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Sorry to repeat, but has there been anything from Mantic on why we're getting a second print edition of KoW before we have one print edition of Warpath?

I thought there was to be a Warpath KS soon….

Warpath was delayed to next year, as was Deadzone 2, to give people's wallets a break.

Then we get a surprise KoW KS next week...

Warpath isn't ready. KoW is and needs a new book.

I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.

Multibasing? Still?

I think deep down Mantic really wants to remake Epic, not 40k.

They say it right in the message, they are working on more factions for Warpath, and they are epending there time working on KoW 2.0.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Multibasing? Still?

Yeah, they should just scrap that idea entirely, in my opinion.

As for KoW, I'm pretty happy with the current rules, but then I've only played pretty basic "force on force" games with it. My eyes will definitely be peeled for this.

I'm curious as to what the rules committee entails. Is it a fancy open beta, the term for all the designers or a select few who make the decisions. If it's the latter I'm less enthused.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Multibasing? Still?

I think deep down Mantic really wants to remake Epic, not 40k.

Which would be fine, if it was done in 10/15mm and no larger. I really hope multibasing in Warpath doesn't happen, as a) 40k is currently the only sci-fi large battle game with a per-model level of detail, which I'd like to see change, and b) it will alienate 40k players, which are ultimately Warpath's target audience. If they can combine the best bits of 40k (the scale, scope and detail of it) with more modern/interactive rules (activations, command rules, reactions) and supplement it all with hordes of cheap cheap cheap hard plastic minis, they could be on to a winner there.

As to why it was pushed back, Mantic (and everyone else) expects Warpath to be absolutely collossal as a KS. Deadzone was 1.2 million, I can see Warpath being 3-4m if they get the plastic sorted (by all accounts they have now) and keep up their usual 'free/cheap stuff for everyone, but even freer/cheaper for big pledges' strategy to get the cash in.

 Daedleh wrote:
I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.

Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.

KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.

 Alex C wrote:
Do you think Mantic will really limit themselves to selling "just the book" and keep it a "small KS"?

No way!

I know Kickstarters have the potential to become a burden, and I am aware of this.

So did I consider just pre-releasing the 2nd Edition of KoW? Yes, I thought long and hard about it. But I think our fans have come to expect the amazing. Piles of plastics at great prices and any extra cash we generate being spent on new models to support their game, and more cool expansion books and background. If I put it up for pre-release we both lose the urgency that makes us get on and get things made and a deadline that sees it released soon.

Some odd stuff in there.

Not surprising, I suppose, but still...

Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?

Mymearan wrote:
Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?

I'm the only person I know with any Mantic products.... Miniature Market regularly sells off their stock of Mantic at insanely cheap prices; one would assume (dangerous I know) that this is because it's not moving particularly well and is eating up warehouse space.

Mymearan wrote:
Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?

I'm fairly certain Dreadball has been selling well (they're now on the 5th ot 6th print run, I think), Deadzone has done pretty well and already my local store (not even a real game store, more a model/toy store that does some gaming stuff) already has the Mars Attacks! stuff on the shelf. In terms of breaking into retail, I think MA is Mantic's ace in the whole; while I personally don't care for the style or product, it seems to be the one of their ranges most likely to sell outside of specific game stores.

Mymearan wrote:
Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?

I'm the only person in my gaming group with mantic stuff. That being said, it seems deadzone has done pretty well at catching on.

Kings of War is the best mass battles games on the market. I've got like a hundred games under my belt from a half dozen different armies (and I have three more armies waiting to be painted)

I am very much looking forward to a few unit tweaks and revised siege/building/etc rules (aka the Jake Thornton "Why Was I Asked To Write These Expansion Rules When Alessio Wrote The Main Rules" gaffes)

I hope the Rules Committee that has been working on this hasn't lost sight of "simple = superior".

Deadzone and Dreadball took pretty well locally. Not insanely popular or anything but there are groups that get together regularly for both. Neither holds a candle to X-wing which is the go to secondary game around here (most people's primary being GW 40k or Fantasy).

 judgedoug wrote:
I hope the Rules Committee that has been working on this hasn't lost sight of "simple = superior".

Word on that. Much of the appeal of Kings of War for me is its simplicity. I seriously doubt they'd drift off that path though.

We've been talking about KoW, I might hop on this. Especially if there is a Veermyn list

 Baragash wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.

Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.

KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.

I very much beg to differ, but only in regards to the multi-basing.

Multi-basing is a huge issue - and if the game tries to force it then it will not be played. Even as an option it seems unwieldy and limiting.

It is just plain a bad idea for that scale of game. For an Epic/Micro Armor scale it would work fine, but for squad level tactics... not so much.

Deadzone shows that Mantic can write a good, solid SF game without having cumbersome bases of troops.

That said, I am much happier with a KS for KoW than I would be for Warpath.

The balance issues haven't been that bad for me in the current edition Kings of War, other than avoiding the campaign and siege rules.

Certainly better than some other games on the market.

The Auld Grump

Zond wrote:I'm curious as to what the rules committee entails. Is it a fancy open beta, the term for all the designers or a select few who make the decisions. If it's the latter I'm less enthused.

Not sure what you mean here.

The way it's been working with the KoW committee is that we work closely with Alessio C who has the final say over everything. He has his ideas of where he wants to take the game, we have our ideas and we act as a filter between him and the rest of the community - it would take an extraordinary amount of time for him to sift through it on his own. Alessio takes our feedback on board, writes a version of the rules which we then test and give further feedback on. Through iteration we're able to come up with something that he's happy with, that we're happy with and know that the community will be happy with. We've got the core & special rules 95% of the way there now and about to start churning through the army lists and repointing everything.

Mymearan wrote:Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?

They sell well after the Kickstarters. The Deadzone KS backers got half of the first print run of Deadzone and the rest sold out through retail within a month of release. It's gone through several print runs still.

judgedoug wrote:Kings of War is the best mass battles games on the market. I've got like a hundred games under my belt from a half dozen different armies (and I have three more armies waiting to be painted)

I am very much looking forward to a few unit tweaks and revised siege/building/etc rules (aka the Jake Thornton "Why Was I Asked To Write These Expansion Rules When Alessio Wrote The Main Rules" gaffes)

I hope the Rules Committee that has been working on this hasn't lost sight of "simple = superior".

We absolutely haven't lost sight of that. Our guiding principle has been "Evolution, not revolution". The core and special rules run to the same length that they currently do.

Mymearan wrote:
Anecdotally, how do Mantic products sell after their massive Kickstarters? Do they tend to catch on and keep holding, or are they mostly flashes in the pan?

About a half dozen players, maybe a full dozen in the Phoenix, AZ area.
Thing is, most of those players don't buy the stuff locally. They back KS heavily and/or buy any other models they are looking for at deep discount on-line.
I've noticed this results in a glut of models that never get built/played with and/or that show up for a couple dimes to the dollar at second hand sales sponsored by local FLGS.

Unsurprisingly, FLGS don't stock what they can't sell and so any new players are likely to buy low cost stuff from folks who went KS heavy or on-line.
I'm aware of two game stores that have Mantic product (one has a single DZ box and the other has a DB team and about 4 MVP blisters) locally.
They will special order Mantic, upon request, but that means paying full MSRP plus 9% sales tax. It appears they have low/no volume on that front.

The KS focus is great for environments where a local club buys in.
It is less viable for markets that rely on FLGS (for the FLGS) because stores just can't realistically sell the stuff w/o losing nearly all their profit.
Without stuff on the shelf, players are harder to recruit and store owners are less than enthusiastic about sponsoring game play that nets them little/nothing.

PS - When we were running a DB league, I had a couple of extra teams that I offered up for FREE - the only proviso being the new owners would just join us for some games during a 6 week series. Couldn't give them away.

 Catyrpelius wrote:
I'm not sure I can justify backing this after the junk I received from their first KoW Kickstarter. Those plastic Goblins were horrible.

Rule of thumb for KS: "Never back a creator's first project".

While thumbs were meant to be broken seems like waiting for v.2 for KoW was the right move here.

This might give me the motivation to start up Kings of War now! Already have a small token force of Orcs and Fireforge Crusaders, so I can build up more of the Orcs.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.

Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.

KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.

I very much beg to differ, but only in regards to the multi-basing.

Multi-basing is a huge issue - and if the game tries to force it then it will not be played. Even as an option it seems unwieldy and limiting.

The context of my comment was that "multi-basing is not an issue holding up the development of Warpath".

 agnosto wrote:
Miniature Market regularly sells off their stock of Mantic at insanely cheap prices; one would assume (dangerous I know) that this is because it's not moving particularly well and is eating up warehouse space.

Miniature market have done that for everything Mantic true, but also for Warmahordes, for Dropzone Commander, for Spartan Games stuff, they're even doing right this very second for 40k stuff.

They're just a weird store.

 Baragash wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
I'm a little frustrated by how long warpath is taking but I think Mantic are still trying to make multibasing work. I can only guess how successful that's been.

Multi-basing is not really an issue, and has/is going to be written in such a way that players can take it or leave it.

KoW still isn't finished yet and that's just tweaks to an existing game, so TBH anyone getting frustrated that WP hasn't been finished in the same time frame isn't being realistic.

I very much beg to differ, but only in regards to the multi-basing.

Multi-basing is a huge issue - and if the game tries to force it then it will not be played. Even as an option it seems unwieldy and limiting.

The context of my comment was that "multi-basing is not an issue holding up the development of Warpath".

Gotcha

 Daedleh wrote:
Campaign rules are on the rules committees to-do list, but they may be better suited to being in a supplement rather than in the main hardback. We're looking at really fleshing out the world and trying to give every race "the Basilean treatment" in terms of depth in the hardback, so we might run out of pages for the siege/campaign rules.

Speaking as a KoW player, I'd rather see more useful rules than fluff. Campaign (and working siege) rules being the top of that list, along with more scenarios - since I'm using ones taken from WHFB rulebooks at this stage to make the games more interesting. Hell, I;d be happy if you split the book into two - a rulebook and a fluff book aka 40k 2nd edition. That way I don't have to carry the fluff around with me when I'm trying to play the game.

I would be interested in an updated improved rule book. That's all I would be after though doubt it would gone interested in any models.

 Daedleh wrote:
Yes and yes.

Standards and musicians have both been sorted and hordes are on our todo list starting next week. Hordes generally just need a points drop and their army selection improved (more slots for heroes/war engines/monsters than regiments).

Also Ogre hordes.

I like the sound of all of those things.

Anything on shooting from/at higher ground? Using TLOS (a "soft" rule) when we have "hard" rules for most everything else in an element-based game that encourages unit basing, creative basing (mini-dioramas) and proxied models is just silly, to put it politely.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Excellent! Good stuff then!

I'd like to see larger creatures or things like that added (so I have a use for the GW miniatures I have bought but won't be using for Warhammer any more). But that's just wishlisting at the moment I reckon.

I agree on that, actually. Some more profiles that can be made to counts-as for the cooler out-there WHFB stuff like Demigriffs, as well as some of all those Reaper Bones monsters (Undead Giant! Riderless Griffons, etc). Not to mention the possibility of some other "official" human army list variants so I can effectively use my Romans and WotR armies, making them a little more distinct.

I know Mantic want KoW to be it's own game and not just ProxyHammer, but more counts-as options for Chaos Warriors and Beastmen players than "just use the Orc list" for both. (or KoM for Chaos) will get more players joining in. Split Elves into High and Wood? Or just add some more unit options so both have some more units in the "Elf" force.

 Azazelx wrote:

I like the sound of all of those things.

Anything on shooting from/at higher ground? Using TLOS (a "soft" rule) when we have "hard" rules for most everything else in an element-based game that encourages unit basing, creative basing (mini-dioramas) and proxied models is just silly, to put it politely.


I agree on that, actually. Some more profiles that can be made to counts-as for the cooler out-there WHFB stuff like Demigriffs, as well as some of all those Reaper Bones monsters (Undead Giant! Riderless Griffons, etc). Not to mention the possibility of some other "official" human army list variants so I can effectively use my Romans and WotR armies, making them a little more distinct.

I know Mantic want KoW to be it's own game and not just ProxyHammer, but more counts-as options for Chaos Warriors and Beastmen players than "just use the Orc list" for both. (or KoM for Chaos) will get more players joining in. Split Elves into High and Wood? Or just add some more unit options so both have some more units in the "Elf" force.

TLOS is gone. I posted something very similar to how the new system works a while back: http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?6006-Suggested-Rule-Amendment-Line-of-sight

Almost as if Alessio copied me

I understand the desire for the WHF counts-as but that is something that Mantic are really, really moving away from. Any new units will be uniquely Mantic units.

Having said that, I suspect members of the rules committee would be up for doing a "fan" list. While it wouldn't be official and usable in tournaments, they would be pretty well balanced.