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So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Try again buddy.

OT, I think 40K is dying because GW is. The financial reports show as much.

I don't know how it is around the world, but at least here a lot of people left either to play other systems or because places where they played got closed. There is also a lot of people who have armies, but no longer play anymore. There is a limited number of games you want to play against eldar in non tournament settings.

I find my real life experience of 40k is radically different to what I read online. There are a couple of people who are donkey-caves, and a couple of people with bad social/hygiene skills, but by and large the people are cool. There are dozens in our group, and there's always someone available and willing to play games of any sizes. The shop is cool. People don't make abusive lists, because they realise it's a game and people want to have fun. I don't understand why you guys have such a bad experience?

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I don't understand why you guys have such a bad experience?

Cause we are

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
donkey-caves with bad social/hygiene skills

I'd say a complete reboot, not just a bugfix like that last few editions have been would be good, but 40k is alive and well.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I don't understand why you guys have such a bad experience?

Well, the first thing to understand is that people will have as many varying experiences as there are people in the hobby. Some of the experiences are a result of the opponent bringing something negative, and other times it could be the fault of the person complaining about the game, or a combination thereof.

The second thing is that even though people can have a fun game of 40k with friends, some people are enjoying it despite the rules, rather than because of them. As far as games I've played, 40k is the clunkiest, most complex, least tactical and strategic, worst balanced, and most expensive, which means the games I'm playing are because I enjoy the fluff, models, aesthetics, and spending time with my friends. However, I could spend that same time with someone playing a different game that is better in nearly aspect a wargame could be measured by, barring subjective things like fluff and aesthetics. It then raises the question of why I'm even playing 40k when other games are offering a better gaming experience.

While it isn't universal, and I don't speak for anyone but myself, I think its safe to say not everyone is necessarily having a bad experience, but it'd be a stretch to say 40k is a game that naturally creates a positive gaming environment. Between the balance, cost, and rules complexity, you'll find a bigger spectrum of how people wish to play the game. A game like Firestorm Armada for example, has much simpler, cleaner rules with little to no room for interpretation, and the balance is better, meaning less of my game time is spent going over rules, or being frustrated about balance issues or broken combinations.

To tie it back into the OP, 40k certainly isn't on its best leg. The last financials weren't great, to put it lightly, and the next one will tell us if the trend is continuing. The market has only grown, and other companies are eating up the expanding market share, leaving 40k to stagnate. There's not a lot to entice new players into 40k, when other games are a fraction of the cost and easier to learn. Growing communities outside of 40k mean more people are getting introduced to wargaming through other systems, which used to be GW's big selling point. Once the ubiquity of 40k teeters off, there isn't a whole lot to keep it going.

I don't think its dying yet, but I don't think its far off from that either.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Try again buddy.

OT, I think 40K is dying because GW is. The financial reports show as much.

Did you just stop reading my post after the first half of a sentence?

All of those things are easy to mitigate based on a short conversation.

I remember when Halo was released and I played it for the first time, my buddy set it to legendary mode and I hated it so I asked to play down a little bit and loved the game on normal. Ask your opponents to chill out a bit or find different people to play. If that doesn't work, stop playing. Nobody cares.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Maybe not a subhuman CHUD, but it does make you close minded and conservative.

 bubz wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Try again buddy.

OT, I think 40K is dying because GW is. The financial reports show as much.

Did you just stop reading my post after the first half of a sentence?

All of those things are easy to mitigate based on a short conversation.

I remember when Halo was released and I played it for the first time, my buddy set it to legendary mode and I hated it so I asked to play down a little bit and loved the game on normal. Ask your opponents to chill out a bit or find different people to play. If that doesn't work, stop playing. Nobody cares.

A, the wonderful sound of a fresh-faced player who is utterly convinced that the only reason people would stop playing 40k is because they are sub-human. They ignore the fact that people may take issues with completely different elements of the game (my Guard player friend was thrilled by 6th ed. My Tyranids were not.), making negotiations frustrating. Other games must simply appeal to anti-social basement dwellers, and not simpoly remove the agravation of having to horse-trade every time you face a new opponent.

I look forewards to Dakka Slowly crushing your soul. (Mwahahahahahaha )

What i'd love to see is the gamers taking control of the game, at least somewhat.

Old GW (and by old i mean OLD) was run by gamers, and for gamers.

Current GW is run for the stockholders, and feth the gamers.

I would love to see an actual gamer or group of gamers become a major stockholder in GW. Could be a positive influence...

In my area WHFB is stone cold, and 40K is on life support. We used to have 16+ person tournaments (smallish store), but now we're lucky if 4 show up.

@OP: 40k is a good vehicle for campaigns with a GM outlining battle-specific restrictions on army lists. If you are able to think of and play 40k in this way, it might be funner for you. You could consider finding a third member of your inner circle, and swap who GMs what campaigns. These kind of things also attract players at hobby shops, because alot of people are in the same boat as you are, but do want to play with their 40k stuff.

I have to say, I personally took a break from 40k in 6th Ed because I hated it so much, but I am returning to it because 7th seems to have fixed some things, as well as my undying need for 40k fluff discussions, lol. It seems to be a rather solid force at my flgs. Ya, some people would quit or switch to other games, but there always still seemed to be a healthy player base. Sadly, I can't say the same for fantasy.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 bubz wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Try again buddy.

OT, I think 40K is dying because GW is. The financial reports show as much.

Did you just stop reading my post after the first half of a sentence?

All of those things are easy to mitigate based on a short conversation.

I remember when Halo was released and I played it for the first time, my buddy set it to legendary mode and I hated it so I asked to play down a little bit and loved the game on normal. Ask your opponents to chill out a bit or find different people to play. If that doesn't work, stop playing. Nobody cares.

A, the wonderful sound of a fresh-faced player who is utterly convinced that the only reason people would stop playing 40k is because they are sub-human. They ignore the fact that people may take issues with completely different elements of the game (my Guard player friend was thrilled by 6th ed. My Tyranids were not.), making negotiations frustrating. Other games must simply appeal to anti-social basement dwellers, and not simpoly remove the agravation of having to horse-trade every time you face a new opponent.

I look forewards to Dakka Slowly crushing your soul. (Mwahahahahahaha )

So weird that Dakka users assume that one's participation on this forum is the be all and end all of their wargaming experience.

Anytime I've said something contrary to the "I hate 40k but still play it let's complain" circlejerk I've been ignored and rebuffed as a new player when actually, I've been modelling/playing for a decade now.

At any rate, the length of time I've been posting on this form is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If you could address what I actually wrote in my post that would be great.

Loborocket wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Maybe not a subhuman CHUD, but it does make you close minded and conservative.

Not true either. Many of us are quite open minded seeing as we play and experiment with other games. Just because we don't find 7th ed rules fun, doesn't mean we're closed minded and conservative. Different people have different ideas of fun. For us, we find good rules and balanced armies to be fun.

 jasper76 wrote:
@OP: 40k is a good vehicle for campaigns with a GM outlining battle-specific restrictions on army lists. If you are able to think of and play 40k in this way, it might be funner for you. You could consider finding a third member of your inner circle, and swap who GMs what campaigns. These kind of things also attract players at hobby shops, because alot of people are in the same boat as you are, but do want to play with their 40k stuff.

Campaigns are far and away my favourite way to play this game. Modified rulesets that give you bonuses based on previous wins/losses can help mitigate or facilitate someone wanting to bring a more powerful.

 bubz wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 bubz wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Try again buddy.

OT, I think 40K is dying because GW is. The financial reports show as much.

Did you just stop reading my post after the first half of a sentence?

All of those things are easy to mitigate based on a short conversation.

I remember when Halo was released and I played it for the first time, my buddy set it to legendary mode and I hated it so I asked to play down a little bit and loved the game on normal. Ask your opponents to chill out a bit or find different people to play. If that doesn't work, stop playing. Nobody cares.

A, the wonderful sound of a fresh-faced player who is utterly convinced that the only reason people would stop playing 40k is because they are sub-human. They ignore the fact that people may take issues with completely different elements of the game (my Guard player friend was thrilled by 6th ed. My Tyranids were not.), making negotiations frustrating. Other games must simply appeal to anti-social basement dwellers, and not simpoly remove the agravation of having to horse-trade every time you face a new opponent.

I look forewards to Dakka Slowly crushing your soul. (Mwahahahahahaha )

So weird that Dakka users assume that one's participation on this forum is the be all and end all of their wargaming experience.

Anytime I've said something contrary to the "I hate 40k but still play it let's complain" circlejerk I've been ignored and rebuffed as a new player when actually, I've been modelling/playing for a decade now.

At any rate, the length of time I've been posting on this form is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If you could address what I actually wrote in my post that would be great.

Why bother responding when you obviously think the other side is ______. That's not exactly conducive to a rational conversation. Maybe he assumed you were a new player because you acted like a child?
Basically, don't insult people and you might get more helpful responses.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
don't waste people's time on another 40k doom and gloom thread.

What a strange statement to make.

Is your willpower so incredibly weak that you feel compelled to enter and read every single thread that pops up on the forum, thus resulting in a waste of your time when threads that you don't like pop up?

Using the advice that you gave to the OP about the game, shouldn't people who dislike threads like this simply... not go into them?

Title is misleading. Its phrased as a question, but OP seems to already have made up his mind. Had it been "40k is dead and stupid and I hate it", I probably wouldn't have clicked on it

 jreilly89 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
don't waste people's time on another 40k doom and gloom thread.

What a strange statement to make.

Is your willpower so incredibly weak that you feel compelled to enter and read every single thread that pops up on the forum, thus resulting in a waste of your time when threads that you don't like pop up?

Using the advice that you gave to the OP about the game, shouldn't people who dislike threads like this simply... not go into them?

Title is misleading. Its phrased as a question, but OP seems to already have made up his mind. Had it been "40k is dead and stupid and I hate it", I probably wouldn't have clicked on it

I think its a valid discussion. The OP shared his opinion and new we get to share ours. Nothing misleading in that. (I wish it came with a poll though. I think it would still be that the majority here on Dakka would think that 40k isn't dying.)

Loborocket wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Maybe not a subhuman CHUD, but it does make you close minded and conservative.

Because personal attacks = valid criticism.

I don't like 7th. Deal with it. Sorry not sorry.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 bubz wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 bubz wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Try again buddy.

OT, I think 40K is dying because GW is. The financial reports show as much.

Did you just stop reading my post after the first half of a sentence?

All of those things are easy to mitigate based on a short conversation.

I remember when Halo was released and I played it for the first time, my buddy set it to legendary mode and I hated it so I asked to play down a little bit and loved the game on normal. Ask your opponents to chill out a bit or find different people to play. If that doesn't work, stop playing. Nobody cares.

A, the wonderful sound of a fresh-faced player who is utterly convinced that the only reason people would stop playing 40k is because they are sub-human. They ignore the fact that people may take issues with completely different elements of the game (my Guard player friend was thrilled by 6th ed. My Tyranids were not.), making negotiations frustrating. Other games must simply appeal to anti-social basement dwellers, and not simpoly remove the agravation of having to horse-trade every time you face a new opponent.

I look forewards to Dakka Slowly crushing your soul. (Mwahahahahahaha )

So weird that Dakka users assume that one's participation on this forum is the be all and end all of their wargaming experience.

Anytime I've said something contrary to the "I hate 40k but still play it let's complain" circlejerk I've been ignored and rebuffed as a new player when actually, I've been modelling/playing for a decade now.

At any rate, the length of time I've been posting on this form is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If you could address what I actually wrote in my post that would be great.

Why bother responding when you obviously think the other side is ______. That's not exactly conducive to a rational conversation. Maybe he assumed you were a new player because you acted like a child?
Basically, don't insult people and you might get more helpful responses.

Alright, I agree the insult was crass and uncalled for.

I still fail to see what part of current 40k that someone dislikes can't be resolved by basic communication with your opponent either before you play or after your game to arrange for a more enjoyable rematch. I'd just like to know if there's something I'm not seeing in regards to that.

I have the privilege of playing with a pretty close and understanding gaming group most of my time but whenever I've played a pick up game with someone there has always been a "what kind of game are you looking for" prelude to actually playing. Is this not feasible for everyone?

 MWHistorian wrote:

Loborocket wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Maybe not a subhuman CHUD, but it does make you close minded and conservative.

Not true either. Many of us are quite open minded seeing as we play and experiment with other games. Just because we don't find 7th ed rules fun, doesn't mean we're closed minded and conservative. Different people have different ideas of fun. For us, we find good rules and balanced armies to be fun.

Fair enough, then you are a person who dislikes change, or at the very least dis-likes the specific changes 7th edition brought. Not sure what can be done for you? Complaining to the internet will NOT increase your love of the game or GW and will actually do more to reinforce your negative position. You reap what you sew.

Loborocket wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Loborocket wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So simply not liking 7th's ruleset because of various reasons (unbound removing any notion of balance, a psychic phase which one of my armies has no chance to participate in, dubling down on 6ths flaws, etc) makes me a "subhuman chud"?

Maybe not a subhuman CHUD, but it does make you close minded and conservative.

Not true either. Many of us are quite open minded seeing as we play and experiment with other games. Just because we don't find 7th ed rules fun, doesn't mean we're closed minded and conservative. Different people have different ideas of fun. For us, we find good rules and balanced armies to be fun.

Fair enough, then you are a person who dislikes change, or at the very least dis-likes the specific changes 7th edition brought. Not sure what can be done for you? Complaining to the internet will NOT increase your love of the game or GW and will actually do more to reinforce your negative position. You reap what you sew.

Simple, I don't play 40k anymore because I thought the changes made the game an un-enjoyable mess for me. If the rules had been what I thought were improvements, I would have gladly continued on.
Edit. As for the Pick Up Game problem. Yes, conversation is necessary, but sometimes it needs too much of it and sometimes there are no fixes. "Oh, you brought Eldar WS spam? I got nothing to go against that. I have my fluffy 1kSons army." So, either you play a horribly one sided game or you find another opponent. Sometimes there isn't another opponent.

5th saw 40-60 people tourneys. Late 6th up to now they are lucky if they can get 12. Thats how bad its become.

I dont want to play with the compartmentalization that the game has brought. Before you needed things to kill vehicles, MCs, and infantry. Now you need to deal with LOW, Fliers, and fmcs in addition. Also you have shooting MCs with 2+ saves, so things like plasma aren't effective. Then things like titan spam that just invalidate anything but the most anti-vehicle lists. The number of checkboxes that you have to tick to make a list is just growing longer and longer and leading to more min-maxing to the point units that ARE good just become invalid due to not checking that box.

Throw that in with the dumbing-down of codexes and making them far less interesting than they were before makes me not want to play those armies. My nid army remained boxed after the 2nd half of 6th and has never come out since. I dont want to play skyblight or nothing, i want to play my own list choice.

 bubz wrote:

I still fail to see what part of current 40k that someone dislikes can't be resolved by basic communication with your opponent either before you play or after your game to arrange for a more enjoyable rematch. I'd just like to know if there's something I'm not seeing in regards to that.

I have the privilege of playing with a pretty close and understanding gaming group most of my time but whenever I've played a pick up game with someone there has always been a "what kind of game are you looking for" prelude to actually playing. Is this not feasible for everyone?

I explained in my post earlier, that some people will be having fun despite the game. As in, the game of 40k, with its rules, balance issues and other factors, does not itself create a positive gaming environment through its own merits, but mostly on those of the people playing.

Other games create a positive environment by being easier to learn, having better balance, and are more enticing to new players, which encourages a healthy, growing community and other players can branch out cheaper, which can encourage more variety as well. On top of that, you can then factor in the people who could make the experience all the better.

While the pre-game negotiation can solve a lot of problems, it really shouldn't be necessary, especially with all the variable you'd have to go over for a standard 7th ed game to be on the same page, and it also doesn't factor in that this negotiation could end in both players deciding not to play eachother.

Point is, no one should have to walk on egg shells or worry about what kind of list they're bringing in a game. Ideally, and especially given the price of the rules, I should be able to walk in to a store, find an open table and someone looking for a game and agree on a points level before playing.

I admit that I am not the biggest fan of GW, but I do try to be impartial in my opinion on their state of business and such.

Some stores I've visited in the past few years have remained at their previous levels of 40k, but then the amount the game was played there was never very high. Stores that I've visited that had a lot of 40k going on have seen substantial downturns...the main place I still see 40k being played in respectable numbers is the GW B&M stores.

I think this has less to do with the rules and more to do with the sheer cost of getting into the game. Rules alone set you back at least $130, and for that you're not getting a single miniature. The size of armies at specific point values (i.e. 1000pts, 1500pts) has also increased significantly through the last few editions as unit points have been compressed. What you get is a game that has tremendous start-up costs, and it is very discouraging for new players to join.

And this is something I find quite sad- 40k is being pushed further into obscurity when it was something that was previously becoming more commonplace (e.g. a couple of celebrities admitted to dabbling in 40k, I once met a Carolina Panthers player at a game store). I fear that, with the way things are going, 40k will become a wargame for the grandfathered-in or the wealthy, which paints an image of a bunch of superior-minded players looking down on the unwashed masses playing other wargames. That is a sad future if you ask me.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Acephale wrote:
This type of question will never have a definite answer - what does "dying" even mean in this context?

Drastically falling sales is probably a good indicator.
Either less people are interested in the game or the people who are still interested are less so.
When the market around you is growing and you're shrinking, you're dying.

Not necessarily, no.

Dying = ceasing to exist.
Shrinking = growing smaller.

So yeah, 40k is probably shrinking, as is GW's hegemony on the wargaming scene in general. I for one think this is great since it means that other systems are getting more popular, and having the option to chose between several good game systems/model ranges benefits me as a hobbyist.

Still, this doesn't mean 40k will cease to exist (well, eventually it will, just like everything else - in that sense it's surely dying, but then again aren't we all?). It will still be played by several people for a long time - probably never enjoying the popularity of its glory days but still played and appreciated for what it is.

The hobbit is "dead", even though it has a solid rule set and fare stats.
40k is not exactly "dead" when you compare both. It still has an okay fan base is some areas. While the hobbit dosent.
The rules, I will agree are dead!

 jreilly89 wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
I've only just started gaming again properly and I've got to say that in my local area it seems to be booming.

Thursday nights have at least 10 gamers
Fridays have stuff going on but I don't really go
Saturday day large scale Apoc games or you can hire a table

And you're always able to get a pick up game if you want.

Hire a table? Please explain.

Sorry reserve a table is probably the better phrase to use

I was getting more 40k’er at paint night than on game days.

Then we just started to run little events. Small FOC limited tournaments, Big games, zone mortalis and narrative campaigns. Players started to return.

40k PUG’s as we played back in 4th and 5th ed. Is dead but organized play still survives.

I'm not a fan of games workshop (to put it mildly), their price hikes, ways they try to get extra money out of you (by not including all options), the way they have completely invlidated some peoples armies by getting rid of characters and units that they can't be bothered to make units for etc...
Having said that, I think 7th has brought so many advantages.
-Maelstrom is far more tactical and prevents gunlines to an extent.
-It evened out the power of MCs compared to walkers, with smash nerf, area terrain gone, fmcs spending a turn between flight modes etc.
-It bought a more tactical choice with the new jink rules.
-Psychic phase means ld10 psykers aren't almost always auto passing everything and gives you a chance to cancel buffs.
-They have tried to stop the codex creep and have tried to strengthen weak dexes with supplements; cypher, hellbrutes, IA:13 for csm, formations for nids and orks.
-Forgeworld are creating units to help challenge the imbalanced units (obvious example being the sicaran to combat serps - although this was in 6th).
-All the recent dex releases seem very balanced against each other.