on my rules right now. I do have a question about scale, but will make a new post thread about that.

So again, I want to thank everyone for all your suggestions and help. I don't care how blunt anyone is, blunt opinion is an honest helpful opinion.

Now I have another question. I believe I asked, is anyone here willing to be testers for me, or at least read over what I have and tell me what you think.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

Davor,

Right now, I think you shouldn't be looking for 'play testers', per se.

My personal methodology, and this is just me, is to develop the rules 'in house' with either the extant development team (if there is one) or a small group of intimate friends who don't mind helping you develop the system. Write, play, discuss, play, play, write, discuss, play, etc.

In the midst of this, getting some feedback on ideas is okay, but you are going to have to learn how to use the feedback you get to the best effect, because you won't be able to get impressions on a system as a whole by chatting on forums about it. You'll be getting feedback on concepts in relative isolation, from people who haven't actually played the game.

Once you've gotten the game to where you think it is the best thing since sliced bread, now it is a good time to get it written up decently, get whatever prototype stuff you need together (cards, tokens, miniatures [even appropriately-sized paper models], and open the play testing up to some folks that you are familiar with. Take it down to the game store, run some demos, talk to people, and see if anything major pops up. You'll definitely find some things you missed, and you might discover some sort of catastrophic cascade failure that you had not realized was there.

Remember that you can always 'scale up' play testing, but that the more you scale up, the harder it can be to interpret the feedback into meaningful, productive revisions to the system. I like to think of play testing as concentric rings. every time you think the game is finished, expand your play test radius and see what happens, but starting small an getting a rule set that actually functions is a very good step towards interesting people to play test for you. And not to be rude, but I honestly skipped over reading the rules ideas you posted earlier. I hadn't remarked that I had done it, but now that I think about it, I totally skipped over it and didn't give them a thought.

As someone who has otherwise responded substantively in the thread, it speaks to how easy it is to ignore looking at rules stuff that doesn't seem 'worth the time'. It takes effort to read rules, think about them, and offer feedback, and that's more interesting to do if the system is ostensibly new and functional in some respect.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/29 19:01:21


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Thanks again Weeble, I will try that.


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Dwarf Runelord Banging an Anvil





Way on back in the deep caves

When you are ready I would like to give your rules a try with our small group. We have everything from Grognards to noobs.

Trust in Iron and Stone  
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Read this:


You might want to start with something simpler before you try to take on the massive behemoth that is a large scale tabletop game. If you have any younger children (7-10) hanging around, try to design a board game for them first. It might sound silly, but children make for a great right of passage for game designers, since they tend to respond so candidly. You need to create simple, straightforward rulesets that are easy to be understood while also being engaging if you want a hope of getting and keeping their attention.

Once you have one or two of those under your belt, then you might want to try for something more mature.

 stormwell wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
Then there's the art...art art art art!


Yeah...

Costing me £2,000 just for the artwork for my book.


Honestly, for a full book worth of artwork, £2000 actually sounds pretty cheap.

Speaking of which, I'm sure there are plenty of pretty great artists out there looking for work. Like this guy. Seems like a pretty swell dude. I'd imagine he's pretty handsome, too.
   
Made in ca
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





Manitoba

You can always start with minis from other companies for your game. I found while looking for bits a lot of mini companies that make models of various scales on their own without rules.

Many of them are modern/world war/inbetween era plastic soldiers for some of the not-so-huge named skirmish games.

If you want to start smaller you can always buy 100 green and tan plastic army men from a dollar store.

Best bet is I think for starts is to create rules for a game, hash it out amongst your local game group/family with some honest criticism, and then slowly push it online to other groups via facebook and such. Once your rules are concrete, then you can creep towards business models.

It'd probably be more fruitful than jumping headfirst into making a company and then rushing to make games. A slow underground approach might work.

But that's just my opinion.

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





weeble1000 wrote:
Tyron wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
Tyron wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier for him to get someone to make the prototype models and moulds and he just learns to cast them and eventually make moulds to replace old ones?


Mold making is pretty cheap, so that's a viable option, at least with spin casting. And once you have a mold in your hands, lightbulbs start going off.

If you are making silicone molds, gak man, just make 'em yourself until you figure out how to do it right. You can make pretty good silicone molds with just some cardboard, clay, and a glue gun. There's certainly more complicated ways to make a silicone mold though.


From what I've gathered from the OP his time would be better spent just getting the concepts to the sculptors and then mold makers, sell the models through a kickstarter while developing rules on the side. When he develops his rules into a game and he will need professional help and that costs and with the capital from the kickstarter this can give him the leverage needed.

Once he is in a position, learn the mold making and casting process, train someone he trusts to take over so he can further the rules development and then do a kickstarter with that.

But to get there he will need a lot of help to get the ball rolling I feel.


Sure, and throw money down a hole. A trained monkey can learn to spin cast. Casting and mold making are not terribly complex skills. Anyone can learn how to do it. In any business, you've got to decide what it is worth spending your time on and what it is worth paying others to do, but the most consistent thing I have heard when starting my own miniatures business has been that one of the most important things is being able to do as much production as you can in house.

If you aren't sculpting your miniatures, you already have a huge set of expenses. If you aren't creating your own artwork, you already have a huge set of expenses. If you aren't doing your own graphic design, you already have a huge set of expenses.

Those are all skills that A) rely heavily on talent, and B) take years of work and often college education to do well. A trained monkey can cast miniatures, so it is a skill worth learning to do yourself.


You keep going on about a trained monkey but someone trained it (the key point which you're missing). Who will train Davor? You? Unless someone will train him personally (unlikely because top tier don't give away trade secrets) he's on his own with some youtube videos and online guides and that will probably cost him more in resources and time when he could be making money instead.

As for the sculpting and artwork. Again he will have to pay people because he hasn't indicated he has those abilities.

If he truly believes in his heart this will work he will need a lot of luck finding people locally to help him with the above at a low fee or free until he makes a return and help him increase his strengths (whatever they may be) otherwise it will be an uphill struggle.

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Yeah I am not good in artwork at all. I will have to hire someone or someone willing to go in it with me.

But for now, this is just for me and my son. We want to have fun again with our minis that we bought. I thought with all the time an energy I am putting into the rules I could maybe try and make a company. I got the idea from my son when he said, "why not Daddy?"

So that is when I thought, "yes, why not?" Let me come to Dakka and see what would be needed, and I have learnt a lot from what everyone has told me. While it is daunting, I will try and see what happens. Now I have an idea what is needed and now I see what I also need to learn.

I totally forgot about art work, and accounting, so I am glad that was brought up.

So this is how I am going to start. First I will make my rules. Me and my son will play them. Then I will try and get others to play it, take their opinions and see what needs changing.

Second I am going to try and make a mini or two. I need to get a sense of how they are made and see if it's even possible for me to do this in house or not. After I know how to make them, then I will have to learn how to run a business. My wife said she will do the accounting for me. So I have that part set.

I don't expect to make money from this, I can see now, especially after reading a lot of threads and links people gave me, that it's a tough business. I need to at least try for myself.

I know this will be a long project but for me, starting was asking questions. Now some questions have been answered, it's up to me now, to start.

Someone said (sorry forget the name) what type of game I want. I want a Sci Fi game. So that is what I am working on.

I think I might have some great ideas but they will come later.

Again, I want to thank everyone,you have been of great help. Now it's time for me to write my rules.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Casting metal took me about a week to figure out to the point where I was getting less than 1% miscasts. Making and cutting molds took a bit longer.

In terms of who will teach - there are lots of people who give away "trade secrets". About a year after I started casting, I spent a bit of time with Iron Wind, Brigade and Reaper when I decided I wanted to do it somewhat seriously (not selling them - but casting enough that I don't want to have to toss half of them back in the pot). Learned some stuff with them - most of it was stuff I figured out on my own though.

I still call them up from time to time on tricky molds. My mold supplier also is quick to help. They tend to be an excellent source of what works and doesn't...otherwise, I go find someone else to buy from.

Even if he were to have someone cut his molds for him, doing his own casting is definitely something he should really consider. Having the ability to control your inventory is essential. If I cast up a bunch of figures and for whatever reason don't need them anymore - they go back in the pot. If you buy a contract casting run of a few hundred figures and they are duds...you are stuck with a few hundred duds or have to negotiate whether or not your contract caster will take them back to discount your next run (and whether that is something to be bothered with with shipping and all that).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

Tyron wrote:


You keep going on about a trained monkey but someone trained it (the key point which you're missing). Who will train Davor? You? Unless someone will train him personally (unlikely because top tier don't give away trade secrets) he's on his own with some youtube videos and online guides and that will probably cost him more in resources and time when he could be making money instead.

As for the sculpting and artwork. Again he will have to pay people because he hasn't indicated he has those abilities.

If he truly believes in his heart this will work he will need a lot of luck finding people locally to help him with the above at a low fee or free until he makes a return and help him increase his strengths (whatever they may be) otherwise it will be an uphill struggle.


Trained monkeys don't throw gak on the walls or jack off in front of your niece. [Edit: this statement is both crude and disingenuous. The trained money metaphor simply means that the task is so simple to perform that a relatively unintelligent monkey can be trained to do it, ergo, a relatively highly intelligent human can learn how to perform the task with little (or no) direct instruction.

To use a less crude and more apropos analogy, manufacturing miniatures is like changing the oil in your car. Sure, you can pay someone to do it, but with a modicum of effort you can learn how to do it just as well or better on your own, and save a lot of money
]

Ninja'd by Sean again, such is my life on Dakka. Anyway, as I said, there are some people who closely guard the "secrets" of miniature production. Most folks in the industry, however, are very happy to provide what wisdom they have acquired. Casting and mold making are basic trade skills that you can literally figure out on your own if you really need to.

There's plenty of tricks and tips that will help you come up to speed a lot faster and avoid some mistakes. For example, a rubber mold has to 'come up to temp' before it casts properly. In other words, you often need to spin it a time or two before you get good casts out of it.

I think it is important to disabuse folks of the notion that manufacturing miniatures is some sort of special skill/talent that only a select few have the power to accomplish. Anybody can do it if they want to learn how.

Now, sculpting a miniature...I would never tell someone to pick up some putty and think that they can sculpt like the tip tier artists.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 14:43:46


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Professional




Norwich, UK

 Fafnir wrote:
 stormwell wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
Then there's the art...art art art art!


Yeah...

Costing me £2,000 just for the artwork for my book.


Honestly, for a full book worth of artwork, £2000 actually sounds pretty cheap.

Speaking of which, I'm sure there are plenty of pretty great artists out there looking for work. Like this guy. Seems like a pretty swell dude. I'd imagine he's pretty handsome, too.


Had cheaper quotes, though the artist I've currently got lined up has delivered thus far and done some good work. Its a bit frustrating that I'm not able to scrape the money together quicker and thus pay him to get the rest of it done (been paying him for each piece he does since its the best option I have).

Wings of the Aquilla - A 40K aviation story.

Utherwald Press Facebook Page - An Indie RPG Publisher.

Utherwald Press Blog 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

Toofast wrote:
Oh boy, I don't even know where to start. Let me make sure I have this right. You don't know anything about miniature production, accounting, marketing, or running a business in general, but you want to start a business making miniatures where you do the production, accounting and marketing? I've seen this one before, I know how it ends and it isn't pretty. I'm not trying to be negative here, just realistic. To put it in perspective, it's like someone saying they don't know how to make a grilled cheese sandwich but their wife knows a little about them, and then asking what kind of restaurant they should open where they will be the owner and head chef. Your idea may work if you throw enough money at it and bring the right people in. More likely, you will end up throwing a lot of time and money down a hole. The other guys who started a war game company that ended up being successful had knowledge and cash on hand going into it. Bottom line, don't open a restaurant if you can't cook and don't know anything about the food service industry.


This.
Added to this is that you don't seem to have any money for the project and you haven't really tried a wide variety of games to see what is missing in the rules market and what niche you can fill. There's no point in paying thousands of dollars for a ruleset if it's not going to have an audience and a niche. Right now your cart is so far in front of the horse that no one knows where it's going.

Here's my advice:
Don't do this as a business. As it stands now, you simply don't have the experience, know-how or the direction and you will fail. When you do, you won't be kicking yourself for trying, you'll be kicking yourself for dumping money and time down the toilet. Instead pick the one aspect of this that interests you the most and do it as a hobby for you and your son. Don't expect to make any $ on it and just enjoy the process. I've seen a number of interesting projects that have worked out this way and it's a great way for a hobbyist to dabble in the business without foolishly trying to make it in business.

If that favored aspect is rules, then get out there and read every set of mini rules you can, write your own complete ruleset and then playtest it. Then and ONLY then, think about art, layout, etc. Paying someone to make art for a ruleset that hasn't been playtested or even finished is just plain foolish.

If miniatures is the aspect that you enjoy, hire someone to sculpt the miniatures for you, then have them cast up and sell some online. If the figures are nice enough, you can probably make back your costs, but don't expect to make a real business out of it yet.

After you've done one (or both) of these sit back and ask yourself if you really want to do it again and again and again. If so, get some business training and go for it. Otherwise, just keep it a hobby.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Thank you Eilif for your words. That is what I am doing. I am doing this for fun. I am doing this for me and my son. I am enjoying as I am going. If I am not having fun, then I will be stopping it. This is all about having fun.

I just thought, if I stuck gold, how could I expand on it. So this is why I am asking what would be needed in starting a business around it. I have been doing my research, and I am seeing what is out there (reading their rules).

I just want to make sure that it's not the case I struck gold and then turn it into money blindly. Now I see the work, time, money, energy needed to go into it, I have my eyes open for it.

So now, this is just going to be a fun family project. If it goes off more than that, I have seen from the excellent advice given on hear what more needs to be done. I am not going to just throw out money and thinking I am going to become rich.

For now, I am making rules for me and my son. I will share it with others. If a lot of others become interested then I go on from there. So as you said Eilif, I am keeping it as a hobby.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

That sounds like an excellent idea. It may happen that the rules are successful and can be grown, but if it doesn't you haven't over-extended yourself and you have a project that you and your son can look back on without regret.

By the way, if you keep the art in black and white, there are services like Lulu that will print it for you. They will do color too, but the cost is significantly higher and so it's hard to make color resellable at a profit.

It's a very viable way to make a book and sell it and even some established games like Future War Commander have used Lulu to make a lower cost B&W edition. In their case it was also a way for them to sell it in the USA without overseas shipping since they were in the UK and didn't have distribution here and Lulu is a USA company.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Louisiana

 Eilif wrote:

Here's my advice:
Don't do this as a business. As it stands now, you simply don't have the experience, know-how or the direction and you will fail. When you do, you won't be kicking yourself for trying, you'll be kicking yourself for dumping money and time down the toilet. Instead pick the one aspect of this that interests you the most and do it as a hobby for you and your son. Don't expect to make any $ on it and just enjoy the process. I've seen a number of interesting projects that have worked out this way and it's a great way for a hobbyist to dabble in the business without foolishly trying to make it in business.

If that favored aspect is rules, then get out there and read every set of mini rules you can, write your own complete ruleset and then playtest it. Then and ONLY then, think about art, layout, etc. Paying someone to make art for a ruleset that hasn't been playtested or even finished is just plain foolish.

If miniatures is the aspect that you enjoy, hire someone to sculpt the miniatures for you, then have them cast up and sell some online. If the figures are nice enough, you can probably make back your costs, but don't expect to make a real business out of it yet.

After you've done one (or both) of these sit back and ask yourself if you really want to do it again and again and again. If so, get some business training and go for it. Otherwise, just keep it a hobby.


Respectfully, this makes no sense. You are telling the OP that if he starts a business it will fail and he shouldn't do it because it would be a stupid mistake, and then tell him to pour thousands of dollars into development and production of a set of miniatures to sell online...that sounds a whole lot like starting a business to me...

My guess is that Davor is a responsible adult, able to make responsible decisions. Considering that, when someone like him asks about how the miniatures industry works and how to do it, it is a little sucky to respond with 'you can't, it won't work, you are going to fail, this is a bad idea.' I think it is much better advice to say that starting an actual busines is complicated, and that it requires a lot of time, and that it is going to take a lot of work, and that business advice is a bit different from advice about producing miniatures. That's all fair and helpful, but also rather boilerplate.

Here's the nice thing about a sin caster: it doesn't turn into a pumpkin at midnight. Sean, for example, makes his own miniatures for the lols. In fact, it will cost you less to buy a professional spin casting machine than it will to buy, build, paint, and purchase the rules for a 2000 point 40K army. Yup, how much have you spent on miniatures this year so far?

Fact is, aside from the artwork, producing resin or metal miniatures is not expensive. This is why there are a profusion of garage/dorm room businesses in this industry.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 23:49:13


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."

AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

weeble1000 wrote:

Respectfully, this makes no sense. You are telling the OP that if he starts a business it will fail and he shouldn't do it because it would be a stupid mistake, and then tell him to pour thousands of dollars into development and production of a set of miniatures to sell online...that sounds a whole lot like starting a business to me...


Respectfully,
It makes perfect sense. It's not cheap, but I've seen a number of folks who hire a sculptor to make miniatures for their personal collection, and then sell them to cover the costs. I don't recall the name right now, but one of the best near-future lines of troopers I ever saw was a private line that the guy had commissioned for himself, but sold on his blog. Eventually he sold the line (possibly to hasslefree??). If you're not looking at it as a business, you can break even and cover your costs and have fun with it rather than having the pressure of making a profit.

There are also a huge number of "garage" operations that sell limited lines of minis, ether old sculpts purchased when the maker goes out of business, or new comissioned sculpts. The difference is that while these are set up to make a profit, it's a sideline and these people aren't doing it to "make a living". There are even enough private casters out there who will handle the master, mold and casting, that you don't even have to learn how to cast minis.

It's really a moot point though as the OP's focus now appears to be the rules, a project where even more of it can be done DIY with art, and possibly layout and editing being the only things requiring assistance.


EDIT I found the line of miniatures it was "Frank's Toybox" Ultra Moderns and it was sold to Hasslefree. The Frank's Toybox blog is gone now, but you can see some info and the minis here: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Post_Apoc_Wargames/topic/4990595/1/
and here:
http://wpggamegeeks.blogspot.com/2012/09/28mm-sci-fi-goodness-franks-toybox.html
Just an example of what a hobbyist can do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/01 00:40:27


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

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Louisiana

 Eilif wrote:
Spoiler:
weeble1000 wrote:

Respectfully, this makes no sense. You are telling the OP that if he starts a business it will fail and he shouldn't do it because it would be a stupid mistake, and then tell him to pour thousands of dollars into development and production of a set of miniatures to sell online...that sounds a whole lot like starting a business to me...


Respectfully,
It makes perfect sense. It's not cheap, but I've seen a number of folks who hire a sculptor to make miniatures for their personal collection, and then sell them to cover the costs. I don't recall the name right now, but one of the best near-future lines of troopers I ever saw was a private line that the guy had commissioned for himself, but sold on his blog. Eventually he sold the line (possibly to hasslefree??). If you're not looking at it as a business, you can break even and cover your costs and have fun with it rather than having the pressure of making a profit.

There are also a huge number of "garage" operations that sell limited lines of minis, ether old sculpts purchased when the maker goes out of business, or new comissioned sculpts. The difference is that while these are set up to make a profit, it's a sideline and these people aren't doing it to "make a living". There are even enough private casters out there who will handle the master, mold and casting, that you don't even have to learn how to cast minis.

It's really a moot point though as the OP's focus now appears to be the rules, a project where even more of it can be done DIY with art, and possibly layout and editing being the only things requiring assistance.


EDIT I found the line of miniatures it was "Frank's Toybox" Ultra Moderns and it was sold to Hasslefree. The Frank's Toybox blog is gone now, but you can see some info and the minis here: http://s1.zetaboards.com/Post_Apoc_Wargames/topic/4990595/1/
and here:
http://wpggamegeeks.blogspot.com/2012/09/28mm-sci-fi-goodness-franks-toybox.html
Just an example of what a hobbyist can do.


The vast majority of miniatures businesses operative today are 'sideline' businesses.

If you are making something for yourself, why not spend the exact same amount of money...or less...and do it yourself? If you sling some products ad hoc on ebay and recoup the costs of your production equipment, that's one less expense if you want to later start a business. And if you do eventually start a business, your costs will be lower, you will be able to control your stock levels to match demand, and you will be able to have flexibility with your customers. If you pick up the skills, you can also do contract work for some cash on the side.

Anyway, my issue was with you telling the OP to not start a business, and in the next breath suggesting that he do everything a business would do to produce a line of miniatures...and then sell them...

What you neglect to mention is that when you produce miniatures via contract production services, there's usually a minimum order quantity, which as Sean mentioned means that you have money tied up in stock that you might not be able to sell. If you are only making miniatures for yourself, why tie that money up into stock that you might be able to sell to recoup the costs when you could just as easily spend that same money on production equipment that does not depreciate or lose functionality and which also allows you to put those miniatures up for sale?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 02:03:00


Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"

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Melbourne .au

weeble1000 wrote:
In fact, it will cost you less to buy a professional spin casting machine than it will to buy, build, paint, and purchase the rules for a 2000 point 40K army. Yup, how much have you spent on miniatures this year so far?


Links with specific prices please? This looks interesting. What about vulcanising machines for mould-making?

   
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Sacramento, CA

 Azazelx wrote:
weeble1000 wrote:
In fact, it will cost you less to buy a professional spin casting machine than it will to buy, build, paint, and purchase the rules for a 2000 point 40K army. Yup, how much have you spent on miniatures this year so far?


Links with specific prices please? This looks interesting. What about vulcanising machines for mould-making?


I'd like this too.


A setup for Pressure Casting resin can be gotten for less than a 40k army for sure, but I haven't seen a metal casing setup run that low.

-Emily Whitehouse| On The Lamb Games
 
   
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On eBay - they pop up for $1000 or so with some regularity. You can get factory reconditioned used models from most companies for $1500-2000. New start at about $2000 for the full featured models (there are some that actually start down around $1000 new though). You can spend well over $30K for a high dollar automatic model where multiple molds rotate through the machine on a turntable though... I also went ahead and built a second machine for about $75 plus some spare parts I had sitting around (and a good bit of time) - thinking about doing a third so I can play around with some ideas for heated platens for resin.

Vulcanizing is a bit of a different issue. Depending on how you want to handle it - you can actually vulcanize your molds in the kitchen oven (true story - that is where most mine get done). Other options include RTV molds, which don't require a vulcanizer (bit like making molds for pressure casting resin...but different). And of course, you can have the molds made for you (lots of companies do that and then cast in house). Vulcanizers also do pop up - about the same price point as spin casters for used models. Bit cheaper for new.

In terms of the price of a 40K army...depending on the army and how you value your time - not to hard. I know that when I bought my set up, I paid less for it than I did for my GK army at the time (that was 10 years ago or so). If you figure in the rules, painting and all that - definitely would not be hard.

I will say that it isn't necessarily less expensive in the long run. Over the years I have learned to sculpt fairly well. Still, I have a fair number of figures sculpted for me too. Those add up pretty quick (depending on who, what and how many...anywhere from a couple hundred to $1000+ per figure).

Still, it does have the added benefit of allowing me to make as many of whichever figure I want...when I want them. I don't have to go through and carefully plan out my armies and go back and forth on the pros and cons of a specific purchase. If I want to add another unit of one type or another - I cast them up. If I decide that I really don't like that unit - back in the pot they go (replaying scenes from Terminator over and over again...).

For those who are interested in doing it on the cheaper...err...budget - take a look at Zombiesmith's series of videos on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtVW8i-J6Nz9545Fe6zF8SA

Caution, molten metal is hot and will burn your skin, hands, eyes... Most of his methods are not OSHA approved, but fairly safe and effective provided that common sense is followed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the big thing, and it might just be a bit of a city folk/country folk issue going on, is that casting is really, really easy.

No, really, it is.

Serious - easy.

Like I said, I had metal casting down in less than a week (in reality it would likely have been a couple days...but I was working full time - so my time with my new toy was scattered between several days as well as blowing a circuit and having to run a new line for the smelting pot).

Mold making is more complicated, but even my first mold worked (didn't work great - but the cavities that did fill - were fine). By the time I had gotten to cutting my sixth and seventh molds, everything was pretty straight forward. Total investment in that learning process was about $100.

Resin casting took much longer to get sorted - and to be honest, between pressure pots, vacuum chambers, silicone and resin...I probably spent about as much figuring out the particulars of resin casting and mold making as I did on my first spin caster and learning metal casting.

The big downside is that it isn't something that you will want in your kitchen (vulcanizing aside...and even then, do that while your wife is out of the house - cooking rubber molds has a distinct odor). I can't just pack up my spin caster and stick it in my desk drawer like I can with my resin supplies (though even there...my big chambers are much too big).

Space is a definite concern. Granted, it isn't quite what Ken is dealing with at Proxie - but it would take up a good chunk of a two car garage between the machines and mold storage (I am actually designing a new workshop with roughly a two car garage of space just for my casting...which will cost a bit more than the 40K army).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 05:55:52


 
   
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Melbourne .au

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

I think the big thing, and it might just be a bit of a city folk/country folk issue going on,


What does that mean, exactly? Since the conversation has people from at least 5 nations involved. I don't get the reference.



Space is a definite concern. Granted, it isn't quite what Ken is dealing with at Proxie - but it would take up a good chunk of a two car garage between the machines and mold storage (I am actually designing a new workshop with roughly a two car garage of space just for my casting...which will cost a bit more than the 40K army).


So not necessarily quite the same negligible set of concerns that weeble is pushing? Lots of things are easy to perform. It doesn't mean that they're easy to do, set up or are practical.

   
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Still on the miniatures front...

Your flag says Canada (which generally means Canada - but sometimes not). There is an added benefit of doing the casting in house and keeping track of those sorts of things. I get a lot of tax credits and other bits that I can take advantage of (granted, I also have a bit more paperwork - but not much since I am already self employed).

Depending on your situation, your wife's situation, your governments situation... you might actually get a real benefit above and beyond just the potential income for selling miniatures (R&D Tax Credits, Equipment costs, bit of an offset for the workshop...). You will need to figure out the particulars for where you are - but it might help justify some of the expenditures (in some cases, you could even get grants for small business manufacturing to pay for the equipment...).
   
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Tied and gagged in the back of your car

weeble1000 wrote:
In fact, it will cost you less to buy a professional spin casting machine than it will to buy, build, paint, and purchase the rules for a 2000 point 40K army. Yup, how much have you spent on miniatures this year so far?



Good god, 40k's expensive these days.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Azazelx wrote:
 Sean_OBrien wrote:

I think the big thing, and it might just be a bit of a city folk/country folk issue going on,


What does that mean, exactly? Since the conversation has people from at least 5 nations involved. I don't get the reference.


Just looking at things differently. Casting under contract isn't exactly cheap to start with (each run will cost you a few hundred per mold). If you have a half dozen molds - you can buy a machine.

Granted, if you stick with contracts - you avoid a lot of that initial outlay and overhead and can shoestring it...



Space is a definite concern. Granted, it isn't quite what Ken is dealing with at Proxie - but it would take up a good chunk of a two car garage between the machines and mold storage (I am actually designing a new workshop with roughly a two car garage of space just for my casting...which will cost a bit more than the 40K army).


So not necessarily quite the same negligible set of concerns that weeble is pushing? Lots of things are easy to perform. It doesn't mean that they're easy to do, set up or are practical.


To start with, you could probably fit everything in a 4x8 footprint. I have 10 years worth of spin cast molds, 10 years worth of masters and several dozen resin molds. That takes up a bit of space. For casting as a business - you will need room for manufacturing, room for stock and room for general storage.

You could stick it in a basement as well as you could in a garage - but you will need a bit of room for it that is over and above a hobby desk in a spare bedroom. For a lot of people, that isn't a significant issue. If you live in a studio apartment in an urban area - well, it would likely be a problem.

It really is sort of negligible in the grand scheme of things - but there are concerns that you should know about. I wouldn't rate it as any more difficult than say having a tablesaw in the garage to do some wood working on the weekend though. Takes up some space, but you can still get the car in there when you aren't ripping sheets of plywood.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 06:29:26


 
   
Made in us
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Chicago

This thread just got really interesting. Loving all the information here about casting, prices, etc.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




I have lernt so much with this thread. I just want to say thank you to everyone who participated. I really mean it, thank you very much for helping me.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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 Formosa wrote:
As others said, play test, alot of my initial ideas had to be changed or dropped entirely due to being too complex or just not fitting with the ruleset, if you find yourself making alot of rules to contradict the main rules then your probably going to have a problem



I will second all of this. Playtest until you're sick to death of your own creation and can't stand to play it a minute longer.

Then double the time again that you've already spent testing.


I used to work (for several years) for a very prominent game company doing rules / model development and resolution and playtest. I can't tell you how important it is to have a wide and varied group of testers. People in Baton Rogue would think a model was fine and dandy, whereas people in New England would think it was the antichrist incarnate, and will destroy the game, while the people in Vancouver were asking for clarification on the design intent of the piece.

Take any different model, and switch those (or other) places around, and that happened with every. fething. piece.


Playtest with a lot of people. Make sure they sign reasonable but binding NDA's (crazy strict NDA's will likely be thrown out if you ever actually have a legal challenge to them), and get people in a wide variety of places to playtest. The gamers in NY are different from New England, and from Texas, and from california. I'm sure the same can be said of Canada too.


 daedalus wrote:

I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.


 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






Davor wrote:
First of all, I know this is almost failure. Second I need to try at least. Third, I hope I am in the right forum for this.

Sorry for the very long post but please bear with me. I am in a lull in my life. I want to change it. I have an idea but don't know how to start implement it. So as I tell my kids, if you don't know how to do something, ask. So I am asking here on Dakkadakka for help and ideas.

I use to play 40K, Lord of the Rings and buy GW stuff. I stopped because of the price increases and bad support for their games. I am basically priced out of the GW hobby. I found out about other games and got back into gaming a bit, but more collecting than playing. Me and my son wanted to start playing 40K again but found the rules do not fit us. So I am remaking 40K so it will be more fun for me and my son. It is taking a lot of work time and energy to do.

Right now, I am in a lull in my life. I want to change. Recently I have seen a new game called Dropzone Commander. I was shocked to read that it was all done mostly by one person. He made the game rules, the artwork and mini designs. (I could be wrong but it seems a lot of this was done by one person, please correct me if I am wrong.) So I am thinking to myself if something this great can be done by one person, why can't I do it? I see my son has some interest in trying to be an entrepreneur with mins, I am thinking since I am spending so much time making new rules for 40K, why not spend that time and energy making a new rule system for me and try and make a new company like Hawk Wargames?

So right now, this will all be for personal stuff. Just for me and my boy. But on the off chance this takes off and people are actually interested I am willing to try and make a company off the ground on this. Problem is, I don't know how or what to expect. If I want to make minis, how do I make them? I want to start of small. Make a few minis here, a few mins there. Question is, how do I make minis? How do I make molds? Do I use plastic or something else? Why do people use resin?

So how do I make miniatures? What do I need? What tools and products should I be looking at?

Also I just found out, a few of my rules seem to be implemented in other game systems that I don't even know about? What would happen if I made books and started to sell them with the rules that are in other games? What can happen? People can say I copied them, but I didn't even know they existed. I guess what I am asking is, how do you claim a rule set is yours and no ones else's rule set? When do you draw the line from "similarities" to "copying"?

For example I was going to have "reactionary fire". If an unit A passes Unit B, and if Unit B didn't move yet, they can shoot Unit A. I was told this is in other games. I didn't know about this other game and never seen this play style done before. So can I get in trouble for using it?

I wanted to use tokens. Now I see X-wing uses tokens. Can I get in trouble for this? I wanted to use armour tokens, but now I see the other day, that WizKids has D&D Attack Wing. It has armour tokens. I thought that was my idea. Now I see it implemented in another game. What can I do? I would really like to try and use my system but now I see it is similar to X-wing and D&D Attack Wing. I am not using move counters or move dials, but still wanted my counters being used. Can this still be my idea?

I have a lot more questions, but this is where I am stumped at. I am looking for all the help I can get. I would appreciate all and any help I can get.

Thank you for taking your time to read.





Want my advice?


Just go for it. If you have a game, play it with a few different groups, come up with something that makes your game YOURS, and !@#$ the rest of them. Want to be successful?

Work your ass off for the vision, make it yours, and push forward, because business is work, its not just about !@#ing off and throwing something on the table. Its bloody, and everyone else is going to try to take your lunch, steal; your ideas and say that you didn't come up with it.

What makes your game unique?
Why do I want to drop everything and play it?
Why do I want to buy what your selling?

Elevator pitch me. I have a couple of hundred thousand to burn, convince me that I want to throw down with you. ( not me, Pitch it to yourself.)


Kickstarter is full of success, failure, and everything in between. WORK HARD= REWARD. !@#iING OFF= FAILURE.

Be honest with yourself, work that game to be fun, and not just about taking my wallet, and it will sell and you can be successful.


D and D. CarWars, SpaceHulk, WFB, 40K, etc..... Everyone started with a vision, pushed it, made it their own, and pushed again.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
 
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